Attack on Canada, U.S. is attack on Muslims: imams

Originally posted by Kailassa
Poppycock. You are not giving a link because no such advice exists in the Quran. It's just one more case of Anti-Islamism.

My only question is, are you knowingly lying, or are you repeating something you want to believe without bothering to research it.

Here's the Quran, just in case you'd like to see for yourself:

quod.lib.umich.edu...

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

How do we interpret these lines exactly? (Pasted directly from the source you mentioned.)

[3.156] O you who believe! be not like those who disbelieve and say of their brethren when they travel in the earth or engage in fighting: Had they been with us, they would not have died and they would not have been slain; so Allah makes this to be an intense regret in their hearts; and Allah gives life and causes death and Allah sees what you do.

How about these lines? What is the explanation for these? Read them carefully.

Also the following:

[3.168] Those who said of their brethren whilst they (themselves) held back: Had they obeyed us, they would not have been killed. Say: Then avert death from yourselves if you speak the truth.

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.

[edit on 13/1/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by Dark Ghost


You seem to conveniently skip over the part that specifies who they are fighting :

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.

Fight those who fight you... Not just anyone... And don't go overboard...

Magnum

reply to post by Dark Ghost

[3.156] O you who believe! be not like those who disbelieve and say of their brethren when they travel in the earth or engage in fighting: Had they been with us, they would not have died and they would not have been slain; so Allah makes this to be an intense regret in their hearts; and Allah gives life and causes death and Allah sees what you do.

This means "Muslims, don't be like the other people who are non Muslim who tell there people at home when they are abroad or fighting war "If they were not Muslim, they would not have been killed". Because of this Allah will make the non Muslim regret what they did/said because Allah decides who dies and who lives"

[3.167] And that He might know the hypocrites; and it was said to them: Come, fight in Allah's way, or defend yourselves. They said: If we knew fighting, we would certainly have followed you. They were on that day much nearer to unbelief than to belief. They say with their mouths what is not in their hearts, and Allah best knows what they conceal. [3.168] Those who said of their brethren whilst they (themselves) held back: Had they obeyed us, they would not have been killed. Say: Then avert death from yourselves if you speak the truth.

This is talking about the hypocrites who pretend to be Muslims... You need to read the lines above and below not just take lines at random and interpret them alone...

Magnum

Thanks for clearing that up

[edit on 13/1/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by Dark Ghost


No problem!

This example of the different interpretation of scripture is exactly the problem with extremism... Extremists read the scripture one way and moderates another. It's a very understandable situation, when it is not used with the purpose to harm people of course...

I know there are sections of the Quran, the Bible, and the Torah that seem violent or intolerant when looked at on their own. It's just the way it's taught and interpreted that makes the huge difference.

Peace,

Magnum

reply to post by Magnum007



Wow, Magnum. I am impressed.

You saw through the BS and interpreted the verses 100% correctly.

Those verses were referring to Muslims who were too cowardly to fight against the enemies that fought them. Hypocrites and false-Muslims.

They weren't talking about slaughtering disbelievers or anything like that.

reply to post by seattletruth


I just read the verses in their context. I don't believe that Dark Ghost was trying to BS, I just think he misread the verses. Just a misunderstanding...

Peace,

Magnum

Now those Imams are displaying honor, courage and pride.

Those statements would make this veteran proud to fight shoulder to shoulder with them as fellow countrymen and brothers!

Do you think that those "who fight Allah" is specifically those who attack Allah or those who believe in a different "God"... does it include those who don't believe?

Refreshing news that shows people care about people in general.

Hope it is in fact, a true statement.

That there is no answer to this is important.

In that people believe that because you cannot quote something directly from the Koran, that it doesn't matter. But this is not so.

There are co-sources to the Koran, and scholars who interpret. Scholars of this nature have a special place in Islamic society and law.

This is Shariah, that one first obtain an significant number in an area as a minority then press for Shariah.]

Shariah is NOT meant only for Muslims. It is the law of Allah, and it is meant for everyone. This is clearly laid out.

Peace is submission, and when you've submitted to this there will be peace. Equality is a function of dignity and not legal reality. Justice is the pursuit of putting things into their proper place, and those proper places for people are defined in the Koran and supporting co-sources. Evil is to question or act against Mohammed and Allah. Charity extends to ones brothers IN FAITH, and not to all. That social justice means to have people live with dignity as is appropriate to their resources. THEIR resources.

To live not as a Muslim is allowed. But it is TAXED. One way or another you will pay to not submit completely.

Not everything goes back to the Koran.

As a culture more familiar with the Bible, one might more suggest that the Koran would be like the Old Testament and the co-sources of the Koran like the gospels. This is a strained metaphor, but not everything goes directly and specifically back to the Koran. The Koran lays out a framework for ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE, from governance to how you wipe your bum. How to divide booty and how to be charitable.

There is no expectation that you need to BELIEVE to obey. You don't need to convert. Conversion is unnecessary, you however will submit to your proper place and be ruled as is defined by those ideas laid out in the Koran, and co-sources.

Originally posted by Aeons
reply to post by Kailassa

 

So you deny that this is Shariah. That once Muslims make up a large enough proportion of a population, they are required to bring about Shariah Law. That Muslim scholars - who hold a special place in Islamic cultures - have found that this is true repeatedly.

That Shariah Law is addresses all points of life and governance, and that a fundamental principle of Shariah law is that it is unquestionable and directed from The Quran.

[edit on 2010/1/13 by Aeons]