The difference between the Christian God/religion and others

so you know why bulls and rams were sacrificed? and you know where these sacrifices were done?why do you call them lambs?

however, the quran contradicts itself in many places..for instance they claim to believe in an all powerful god (since they say the believe in the god of the bible) yet that he cannot become human..they also say jesus was a great prophet, but he claimed to be god, and would therefore be a false prophet..i could name many more

I wouldn't recommend playing the "contradictory scripture" card . Glass houses, throwing stones, and all that.

I am not Islamic, but just to cover your example points. There are two takes on your first. Regardless of what God can do, Islam sees no reason to think God would want to become one of his own creatures. And the second take invokes the usual rash of "all-power" paradoxes. The main distinctive one in Islam is that God is a different order of being from his creatures, so the phrase "man who is God" is like "square which is circle," it simply doesn't refer.

That also partially covers your second point: they don't see Jesus making the claim in question, since (among other reasons) there is no such claim to be made. Their take on it is that his followers misunderstood and mishandled his message, just like what happened with all the other prophets, back to Adam. That is why Mohammed had a mission, to straighten all that out.

Again, not my brand of woo, but not the easy target you want to make of it, either.

like that circumcision should be on the 8th day..this happens to be when a clotting agent ( prothrombin ) is elevated to an abnormal height and is the only time this happens..

Assuming that that is true, then they would have found out what they needed to know, when to do it, the same way we do, by empirical "clinical trials." That is, if there is some benefit to waiting a week, and you circumcise every baby boy, then at some point you will notice that those altered on the eighth day recover from the trauma better than those altered earlier or later.

There is nothing in the Bible about clotting agents, nor would you have to know why something works better to know that it works better.

You may also recall that Hebrew ritual was very concerned and squeamish about spilled blood. If what we are talking about is a clotting agent, then this is a group that was disposed to notice what procedures got the job done with the least uncleanliness.

debt had to be paid even after death..

Really? You just criticized Islam for limiting the prerogatives of an all-powerful God, but from you, he can't forgive debts? But he can forgive sins, of course. Uh, huh.

and man dont get me on roman catholics haha..they are idolatrous the way i see it..i mean i could interpret idolatry wrong but it looks that way to me..

Well, that's fine. Your post invited discussion of what was distinctive about your take on Christianity compared with other religions. So, I pointed out the comparison.

You do realize, of course, that neither Roman Catholics nor Eastern Orthodox believe that they are idolaters. And they read the same Bible you do, plus or minus a few Old Testament books and the odd chapters of Daniel that nobody seems to know what to do with - none of which has anything to do with how the pertinent Commandment should be read.

It is not without pain that I thus find myself in some agreement with moocowman, that readings of scripture are highly variable among different readers. I suspect that, as with other readings, what you get out of it is partially dependent on what you bring to it.

"but you must obey me. you must obey all my commands. If you refuse to obey all my laws and commands, you have broken our agreement. If you do that I will cause terrible things to happen to you. I will cause you to have disease and fever. They will destroy your eyes and kill you."
Leviticus 26:14-16
wow. love?

"the rabbit chews the cud, but does not have a split hoof"
Leviticus 11:6
this is god speaking here. Rabbits do not chew cud.

"Tell the people of israel this: if anyone curses his god, he is guilty of sin. Anyone who speaks against the lord must be put to death."
Leviticus 24:15-16
don't have a free thought.




"...and they might lead the people of that city away from god. they might say, "let's go and worship other gods" (these are gods you have not know). Then you must ask about it. Look into the matter and check it carefully. IT might be true. IT may be proved that a terrible thing has happened among you. IF it has, then you must kill with a sword everyone who lives in that city. Destroy the city completely. Kill everyone in it, as well as the animals, with a sword."
Deuteronomy 13:13-15.
The destruction of cities I was talking about was not related to the nephilim. It's like that's god's solution for everything it doesn't like. kill it.
yhwh couldn't stop the "fallen angels" from mating with human females, but he could cause a flood to destroy their offspring and everything alive, save for the creatures on noah's boat? What kind of god is that? it just lets the devil run free? yhwh kills everything else against it, but it can't kill "the devil"?

reply to post by Ausar


they sacrificed the animals in remembrance of passover...this was an outward expression of their faith and devotion to god..i said lambs because that was preferred but if a family was not wealthy enough they would sacrifice something else

reply to post by resonance

you are choosing to not accept what im telling you...

No dude, you are the one not providing facts as claimed -

pressure people into my belief, i present them with the facts and let them make their decision as that is all i can do.

You have not presented any facts

first you wanted to know about why id claim that the bible states only belief is needed and that this is obvious.
[/quote

No I don't want to know why the bibles state anything, I can read.

Your belief is not presenting facts.

i give you john 3:16 which is really all you need but there are more verses..

Again there is no evidence that this charter actually existed so anything the character has to say is not a fact unless the character is referring to a fact that can be corroborated such as rain falls from the sky.

As we can see from the scriptures themselves, that this character is indeed uneducated and no doubt illiterate making it highly improbable that should the character have actually been a factual real person (which cannot be corroborated as fact) it is highly improbable that he could have written anything.

now you want to question john's existence..ill address that too...while i do not know for certain that it was john the evangelist who was an apostle of jesus

Now you introduce another character who does not have a corroborated factual place in history.

someone wrote this book..and since it was written within a lifetime of jesus' death and never questioned until modern times on who wrote it i will assume it was in fact john as there is no evidence to the valid evidence to the contrary..

again the evidence to the contrary is that John was an uneducated fisherman who is exceedingly unlikely to have written anything let alone texts in greek.

The earliest fragment is part of John’s gospel dated in the early 100s AD and that’s in the John Rylands Library in Manchester

Once again no facts but oppinions

reply to post by eight bits


well the bible does not contradict itself..any i have seen are easily cleared up with some study of history and the correct context of the passages.

i suppose they could have tested this, but according to the bible god is the one that told them to circumcise people, and if not then why did they begin this practice...the fact that the bible says to do it on the 8th day specifically is amazing...i suppose you could argue they could have tested it but there is no backup

i never said he couldnt forgive debts..he easily could..but as stated repeatedly throughout the bible he is a just god..so there must be consequences for our disobedience

and on your last piece..the only true interpretation of the bible is a literal one..one must open their mind and read it for what it says..now yes it makes use of figurative language, similes, symbolism and other figures of speech..but when it clearly states something one should not try to interpret it to suit ones beliefs but alter the beliefs to suit what is being stated (if you believe it)

Roman Catholicism has changed over the years drastically...they almost worship the pope and other saints..and as jesus said there is none good but god..they should not worship mary..she was no better than any other person..they are a more extremist type of christianity trying so hard to display their faith with huge displays of all kinds of symbols and stuff which jesus frowned upon..for example he told the jews in matt 23:5 that they made these big phylacteries just for people to see...we should not do this, because once we put emphasis on earthly things it quickly leads you away from god..this is what has happened to the catholics..the pope is always making new statements to fit in more with mainstream thought...

and about denominations..the reason there are so many is because people will take one passage fit it to their belief and build on that and it warps their view..this is what causes extremism in islam..i have a friend whos family is islamic i have known him since the 4th grace and they are the nicest people ever and frown upon what the radicals do..just as i frown on the crusades...

Originally posted by resonance
reply to post by moocowman

 

and again i did provide facts not sources...i encourage people to look at the things i said and go find out for themselves as that is the best way to learn as no one likes to listen to anyone or be told they are wrong..

[edit on 12-1-2010 by resonance]

And again you are not presenting facts but giving someone one of the bibles and saying "here you go try and disprove my claims."

Dude the world is not flat = Fact


The earth orbits around the sun = Fact

2 million jews (600000 of them armed men) were not kept as slaves in Egypt nor spend 40 years wondering around the desert complaining about the lack of food = As no one can prove a negative one can only as fro factual evidence to the contrary, something you seem to fail at.

i agree with every thing you have said it is a free gift people just need to ask for it through jesus i dont understand why people find that so hard and i still pray every night that every ones eyes will be opened to see what an udeserved and amazing gift it is and its free an there is no catch

reply to post by Dark Realms

"but you must obey me. you must obey all my commands. If you refuse to obey all my laws and commands, you have broken our agreement. If you do that I will cause terrible things to happen to you. I will cause you to have disease and fever. They will destroy your eyes and kill you."
Leviticus 26:14-16
wow. love

"Tell the people of israel this: if anyone curses his god, he is guilty of sin. Anyone who speaks against the lord must be put to death."
Leviticus 24:15-16
don't have a free thought.

please read the rest of chapter 26..this is exactly what starts false teaching..you picked a couple of verses (which you inaccurately quoted or changed to make sound worse) and did not read the full context of the passages..god continues to say that if they repent of their sins he will remember his covenant with them..also you must think of the people he said it to..people he was interacting with directly they should no better lol..

"the rabbit chews the cud, but does not have a split hoof"
Leviticus 11:6
this is god speaking here. Rabbits do not chew cud.

im glad you brought this up..this was used for years and has done nothing but to prove the bible right over science yet again

you see, rabbits do in a sense chew their cud..they eat food and then dispense little green pellets which they then eat..this is not the same as droppings which they also dispense but do not eat...so yes they do chew their cud and the bible was right about this thousands of years ago, unlike science

"...and they might lead the people of that city away from god. they might say, "let's go and worship other gods" (these are gods you have not know). Then you must ask about it. Look into the matter and check it carefully. IT might be true. IT may be proved that a terrible thing has happened among you. IF it has, then you must kill with a sword everyone who lives in that city. Destroy the city completely. Kill everyone in it, as well as the animals, with a sword."
Deuteronomy 13:13-15.

about this..God required a careful examination..and the city was to only be destroyed if it was completely 100% given over to idolatry..if only 99% of the people were idolatrous, only they would be punished and the city would remain for those who were faithful...the reason to completely demolish the city was so other tribes could not come in, claim a city idolatrous, and take it over, as it was to be given to the lord...the lord would spare a city for the sake of one person..such as with sodom and gomorrah..he removed the one righteous person (lot) before destroying it ....and again you must remember, these people new what god was capable of and that he was real to turn their backs on him would have just been stupid

The destruction of cities I was talking about was not related to the nephilim. It's like that's god's solution for everything it doesn't like. kill it.

again id like to propose that the nephilim and fallen angels had a larger role than we think..that they were the ones who let people to other gods..it honestly makes sense that these angels could do miraculous things and would be considered gods...

yhwh couldn't stop the "fallen angels" from mating with human females, but he could cause a flood to destroy their offspring and everything alive, save for the creatures on noah's boat? What kind of god is that? it just lets the devil run free? yhwh kills everything else against it, but it can't kill "the devil"?

he could have stopped them, but lucifer owns the planet now, god gave it to him when we fell...people could have chosen not to continue mating with nephilim and being sinful...and no i dont think god can kill the devil..not in our sense of the word..the second death is eternity in hell..this is what awaits lucifer..so yes he kills him, but not in our sense of the word..the spirit is eternal so..

reply to post by moocowman


im so tired of this lol..please explain to me specifically what facts you want

i present you with specific things the bible says..which is what a fact is..a source would be scriptural references which if you want one on something please ask..

my belief is in a literal interpretation of the bible, so if you challenge my belief believes provide your reasoning and show how i could be wrong instead of doing like most people and just saying i am wrong, as that does nothing to further the discussion..

you keep saying that john didnt exist...we arent talking about his name..we are talking about a person who wrote the book john correcT?...in which case yes..i can provide evidence..as you stated below the oldest piece from the NT is the Rylands Library Papyrus P52 which is dated to 125 A.D which shows the original gospel of john was written much earlier probably from 90-100 A.D. which is the accepted timeframe by most scholars..this would be around his life time as well as the time of people who would have known of the events he described...also, Polycarp the bishop of smyrna who is a historical person is considered to be John's disciple..

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

again the evidence to the contrary is that John was an uneducated fisherman who is exceedingly unlikely to have written anything let alone texts in greek.

The earliest fragment is part of John’s gospel dated in the early 100s AD and that’s in the John Rylands Library in Manchester

Once again no facts but oppinions

now it is not an opinion that the rylands papyrus is a copy of john..it is..the dating is not an opinion..its fact..so i do not know where you get that it is just an opinion..


you my friend are the one with nothing but opinions..i have repeatedly given you the reasoning for the things i have said and you in turn just spout nonsense to tell me i am wrong..

reply to post by digby888


yes..me too..it really saddens me the way the world has become and the way society is now days..i believe the return is soon though so that is comforting haha..god bless

reply to post by moocowman


i have said if anyone wants to know about anything in-particular they can ask and i will tell them..and all you ask for is facts..which i give you..repeatedly..i will from now on cite everything that i tell you..i would appreciate if you would please express why you believe what you believe and back up your claims as i have..you have yet to do so..all you do is say all of my posts are mere opinions and they are not..it is knowledge i have acquired through countless hours of study..i can link you to any of it..

well the bible does not contradict itself..any i have seen are easily cleared up with some study of history and the correct context of the passages.

Ah, yes, the "correct context of the passages." Do you suppose that Muslims are too dim to think of that one? They aren't.

And unless Judas died twice, Matthew and Luke (in Acts) call for some mighty fancy studying of history. Which Luke claims he already did, so they really can't both be right.

then why did they begin this practice

Ultimately, you would need to take that up with them. Circumcision, even today, is recommended as a public health measure, at least in some settings. It appears to decrease cervical cancer in women, for example, and may slow the transmission of HIV.

And, of course, a lot of guys and girls think that the magic wand simply looks better that way.

i never said he couldnt forgive debts..he easily could..but as stated repeatedly throughout the bible he is a just god..so there must be consequences for our disobedience

Funny, I thought there was something in there about merciful, too. Maybe I've just been juggling the Koran and the Bible too long, and got them confused. Allah is merciful, but God is not?

In any case, Jesus seemed to think that his dad could forgive. "Our Father who art in heaven, ... forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us... " So, was Jesus just blowing smoke, or can his dad actually do what I can do, no sweat?

As to the rest, my point wasn't that Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are right, but that they sincerely believe that they are right. And some of them are pretty sharp, so you just might want to think about that. Never hurt anybody to pause to reflect that the other fellow might have a point. And even if they are wrong, maybe it's worth really thinking about why they don't see it.

As for Muslims generally, I completely agree. I'm a happy camper.

Originally posted by resonance
Firstly i would like to start by saying i am obviously a Christian. I, however, am not your average Christian. I do not pressure people into my belief, i present them with the facts and let them make their decision as that is all i can do. I do not regularly attend church as i think in most churches Christianity is taught in a way to make people feel better about it. It is sugar coated and the desire to make others feel good and political correctness have caused many flaws to creep in to mainstream Christianity.

Now to the topic, i will first discuss a major misunderstanding about the Christian faith. While some religions main purpose is to explain the unexplainable Christianity is not. It is also not a code of ethics on how to live your life, as other religions are.

The TRUE purpose of Christianity as the Bible teaches it is the redemption of mankind and helping to lead others to accept God's free gift of salvation. We are to witness to others and try to help them get to know God on a personal level. Yes there was a law in the OT but that is not the PURPOSE of our religion and holds no weight when it comes to salvation and acceptance in to heaven.

The above is the whole point and purpose of the entire Bible. All other parts of it including the history, prophecy, etc. is extra information for those that have matured in their faith.

Now i will explain why the Bible is different than all other religious texts. The modern Bible consists of 66 books written by 40+ authors. These people were from various areas and some never met, yet there are no contradictions once the text is studied in the correct context and fully understood. The Bible also claims to predict the future, which it does with startling accuracy. No other book or prophet on Earth has come close to the track record the Bible has for very specific accurate predictions.

The Bible also comments on many facts of life that were rediscovered in modern times as new, yet were written thousands of years ago. Examples being crop rotation, the Earth is not flat, bathe in running water, atoms, and the water cycle just to name a few.

The Bible is a historical account, it is not fables written to explain the unexplainable or to explain why things are how they are or how we gained. This is clear when you understand the point as i presented it above.

The Bible is not about doing as God says and being a good little follower so as to go to paradise, because none of us do as he says and none of us deserve anything. It is not about heaven or hell. It is about YOUR soul and YOUR eternity. It is YOUR choice as to where you go. God gives us a very fair choice. He gives us the two choices, and only a fool would CHOOSE to go to hell when the alternative is just the simple acceptance of a gift.

I will gladly address any questions, thanks.

The true intention of the Bible is getting man to think they are unworthy of Gods love. This goes agaainst the very nature of what God is.

Just because there is real history in a book...doesnt make it all of the nature of God and what is Holy.

The idea that a man had to die is not spiritual and has no Holy grounds to stand on.

Those that feel something or someone had to die is sowing harsh seeds and they will only come back having to reap what they have sown.

I tell you truly, the blood is also on your hands, just believeing someone had to die.

You are to carry your own cross, man has tried to invent scapegaots for thousands of years, which heals nothing at all within man.

Its not that Jesus would not of been willing to carry everyone's wrongs on him...for his nature is a nature of offering. But this act would defeat the purpose of us reaping what we sow. Reaping what we sow is a law of spirit, its a must, its how we learn. Someone saving us teaches us nothing. Believing a man had to die is not of God. The animal sacrifices were also, not of God. God needs nothing of Earthly deaths for mans shortcomings. God only needs a true intention and honest heart and mind. If you dont understand such things, you dont understand things of Spirit.

They will be marked.

This goes beyond one religion...any religion that wants to kill for God, in any way, is not seeking the Spirit.

Man makes excuses for breaking the spiritual laws, over and over.

[edit on 12-1-2010 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by resonance


You said to MW....

first you wanted to know about why id claim that the bible states only belief is needed and that this is obvious..i give you john 3:16 which is really all you need but there are more verses..

So what do we learn, by just believing? How does that make anyone a better person?

We have purpose here...we must sift through and learn many experiences. We must own up for our wrongs here because this is how we really learn.

Just believing in something teaches us nothing.

It sounds great....and its also 'free'....but reality of the laws of spirit have a cycle and a process, God never intended for it to change, like man keeps trying to do. It was perfect, is perfect, and will be perfect.

If man still have attachments to Earth, it will show through their belief. Its not a bad thing, just a marker if they are ready to learn things of Spirit or not. If you cant understand things of Earth how can you understand things of heaven?

THIS IS MY RESPONSE TO YOUR EXODUS QUESTION

firstly i would like to address that again..historical setting must be taken in to account when studying the bible...if the exodus is such a bogus story i dont know why so many people have accepted it over the years..it should have died out early on..

this is a page explaining the discoveries of ron wyatt..i knew of these but wanted to find more evidence..he was an amateur archaeologist (just meaning he did not have a degree in archaeology) who found chariot parts embedded in coral on the underwater land bridge the jews would have had to cross on..users.netconnect.com.au...

i waited till i found more evidence as many of wyatts discoveries are controversial..of all of them though this one is honestly the most believable

Flavius Josephus who is a well known, well documented, and well accepted historian wrote of moses and the exodus..he had access to many writings that have since become lost..to argue that is ludicrous..now..he commented on the egyptian manetho, who is a factual historical figure, and who's historical documents are used to place egyptian kings in certain time slots...he is therefore a reliable historical figure..

www.touregypt.net...

the above page shows a translation of his writings..he says God smote the egyptians..it also shows josephus who had original copies (although yes some altered copies were created)..this page shows manetho speaking about moses and the jews...

This comes from an egyptian..

as i come across most historical evidence ill post it

reply to post by eight bits

Ah, yes, the "correct context of the passages." Do you suppose that Muslims are too dim to think of that one? They aren't.

And unless Judas died twice, Matthew and Luke (in Acts) call for some mighty fancy studying of history. Which Luke claims he already did, so they really can't both be right.

muslims can use that all they want lol..the problem is will it actually make sense..

now on the judas thing..yes this is an old contradiction i have heard before..this site www.tektonics.org...
does a good job of explaining why there seems to be a contradiction..it makes sense too..just falling on your head will not make your guts bust out..however if you are hung, no one removes you.. and you fall from a height..maybe..

on circumcision..all of the reasons you gave to be circumcised would not have been known..they would not have the means to study the anatomy of humans or diseases..and i think it looks better lol, but who in their right mind would randomly just up and do that..

Funny, I thought there was something in there about merciful, too. Maybe I've just been juggling the Koran and the Bible too long, and got them confused. Allah is merciful, but God is not?

yes god is merciful..he gives us a whole lifetime for a chance at redemption..you dont call that mercy?..and if allah is so merciful why does he say to kill the unbeliever that wont be converted..and dont bring god saying kill unbelievers to me i addressed that earlier in the thread..

of course god forgives..everyone is pretty much forgiven and given a chance to redeem themselves...but you have to have your sins washed away through the blood of christ..god has to be separate from sin..its that simple

oh and i was not trying to be mean spirited toward them..i just think they should believe the whole bible and not pick and choose parts of it..also they should not change their beliefs to suit the mainstream which they have done..if they read the bible literally they would see the follies of their ways i think..it seems to me they tend to take the bible as a to do list, they have all their rituals and symbolism and ..and not guide on salvation for the soul

reply to post by LeoVirgo


we are not meant to learn a lesson..the point was for the sin debt to be paid..and no the point is not just to make us feel unworthy..yes that comes with accepting that you cant do anything yourself and needed jesus to die for you..i addressed earlier in the thread how the kinsman redeemer works and why jesus had to die for our sins and we could not do anything to save ourselves..

and of course the animal sacrifices werent for god..but as the jews had no redeemer yet, they had to show their faith in some way..it was a model of the crucifixion..the bible has models all through it..the jewish feats are models as well..take passover for example..

i never claimed that man having to die to pay the debt for sin is spiritual...physical death is a result of sin...spiritual death (going to hell) is a result of rejecting gods gift of salvation...so yes, for our soul to be cleansed of sin we had to have a sinless person die..to pay the debt we owed god from the beginning

reply to post by LeoVirgo


yes..the bible does give ways to live..my point was that living right does not get you in to heaven..all you need to do that is to believe jesus sinless and died for our sins

but yes the bible does give great ways to live..the laws he gave the jews were remarkable, they kept everyone fair and cut out a lot of greed and envy..also as i said earlier he told them about crop rotation which is needed..to bathe in running water... etc...yes the bible provides direction for every aspect of life, but you dont have to do any of it to be forgiven of your sins and get in to heaven

but if one is truly saved the holy spirit is said to convict them with they sin and make them want to repent..and i can testify that it does

reply to post by resonance

well the bible does not contradict itself.

Really ?


How many women came to the sepulcher? John 20:1 Only one woman went, Mary Magdalene.

Matthew 28:1 Mary Magdalene and the "other Mary" (Jesus’ mother) went.

Mark 16:2 It was sunrise when the two women went to the sepulcher.
John 20:1 It was still dark (before sunrise) when Mary Magdalene went alone to the sepulcher.

There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulcher and they were standing up. Luke 24:4

There was only one angel seen and he was sitting down. Mark 28:2-5

How many angels were within the sepulcher? John 20:11-12 two,
Mark 16:5 one.

Once you've rationalized them away be prepared fo a squillion more