Challenge to Creationists:

Originally posted by Shane

Originally posted by skunknuts

Originally posted by randyvs
Intelligent Design here.

I actually believe that intelligent design does have a place in our current schema of understanding,.....

A Challenge?

I'll bite.

And to begin, just what the hell are you to speaking about here. Biblical Creation!

That was toooo Easy.

Intelligent Design? What is more Intelligent that GOD?

It seems your problem stems from your FAITH, in little green men, apposed to, how did you put it, the faith of "radical biblical/koranical/new-earth creationists" and their GOD.

Now to be clear, I do not believe in Little Green Men, since there is no evidence of them, but I do believe in an Alien presense. An Alien is ANYTHING that is NOT OF THIS EARTH, and if you had not caught on by now, this is what the Bible and it's Original Sources speaks of.

GOD and the Angels are exactly what is defined as an Alien. (I'd give GOD a Pass on this somewhat, since GOD Created everything, but that's another topic.)

NOW that I have had my fun, what is your difficulties with "Creationism"?

I see nothing in the Bible that contradicts anything Science has to offer in respects to Origins, and as a matter of FACT, I see the "MISSING LINK" Science wishes to simply ignore. Obivously you too, have.

I DO NOT believe the impression of the Term "DAY" is specific to a 24 Hour Period of Time. I believe it is used in the manner of expressing an AGE or ERA.

I DO NOT believe the Earth is some 6-7000 Years old. The Only thing this old is ADAM and his descendants. Adam is Created to Garden, and is Created after the Day of Rest.

I DO believe MAN, re-created on the 6th day (Age/Era?) was here for thousands of years. How many, is speculation. My guess is 24000 - 14000 years ago. Anything Science points to older than this (the 6th Day) is not "Man" in the Image of GOD and the Angels.

I DO believe in the leviatan and behemouths Science refers to as Dinosaurs.

I DO believe we have no TRUE idea of the EXACT age of the Universe, but "IN THE BEGINING" would have definately been then. I have some problems with "Dating Equipment" because we a dealing with "Knowns" as we consider them today, and based upon this, the Machinery and Equipment constructed and calibrated for dating are tested against "KNOWN" conditions. I would argue, prior to the Flood, we had a Firmament seperating the Waters from the Waters and the Land. I believe this is why we had the Flora and Fauna Science indicates once flourished on the planet. BUT I have no difficulties in accepting the Silicate Datings done recently and utilizing these as some BEST GUESS Origin date. It's not a FACT though. Just the Best Guess.

I DO NOT believe the "CREATION" Account in Genesis is a CREATION account. IT IS A RECREATION ACCOUNT.

Now that I have expressed my BIAS I have in respects to this matter, would I be accepted as a Supporter of what the Bible Indicates about the Genesis of things?

Because, I do fully support exactly what the Bible expresses as FACT.

Interpetations are another matter, and that becomes the realm of man, and has nothing to do with the letter GOD inspired and left for us.

The Story is there and is quite easy to follow.

It is the Doctrines and Theologies and Dogmas that MAN makes up, that is the Problem.

I am sorry YEC'ers.

Logic is a GOD given tool we have been blessed with.
Please utilize this GOD given blessing, and read and study the BIBLE.
Do not seek the interpetations of a Sect or Cult of Christainity for example.
Ask God for understanding and study yourself.

After all, GOD is SUPERNATURAL, so it's only NATURAL we can see NATURE in his work.

If it is an UNnatural condition, that is the problem, then maybe, just maybe, it is BABEL (confusion) and the Originator of this, is the Dragon, that old seprent, the Devil, Satan.

Confusion has NOTHING to do with GOD.

Other than that, have a good day

Ciao

Shane

I'm not sure what Bible you are reading but show me where it says God re-created the heavens and the earth? If you are referring to The Flood, the Earth was never obliterated it was just flooded with water; killing everything that wasn't on the Ark. You can look at it whipping the slate clean, though. God didn't create anything after the Flood so I guess I don't understand how you can see it as a re-creation.

Adam was created on the 6th day BEFORE the day of rest. He also lived to be 930 years old so he isn't 6-7,000 years old or close to it as it seems you are implying. I agree with your other points though except the whole re-creating the Earth, unless I missed something.

[edit on 10-5-2010 by novastrike81]

Originally posted by novastrike81
I'm not sure what Bible you are reading

Generally, the 1611 King James Bible

but show me where it says God re-created the heavens and the earth?

Here's a Link to review. Try this, and if this isn't satisfactory, or you have questions, I'd be pleased to answer then. This link is Titled Chronology of Creation in the Bible... it doesn't start in Genesis! and it gives you a decent breakdown of Events.

And Again, I be more than pleased to answer anything you wish about this, but thought saving space rather than repeating information already presented would best suit the Mod's.

If you are referring to The Flood,

Of course I do not mean the Flood.

Adam was created on the 6th day BEFORE the day of rest.

Well, here I get to ask you, What Bible are you reading?

Day Six and Seven

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Now, there is no Gardener, No man to TILL the earth noted here in either day 6 or Day 7. There is Hunter Gather's securing and maintaining Life through harvesting the Fruits of the Trees and Herbs and Plants, as well as the Fowls and the Fish and the things that Moveth over the Earth. But no Gardener.

Of Course, day 7 is a rest day. Nothing is done.

After this, a strange set of words are expressed, which you may have overlooked in the Past. They namely being...

2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Now, I am not clear are where you live, but someone who tills the ground is a Gardener, and/or Farmer. Not a Hunter/Gatherer as noted previously.

He also lived to be 930 years old so he isn't 6-7,000 years old or close to it as it seems you are implying.

I am implying that 6000 to 7000 Years ago, the Only things created where Adam, and later Eve. Prior to this, Day Six, (whatever a Day may be) was the end of Recreation.

I agree with your other points though except the whole re-creating the Earth, unless I missed something.

Well first I trust the Link Above helps. It is BIBLICALLY ACCURATE. Second, any questions about anything you may have, feel free to ask. I may offer Links or answer directly. But it is upto you to decide the matter for themselves. I am not telling you what to think. That's for you to do. I just try to plants seeds.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Shane

It's called a subliminal message; this means the first verse says what God did and the remaining 55 verses states how God did it. Picking and choosing your own verses takes away the meaning. If you read the rest of chapter 2 you will see how God prepared the Garden for Adam and then how God creates Adam and then Eve in more detail.

Genesis 1:26-27
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day

Right there it says He created Adam and Eve on the sixth day. In chapter 2 He says HOW He does it. For the record I read the King James Version and that's quoted from KJV. Maybe it doesn't occur to people that maybe God wanted to tell us how He made the garden and us?

You're entitled to your belief but if you think we were re-created then why would God destroy us and create us again? If we were perfect the first time there would be no need to make us again in chapter 2. Unless you can show a verse where it says man wasn't good enough for God in chapter 1 or 2; but I don't think such a verse exists.

Then again, it doesn't say that there weren't other men created at the time. Adam is just the one God chose to represent. So it's still all based on interpretation. Unless we read the original Hebrew text, I doubt we as Christians will never come to an agreement on everything written down.


[edit on 10-5-2010 by novastrike81]

I've attended a number of Creationist lectures just to see what they have to say and I have to say that this video was an accurate representation of what goes on at these lectures.

The main part missing from the video is the intentional lies stated in the lectures I have been to. Let me tell you about one example.

In a lecture I attended I was the only person that did not arrive without a bible in hand. Towards the end of the lecture the speaker went on a long winded rant about Aldous Huxley and his support of Darwinism to vindicate his lascivious lifestyle as a homosexual. He spoke for a while on this topic and and mention Aldous by name probably 10 times. There was no mistaking who he was talking about.

Here is the lie. Aldous was not the support of Darwinism. It was Thomas Huxley also known as Darwin's bulldog. It was very clear to me that this was a cheap shot and overt and indisputable lie told to support the case of the speaker. Since this was towards the end of the lecture I truly believe that many of the attendees went home with the fallacious believe that Darwinian theory is a false construction to support lifestyles they may not agree with.

That was not the only lie told by this speaker. He claimed to have a photograph of a heel print smashing a trilobite. He had the photo on the screen above him. He turns and looks up and states a blatant lie, "Sorry, I have a better photo of this that shows the stitches of the sandal. If you'd like to see it write to me and I'll mail you a copy." I did and the same blurry image was sent to me. Who could be so stupid as to believe that a speaker shows up with a bad photo and then claims that he should have brought the better photo?

Not only do YECs, young earth creationists, lie about evolution and the various theories, but they directly lie about the so-called evidence they show to their believers.

"One of the points at which your pride founders in error--which, above all, degrades precisely your haughtiness by giving you an origin that, if you were less corrupted by pride, you would repudiate as degrading--is that of Darwin's theory.

In order not to admit God, who, in His power, was able to have created the universe from nothing and man from the already created mud, you take the paternity of a beast as your own.

Don't you realize you are diminishing yourselves, for--consider this--won't a beast--no matter how exemplary, selected, improved, and perfected in form and instinct, and, if your wish, even in mental formation--always be a beast? Don't you realize this? This testifies unfavorably regarding your pride as pseudo-supermen.

But if you fail to realize, I will not be the one to waste words to make you aware of it and converted from the error. I ask you only one question which, in your great numbers, you have never asked yourselves. And if you can answer Me with facts, I will no longer combat this degrading theory of yours.

If man is a spin-off from the monkey, which by progressive evolution has become man, how is it that over so many years in which you have maintained this theory you have never succeeded, not even with the perfected instruments and methods at present, in making a man from a monkey? You could have taken the most intelligent offspring of a pair of intelligent monkeys and then their intelligent offspring, and so on. You would now have many generations of selected, instructed monkeys cared for by the most patient, tenacious, and sagacious scientific method. But you would still have monkeys. If there happened to be a mutation, it would be this: the beasts would be physically less strong than the former ones and morally more degenerate, for, with all your methods and instruments, you would have destroyed that perfection of the monkey which My Father created for these quadrumans.

Another question. If man came from the monkey, how is it that man, even with grafts and repugnant forms of cross-fertilization, does not become a monkey again? You would be capable even of attempting these horrors if you knew that it could give approvative sanction to your theory. But you do not do so because you know that you would not be able to turn a man into a monkey. You would turn him into an ugly son of man, a degenerate, perhaps a criminal. But never a real monkey. You do not try because you know beforehand that you would get a poor result and your reputation would emerge therefrom in ruins.

For this reason you do not do so. For no other. For you feel no remorse or horror over degrading a man to the level of a beast to maintain a thesis of yours. You are capbable of this and of much more. You are already beasts because you deny God and kill the spirit, which distinguishes you from the beasts.

Your science causes Me horror. You degrade the intellect and like madmen do not even realize you are degrading it. In truth, I tell you that many of the primitive are more men than you are."

[edit on 11-5-2010 by Jahosaphat]

August 26

Jesus says:

"The beauty, power, and strength of faith are such that only in Heaven will you be able to understand it's fullness. Here below you have merely a pale reflection of it, even in the souls most suffused with Faith. But reflection is already so vast that is suffices to provide orientation for a whole life and lead it straight to Me.

"I am speaking of Faith. Of true Faith. Of my Faith. There is only one God; there is only one Christ; there is only one Faith.

"This true Faith which was born with man, and inhabitant of the Earth, the only flower in the desert and the exile of the first man born of him, which became perfected over the centuries, drawing fullness from my coming, the seal--which does not lie and cannot be belied--upon the faith of the patriarchs and prophets, this Faith--of which the Church is the guardian, the repository of the treasures of the Word--is not changeable, for it shares its Creator's attributes of immutability and perfection.

"Look closely. What did Faith assure the ancient fathers of? My coming, such an excelling act of charity that it alone suffices to make people sure of God, the Father of the human race. It gave assurance of the eternal life reserved for all those who have died in the Lord and announced eternal punishment for the transgressors against the Law of the Lord. It gave assurance of our Triune Being. It gave assurance of the existence of the Holy Spirit, from whom every supernatural spiritual light comes.

"What has ensured the Faith of Christians for the last twenty centuries? The same things. Have I perhaps modified the Faith? No. Rather, I have confirmed it and built around it the stronghold of my Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church, in which there is the Truth deposited by Myself.

"Until the last day and the last man the Faith is and remains 'that.' There cannot be another. For if you tell Me that the world is evolving, I reply to you that this is evolution is not an obstacle to the Faith, but, rather, should make it increasingly easy for you to believe.

"To believe does not mean to be gullable. To believe is to accept and comprehend, according to the light of intelligence, what is said to you by those who have never lied: the Holy Ones of God, beginning with the patriarchs; to believe is to understand in the light of Grace, which I have brought to you, full and superabundant, what still remains obsure to the intelligence. To believe is, above all, to love. Credulity is foolish. To believe is holy because it is for one's spirit to be obedient to the Lord's mysteries.

"Blessed are those who do not alter their faith. Blessed are those who remain faithful to the Lord. Light upon light is Faith in a being. Things, all things--whether supernatural or natural--are revealed in a light of truth, unknown to the incredulous, and the soul rises to heights of love, veneration, peace and security.

"No, human words cannot describe what Faith is in a heart. Neither can those who believe understand what an abyss of terror, darkness, and annihilation a heart devoid of Faith is.

"But never judge your unfortunate incredulous brothers and sisters. Believe for their sake as well. To make reparation for their negations. I alone judge. I alone condemn. I alone reward. And I alone know how I would like only to reward, for I love you. I love you to the point that to be able to save you I died for you, for all of you. And you cannot give Me a greater joy than to save your souls, to let Me save them. And you cannot give Me greater sorrows than to want to lose souls by rejecting my gift of salvation.

"Now consider, Maria, how much pain your Jesus feels. Your Jesus, who sees souls perishing like flowers burned up by a fiery wind speeding up its work of destruction day by day. In truth I tell you that this is much more painful than the barbarous flagellation.

"Your Jesus is weeping, Maria. Let us weep together over the poor souls that want to die.

[edit on 11-5-2010 by Jahosaphat]

November 27

Jesus says:

"Words disturb the atmosphere where God lives. Nor, for the just, are words needed for them to be convinced of the presence of God and of the wonderful effects of that presence in a heart.

"Either one believes, or one does not. If you have God in you, you believe, for you feel God, beyond the veils of the flesh, living in a creature. If you do not have God, no word can make you convinced of the fusion of God with a human heart. It is faith that gives the capacity to believe, and it is the possession of God that gives the possibility of seeing God living in one of your fellows. God's mystery, God's reasons cannot be explained with a human method. Only by living humbly in the supernatural can you see--through the fissure opened by Goodness, for you--the spiritual relations and the enrapturing contacts between a soul and God.

"Like sparks dancing in a fire, the creatures chosen by God for ecstasy live in a feast of splendors, in a roar of divine flames, of a fusing of the spark with the flame to live, be inflamed, and inflame more and more. Nourishment which is nourished at the Center of Love, they bear their love to Love and increase in its glory, and from that Love they draw their own life and glory.

"Mary had the most Holy Fire in Herself and was fire. And teh laws of life were almost annulled by this living with burning passion. And the more the fire approached to turn into the newborn Flesh, the more they were annulled, so that in the blessed moment of my appearing in the world She sank into ecstasy, into the splendor of the Center of Fire, from which She emerged bearing in her arms the Flower of Love, passing from the voices of the divine Flame to the angelic melodies, from the blazing of the Trinity, contemplated to the point of fusion, to the vision of the angelic choirs descending to make the announcement to the Earth and the promise of Peace and to form a ring around the Queen Mother, the Mother of the King of kings, and after having embraced God with her enraptured spirit, She embraced the Son of God, her Son, with her arms, which did not know the embrace of man."

"we've got thousands of years of 100% consistent non-intervention from an invisible middle eastern deity plus a self proclaimed infallible text written by cattle sacrificing iron age superstitious nomads"

lol, classic

I know it's a caricature of the debate creationist make, but it's pretty funny and reasonably well written.

Also, if we had 747 creating tornadoes, we'd have a much more affluent Midwest

Nice

Peace
KJ

reply to post by Jahosaphat

Don't you realize you are diminishing yourselves, for--consider this--won't a beast--no matter how exemplary, selected, improved, and perfected in form and instinct, and, if your wish, even in mental formation--always be a beast? Don't you realize this?

Evolution is not a directed process. You don't really make that claim here, but I thought I'd double check on that point.

And if you can answer Me with facts, I will no longer combat this degrading theory of yours.

Isn't that what the video stated?

If there happened to be a mutation, it would be this: the beasts would be physically less strong than the former ones and morally more degenerate, for, with all your methods and instruments, you would have destroyed that perfection of the monkey which My Father created for these quadrumans.

This is one of the typical fallacies used by Creationist. I would point out the mutations that allow a disease to avoid death from antibiotics to be a good example of how mutations are beneficial to an organism. It's not so good for us, but it sure is good for the organism we call a disease.

But you do not do so because you know that you would not be able to turn a man into a monkey.

It would take potentially millions of years to do this. You know that to be the case. Evolution happens to a species not an individual. If we use creatures with shorter life spans we can induce evolutionary changes. Think MRSA.

You are already beasts because you deny God and kill the spirit, which distinguishes you from the beasts.

I see. Isn't dehumanizing the enemy one of the preludes to war?

reply to post by skunknuts



Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence (proof) of things not seen.


The reason why a lot of "young Earth" creationists believe the way they do is because that's how they have been taught. However, a closer look into the scriptures tells you that the Earth, the waters, and sky were already here when God said, "Let there be light". The Bible is the book of the relationship between God and Man and so it tells of that account. God however, has been creating since the universe was made. He is not limited by the account of mankind. He is eternal. The Earth is billions of years old.








[edit on 11-5-2010 by Fromabove]

reply to post by Jahosaphat


Actually Jesus didn't say these words. You copied this text from:
Maria Valtorta, Notebooks 1943, p. 512, 515-6

So who is this Maria Valtorta
Maria Valtorta - wikipedia

Maria Valtorta (14 March 1897 – 12 October 1961) was a Roman Catholic Italian writer and poet, considered by many to be a mystic. Her work centers on Catholic Christian themes. Her followers believe that she had personally conversed with Jesus Christ in her visions of Jesus and Mary.

So these aren't the words of Jesus. They are the words of someone who imagined talking to Jesus.

I'm sorry are these facts bad to mention to you?

Originally posted by stereologist
reply to post by Jahosaphat

 

Actually Jesus didn't say these words. You copied this text from:
Maria Valtorta, Notebooks 1943, p. 512, 515-6

So who is this Maria Valtorta
Maria Valtorta - wikipedia

Maria Valtorta (14 March 1897 – 12 October 1961) was a Roman Catholic Italian writer and poet, considered by many to be a mystic. Her work centers on Catholic Christian themes. Her followers believe that she had personally conversed with Jesus Christ in her visions of Jesus and Mary.

So these aren't the words of Jesus. They are the words of someone who imagined talking to Jesus.

I'm sorry are these facts bad to mention to you?

You quote wiki, I quote what I read, from the finest words you will ever know.

Maria Valtorta quite correct.

Here's another excerpt just for you.

Jesus says:

"You are concerned about protracting what you call 'living' which would more properly be called 'waiting' and you are not concerned about waiting in such a way as to conquer for yourselves true Life which never perishes."

"You are concerned about everything in this dark period, which seems so luminous to you, of your stay on earth--which I have already explained to you as being like a gestation in order to be given to the Light, to Life-- and look with horror at the tomb, a dark hole where this body of yours, which you love, as the idolaters you are, return to the truth of its origin: mud. Mud from which there is released a flame, a light: the soul."

"This is what gives worth to the body, O foolish men. The soul which is the gift of God, the spirit which is the manifestation of God and which has a worth in the face of which that of the flesh is a paltry nothing."

"But how can you, who call yourselves Christians, not remember the words of Christ, of the Word, of Truth? Didn't I tell you, 'Whoever wants to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses it out of love for Me will save it'? Didn't I say, 'And what use is it for a man to gain the whole world if he loses his soul'? What will man give in exchange for his soul? Didn't I say, 'The grain of wheat which falls does not fructify unless it dies, but if it dies, it produces much fruit? And hasn't all of this opened the eyes of your spirit?"

"But, indeed, how can your spirit open its eyes if you have buried it under the stones of your carnality? It is like a martyr who has been stoned the flesh will die and the spirit will enter into glory, whereas you, on the other hand, stone your spirit and rob it of the Light here and in true Life."

No offense meant to the OP but I'm really getting tired of these threads that feel that they need to completely debunk creationism.

Question: which scenario seems like it wasn't miraculous creation, that the entire universe exploded from a ball the size of a needle's eye or that the world was created in seven days by God?

Whatever you believe there was still some outside (possibly greater) force that sparked the creation of everything you see around you so there's no point in debunking creationism. If they want to believe god did it 6000 or whatever years ago let them believe it because at least they have theories on what caused the bang.

reply to post by jacktherer


They have theories as the word is used in the vernacular, not in the scientific sense of the word.

Creationism is used in a sense that is more than creation. It is also used to describe the reason that the bible does not match reality. By that I mean the words of the bible describe a world not seen today. There was no worldwide flood. No evidence for exodus exists outside of the bible. The world is quite old. Life on earth appeared over an extended period of time. The list goes on and on.

It's no supposed to match reality.

Thank you for allowing me to post what I believe in, I do not believe as the 'today's' hard hitting Creationist's creationists theories. Because they base their theories on what is written already that has 'explained' to every man that he is a child of God, created by God Almighty. So there's really no point to staying on this topic.

To evolve then, means from God's definition to become 'perfect'. That's what evolve really means. But from a human science perspective, it means many things. that's why Creationists Cranked up to help Evolutions get more information to perfecting their science. The end or bottomline is so that Both, can enjoy and learn from each other. Not one side pointing at the other stating ambiguities to each other.

Jesus said to love our neighbors, this means to respect the other regardless of their ignorance to each others beliefs. To be charitable is what He also meant.

Now I find a forum takes time to type and by the time I finish typing I have to type again. I rather speak. But since this is available I make use of it. I'm not here to bash anyone and if I have offended anyone please forgive me and tell me so I can find an excuse to tell you.

I love God, and especailly Jesus Christ. A true love-- a supernatural higher love than what a regular man or woman experiences. You have to experience it in order to comprehend it. It is not a earthly love as you would think and see. It is a love of the soul. My soul finds My God, and He answers me. And He takes my poor soul and gives it gifts. He enlightens me. He teaches me. This is love. To know, and, to know means to be loyal and respectful as well. Loyalty. 'Love' means,--to be intimate, like a son to a father but more refined, creating an indissoluable link soul to Soul. Or spirit to Spirit. A true freedom. Lets get on with the next step.

Peace be with you always