Only one percent of the Holocaust claims can be proven - Says Holocaust Scholar and Expert

Reasonable people largely don't respond to this Jew hatred trying to mask itself as historical inquiry.

One should understand the malicious practices of agenda driven pseudo-historians to deny what has been documented in a dozen countries by thousands of serious historians, researcher, even the Nazis and their scrupulous bookkeeping.

en.wikipedia.org...

Interestingly, a French priest has been traveling through the Ukraine and Belarus and interviewing locals hundreds of previously undocumented mass murder sites and first hand testimony of Nazi policies of providing one bullet to execute every Jew in the vicinity. There is a rethink that the number of Jews murdered by the Nazis may be even higher than the estimated 6 million.

www.jewishjournal.com...

In what was to become the pattern for his research, Desbois sought out the now aged farmers and officials who were children or adolescents during the Nazi invasion and asked whether they recalled the killings of their former Jewish neighbors.

Initially, the locals wouldn’t answer and said they couldn’t remember, but gradually, thanks to the authority of Desbois’ clerical collar and calm, non-judgmental approach, the stories came out.

For instance, in Rava-Ruska, one man recalled that the village boys used their carts to transport Jews to the killing site, which they quickly located for the investigators. In total, Desbois said, 1.5 million Jews were executed in the Ukraine and 500,000 in Belarus.

So far, Desbois and his team have interviewed 1,150 witnesses, videotaped more than 899 testimonies and located around 700 hitherto unidentified mass graves.

The priest travels with an interpreter, photographer, mapping specialist and a ballistics expert to analyze rusted bullet shells found at the killing sites.

By the evidence, the Germans were sparing of their ammunition under the standing order of “one bullet for one Jew, one Jew for one bullet.”

In some villages, local citizens supported and applauded the Nazi troops in their grisly task, in others farmers were drafted as diggers or for transportation, according to Desbois and reports on his Web site.

After some prodding, some witnesses recalled the massacres in complete detail, with one peasant asking Desbois, “Why are you coming so late? We have been waiting for you.”

In an unexpected discovery, the team learned that in some places German soldiers, ignoring their “racial purity” ideology, herded Jewish women into houses and raped them before executing them./ex]





[edit on 6-1-2010 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by mmiichael
Reasonable people largely don't respond to this Jew hatred trying to mask itself as historical inquiry.

I don't see any Jew hatred here at all. A Jewish scholar said this in the Toronto Star's article. So please tell me, where is the Jew hatred here at all? I'm and also the others are just curious, how is this possible that even a scholar who is teaching the Holocaust, who is expert in the Holocaust is saying this that even THEY CAN'T PROVE the 99% of the Holocaust at all.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by Sharrow]

Originally posted by mmiichael

Reasonable people largely don't respond to this Jew hatred trying to mask itself as historical inquiry.

I dont question the Holocaust , the actual number doesn't matter ,

it was wrong if it was 1 person or 6 million.

But why do you always play the "Jew Hatred" card???

It's about questioning history.

If I question 1 million Iraq deaths , Do I hate Iraqies

sometimes I get strange feeling that there non-jews support zionism more than jews them self..
hmm maybe it's just my imagination..

[edit on 6-1-2010 by Tim00]

reply to post by Tim00
That's a strange, but an interesting thought.

2nd line.

en.wikipedia.org...

Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis' systematic murder of millions of people in other groups, including ethnic Poles, the Romani, Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war, people with disabilities, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other political and religious opponents.[4] By this definition, the total number of Holocaust victims would be between 11 million and 17 million people.[5]

There's no room for any exaggeration when you take into account all of the different kinds of people the nazi's murdered, and the range of victims is a wide range (between 11 & 17 million). Nobody can ever claim to know exactly how many died, and even the occassional person thought to have died in the death camps was later discovered to be lucky enough to survive. We know from the harsh conditions from the few survivors and the liberating soldiers that not many would survive. There may not be physical proof of many millions who were buried in mass graves by the other concentration camp workers, or burnt, but unless they can all magically disappear then the only explanation is the missing are victims of the holocaust.

A labor camp is the same as a death camp when they are worked to death without proper food or anything at all, and if anyone stops for a rest were shot or hanged.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by john124]

I think the question is legitimate and should be looked at. We criticize people who scrutinize painful points in history and condemn those wishing to learn for themselves but why? I havn't heard a single person in this thread bash jews and why would they? This isn't about denying the holocaust at all this is about discussing a holocaust historians statement that a large part of the holocaust doesn't have a lot of proof. That could mean a lot of things.

It could be the physical evidence and documentation didn't survive the war. It could mean that newspapers used hyperbole in reporting on the camps. Not one person hear said the holocaust didn't happen.

Why is it this topic is always out of bounds? My grandfather a WW2 vet instilled in me the importance of questioning history and he helped liberate a camp.

Its sad that this discussion can't be treated scholarly and with respect.

Anways sorry for the rant OT:

Does the scholar mention specifically what it is about the Holocaust that has little sound evidence? Is it strictly the number of deaths and the demographics of the prisoners? or does it deal with the scope and breadth of the genocide as a whole? I think we can safely say that the camps existed and people did die horribly in them but what is it that becomes an uncertainty?

Is it in the details? Perhaps we should try and contact this man and post the question to him. The worst he can do is say no or ignore the request and the best case would be he helps shed some light on the issue.

Cheers

reply to post by thebulldog
That's an excellent idea. Does anyone know where can we find this guy? It would be good to know why he said this.



[edit on 6-1-2010 by Sharrow]

I really don’t get this...

People are looking at one sentence...

Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove . . . it has become part of our inherited knowledge.

And seem to be taking it out of context...

The point he is making is that most of the labour camps were built with poor quality materials and in a rush. Now that almost 70 years has past, there is not much left of these places.

All of the hard evidence for the murders (Gas canisters, documents etc...) have either rusted and decayed with time or been destroyed!!

How much evidence is there for any event in history over 70 years old?

He even explains this...

I don't think that the Holocaust is an exceptional case in that sense. We in the future – remembering the Holocaust – will operate in the same way that we remember most things from the past. We will know about it from literature and eyewitness testimony

How much solid proof do we have for the Battle of Hastings, Agincourt, or Waterloo??
How much evidence is there for the Spanish conquistador’s massacre of the native South American Indians?

Nearly all of our "proof" for these events is what is documented in books! There is not much physical evidence left from these events...

And obviously over time the holocaust will be the same. This does not mean that it did not happen... or that it was exaggerated.

The sad thing is that people do seem to want to jump all over this particular piece of History at the smallest of opportunities.

Not once does Robert Jan Van Pelt suggest that numbers have been exaggerated or that our historic knowledge of this period is wrong!

I just don’t get how this article can be misconstrued in such a way unless there is an agenda (be it conscious or subconscious) at work!

I would consider the films made during the holocaust...evidence that it did indeed take place. There are mountains of evidence on the links below.

Thank God for men like Steven Spielberg who has shown the world through his eyes, what evil man can perpetrate on man. He has archived an incredible collection of films. Obviously these are very difficult to watch, but preserved so that no generation now or ever, forget what horrors took place.

Warning: Graphic!

resources.ushmm.org...
resources.ushmm.org...
www.ushmm.org...

Guz

Originally posted by Sharrow

Originally posted by mmiichael
Reasonable people largely don't respond to this Jew hatred trying to mask itself as historical inquiry.

I don't see any Jew hatred here at all. A Jewish scholar said this in the Toronto Star's article. So please tell me, where is the Jew hatred here at all? I'm and also the others are just curious, how is this possible that even a scholar who is teaching the Holocaust, who is expert in the Holocaust is saying this that even THEY CAN'T PROVE the 99% of the Holocaust at all.

In fact I used to consult for Torstar, the company that owns the Toronto Star.
The Star is continually attacked legitimately for it's poor editorial quality. There is a site called "HonestReporting" that takes them to task regularly.

One line in one article among hundreds of millions of words a year the Star publishes, often from other sources, does not make it a solid fact. There are unreliable sources, there are bad academics, there are people who lie. It is not always apparent to a novice reporter on a quick phone call to some stranger.

Interestingly, only those looking for a reason to deny the Holocaust would even take note and bring a single line in some minor article to anyone's attention.

As anyone who has ever read books and articles by bonafide historians or talked to people who were in Eastern Europe during WWII knows - there is not even a shadow of doubt that there was a mass extermination program directed specifically at killing the Jewish population. Tens of millions of people witnessing or even participating in some way cannot be telling the same mistruth.

Though the Nazis towards the end tried to destroy as much paperwork and incrimination evidence in anticipation of war crimes charges, warehouses full of documentation in the form of orders, data on killings, reports survive. The 6 million Jews killed may be a low number going by the Nazi's own calculations. Many think it is.

There are people who try to pretend they're "just interested in history or getting facts straight" who question the Holocaust and the scale. They then feebly always add "well you know gypsies, gays, and others were killed too" as if this somehow diminishes the fact that half the Jewish civilian population was exterminated by a targeted genocidal program.

Few things in modern history are as well documented as the Holocaust. It happned in fornt of a whole population. As with the priest mentioned, one can go to anywhere in Eastern Europe and talk with people who watched Jews being shot and bodies burned in public effigies.

I have no tolerance for enforced ignorance and malicious Jew hatred that tries to act as if it's something else.


[edit on 6-1-2010 by mmiichael]

Questioning the accuracy of the Holocaust is NOT being Anti-semitic. It's a search for the Truth. Why are Jews afraid of the Truth? If the six million figure really was provable and well documented, then allowing the issue to be examined in some kind of court would shut the nazi sympathizers up once and for all but the Jews(or more accurately, the Zionists) don't want that because they know the six million number is highly inflated. The Nuremberg trials, never actually claimed the 6 million figure and it's now been acknowledged by allied witnesses, that a lot of the confessions made by nazis on trial, were coerced via torture. 70% of the judges, prosecutors, and staff at those trials were jewish and therefore those trials can hardly be considered unbiased.

The six million figure supposedly included 4 million from Auschwitz itself and a plague at the museum used to say that but at some point that plaque was changed to 1.5 million which is a reduction of 2.5 million. So if all other concentration camp figures are still the same, then the total has to be 3.5 million. Here are additional reasons why I have changed my mind about the validity of the six million figure.

A french historian(who's name I can't remember), who was imprisoned and tortured by the Nazis and therefore has no reason to lie for them, wrote a very detailed and documented look (over 1,000 pages) into the Holocaust and came to the conclusion that the total number of Jews killed in concentration camps was not more than 1.5 million and could in fact be as low as several hundred thousand.

The International Red Cross released a report in 1948 that said that the total number of deaths in Nazi concentration camps from ALL causes was just over 250,000 and that included not just Jews but everyone. The IRC was allowed access to all concentration camps during the war. There is NO mention in their report of gas chambers at all. Even Jewish holocaust organizations have admitted that no gas chambers existed in any concentration camp that was located inside Germany.

There is a Youtude video made by an Israeli student, who visited Auschwitz and started asking questions. After taking a very careful look around not just at the tourist parts of the camp, he came to the conclusion that the alleged gas chamber was built after the war by the Russians and that there is no evidence that anyone was killed in gas chambers. Zyklon B gas was used both before and during the war (not just by the Nazis) as a delousing agent.

Official Jewish publications, that track worldwide jewish populations by country, show at total jewish pop of just ove 15million in 1938 and approximately 15. 6 million in 1948. So where did the six million go? Prewar jewish populations in Europe was around 5.5 million(most of which was in eastern Europe). Germany is currently (after 60 years) paying compensation to 3.5 million 'holocaust survivors'. That suggests that the maximum number of holocaust victims is 2 million but that doesn't include all those 'survivors' who died after the war and are no longer receiving compensation.

And as for the argument that the actual number doesn't matter because even one death is too many, I would argue that for something this important (to both the Jews and the German People who are expected to carry this collective guilt forever) the actual number DOES matter. Why should the German people be vilified for millions of deaths that didn't occur? The real number, whatever it may turn out to be, is bad enough. It doesn't have to be exaggerated.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by Beancounter72]

reply to post by Muckster


Muckster, two things:
1. You hit the nail right on the head in understanding this article;
2. I don't roll on shomer shabbas :-)

either

1. Hitler was a good guy and was revolting against the international bankers
2. Hitler was a pawn of the international bankers, funded by them
3. Hitler was an anti-semite that killed Jews (but not international bankers).

#3 just doesn't make sense to me anymore after I did some research on the Holocaust. Keep an open mind and watch some holocaust denial videos here www.holocaustdenialvideos.com...

I think Hitler was most likely a 2, and not 1. Even though I doubt the Holocaust the way I doubt 9/11, the moon landing, the federal reserve's goodness, the Iraq war, and just about every other piece of history, I just can't quite seem to have any respect for Neo-Nazis, tell me if I offended any Neo-nazi in the room. As for the Jews or Christians who may get offended, I have only this to say: Christians, don't you realize that the Old Testament, which you don't believe in anymore, is the only reason that the U.S. is allied with Israel? As for the Jews who may get offended by this, all I have to say to you is that Hitler killed the wrong Jews, if he was truly anti-semitic he would have gone after the international bankers, not the poor jews in ghettos. The holocaust sent many Jews to Israel, which is now being used as a illuminati base, if anyone should be offended by the holocaust, it should be the Jews, just as Christians and Muslims should be offended by 9/11.

reply to post by mmiichael
Don't try to decredit something what is already there. It's not going to work at all. Why do you fear from this? Where is the hatred in this?

The Star is continually attacked legitimately for it's poor editorial quality.

What do you; mean poor editing? That they didn't censor that sentence what is giving the backbone of this thread? Editing means grammar and spelling mistakes and not content edition. It's calling as censor what about you're talking. Editing is something else and well... I can't see any editing problem in the Toronto Star.

In fact I used to consult for Torstar, the company that owns the Toronto Star.

Evidence?

Few things are as well documented as the Holocaust.

Then why a Holocaust scholar is saying this, that even they can't prove 99% of their own claiming?

I have zero tolerance for enforced ignorance and malicious Jew hatred that tries to act as if it's something else.

And I have zero tolerance for liars. I also have zero tolerance for those ones whose cannot take responsibility for anything. I have zero tolerance for those whose are believing they cannot be questioned for anything.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by Sharrow]

The body count of the Jewish Holocaust remains highly skeptical and debatable. However, you cannot deny the fact that the Jews were indeed mistreated, along with every other Catholics, gays, handicapped, Gypsies, etc.

Over 20,000,000,000 Russians were slaughtered, you don't see them asking for profits, do you?

[edit on 6-1-2010 by GorehoundLarry]

reply to post by mmiichael


if you think investigating a historical event is malicious jew hatred then I feel sorry for you.

reply to post by Sharrow


I have zero tolerence for the total BS on this thread...


Tell my nana it wasnt real!!


Thats the only bite you will get from me...

Swiftly clicks the ignore button

Originally posted by Beancounter72
Questioning the accuracy of the Holocaust is NOT being Anti-semitic. It's a search for the Truth. Why are Jews afraid of the Truth? If the six million figure really was provable and well documented, then allowing the issue to be examined in some kind of court would shut the nazi sympathizers up once and for all but the Jews(or more accurately, the Zionists) don't want that because they know the six million number is highly inflated.

No one should have to keep providing proof of something that has been known, demonstrated, documented, proven and reproven a thousand times. No one is on trial to reprove known facts. No one has to continually respond to every ignoramus just because they say "I don't believe you - show me>"

The Auschwitz numbers are always debated because it was a concentration camp primarily and not a dedicated death/execution camp. The majority of deaths were in civilian setting by shooting and mass graves, burning bodies.

Though Jew haters like to act as if they innocently want to verify history, they invariably jump on dubious published remarks that fit their agendas, and choose to mask their prejudices in making claims like they only oppose "Zionists" Their fixations make their real beliefs readily apparent.





[edit on 6-1-2010 by mmiichael]

Thought I'd add: A good amount of deaths of Jews in concentration camps were caused by disease, not executions. When you have large amounts of prisoners living in severe conditions, there are going to be negative results.