Labels and the BOX they put us in!

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by ziggystrange

 

Thanks ziggy for your break down. I assumed that is what he meant and I will still assume it, but thanks for your clarification.

I am still wondering why you are labeling me.

I have read through your threads again and I may have misinterpreted your intentions, I may have not.

I can see through the veil of the box you have just put me into again and will exit it.

For I am trying to learn but it seems some still do not want to teach.

What he did not realize was that only people with your ideology, or those that don't mention one that contradicts yours, are "really" welcome here, and all others will immediately be declared by you to be in a box or boxes. That's the problem with deceit, innocents, bystanders, and those that are misunderstood become ensnared in the tangled webs you weave.

No sir, I have not built the box, you have.

You are stating that I employ my web to ensnare, You miss my intentions sir, I aim to learn and to teach.

Sometimes when I do not understand I kind of ask. You know, I do not understand the Multiculturalism component, I am slow on the uptake. That is not understanding. Needed clarification.

I hate to assume because it leads to this.

[edit on 1/6/2010 by endisnighe]

Please excuse the off topic parts.

Believe it or not, I don't have ill will toward you.
We have just been fighting since we met, both you and I have attempted to cool it, but if you shoot I shoot back and vice versa.

You have me in a box also. You think I'm out to get right wing people just for fun. You may suspect I'm some provocateur, or paid poster maybe.

That's not true at all. I'm no angel, but I'm not here with an agenda. I want to learn just like you. Notice I did not try to make a mockery of your points.

I even tried to get people to really review it. That's what I want(ed) to do.
You had good points and good intentions. My convictions are just as strong as yours, and my intentions just as good. I have more right leaning people in my life than left. My daughter and her husband are big Ron Paul supporters.

We manage to put it where it belongs. We talk about it, but we accept each others difference in ideology.

You and are not separated by a million miles, what I personally wanted was a thorough in depth discussion of states right and the possible pros and cons of expanding then the way you would. I know it's not expanding them to you, that's how I think of it.

I think that's the real heart of the matter. States rights. Not racism, racism is always going to be there. Racism is not the dividing line, it's a symptom that is made more in your face by Obama being half black.

People that study racism, have learned that it's a lot like Violence, it's latent in everyone, even when we don't realize it. When we consider ourselves non violent or incapable of violence, we are shocked when we are violent.

A person that does not identify as a racist, can do racist things without thinking that they did anything racist, because they don't feel like racists.

There is such a thing as a race based reaction. That's why some Black undercover Cops get killed by their Brother officers black and white, and whatever. In NY a Black guy running with a gun out is first perceived by most witnesses as the perpetrator. It's a conditioned reaction. You may not see the Badge, and the Colored bandana hanging from his back pocket just from gun shock.

Hating Obama does not make anyone a racist, but there is a minority of people that are racists who use politics as an excuse to get their jollies.
Combine that with a powder keg atmosphere and you get people having hyper reactions to things that are racist, and reactions to things that appear racist.

You also get the possibility that a few bad apples can incite a normal angry protest into a riot. Some nut-job could actually do the unspeakable, and that would be a mistake we will not get over for a long time.

If something were to happen to Obama, man, there would be no way to stop a national tragedy in the aftermath. Black people would go insane like never before, and the left would act violently.

You may not want it, or think it can happen, but it can.

We need to make the peace brother, all of us.

The extremists on any side are no good. Change has to come through elections and the Constitution. There are disagreements, but they can be ironed out.

The alternative is Civil War.

We don't need it, if we need a real war, left and right will always become just Americans when we go to war. Even bad wars, like now.

We don't want this. We can work it out.

I have to get some sleep. Take care and be well so we can butt heads tomorrow.

Peace

Ziggy

reply to post by endisnighe


I do not really think one has to want to be outside the box but rather has to realize the number of boxes to choose from is infinite.

We need these kind of stipulations to create an identity.

Is it possible to reside in multible boxes at the same time? The one "they" put you in and the one you choose to work from.

Peace

i haven't even read anything on this post, just the title and a few subliminal captures with my eyes gettting to this page...

this is by far the biggest issue facing our world today.....
we cannot communicate to one another, because of the very tool that we use to communicate.................

this idea of labelling with the aid of television, has completely demoralised and sucked all substance out of almost any part of our existence,,,,,

as bowie said,, 'but the film is a sadning bore, cause she's lived it 10 times before'.............

While I understand the intent of promoting an end to labels and boxes, I believe what we really need to do is end "drive-by labeling". By that I mean, labeling someone for the purpose of insulting or scaring the individual as to how and where their opinions reside.

While I try to reserve my opinion of individual people until I can interact with them directly and intimately, this doesn't (and I believe...can't work) with individuals you have to gauge from a far. Newscasters, the famous, and even many on ATS. You never really "know" who and what they are...but you do have to place them in a "group" in order to change your mindset for each time you encounter them. Tiger Woods is a good, recent example. A black, male, professional golfer who has some questionable relationship and/or sexual issues. I understand that everyone will have different labels for different people...like...many will make an inference about me as to why I add "black" or why I care about his recent problems. We need that type of label when someone says "Tiger Woods" to prepare to accept new data and process it correctly. That data will either support, change, or add to the label. However...in the end...we (you and I) will never truly know who Tiger Woods is.

So...in closing...I suggest supporting (or at least understanding) our needs for labels...but attempt to refrain from using them for insulting and power purposes, and instead, use them for personal classification.

PS: And for the record...I add the label "black" there because his success is even greater due to his race, and all the problems and prejudice that he may have had to overcome to reach his level of success.

What about the "bro" or the "braw" or being an "OG"... my brothers from down the block call me OG Triple OG all the time, lol whatever that means . . .

A little off topic but I have an 'app' for my Ipod Touch called "Political GPS" and it asks you at the beginning of it 30 questions to let you know what sphere or 'label' you would be because of the way you answer the questions.Tye questions range but ask about what type of government you would want in place in a hypthetical situation. The end result is that you are labeled only one of only 4 spheres
Liberal,Conservative,Totalitarian and Anarchist. I answered the questions that I thought would create a more " truly free" country. In essence, I answered it the way that I thought our forefathers would have answered it. I was placed far into the Anarchy catagory........basically the app referred to me as an anarchist because I answered the questions patriotically. I noticed there was not a sphere for patriots on that program. hmmmmm.

It is a means of undermining a persons credibility by destroying their reputation with negative labels, I don't think I have put any labels on any posters,

It is all part of the control drama.

It is about power and control, and getting the other person to back off their position,

We all have something to contribute, if someone is ignoring anothers post, I think they lose valuable lessons, fear must be involved, none of us want to admit we may be wrong about an issue,
video.google.com...#

He uses the word energy, I use the word, empowerment, but a negative form of empowerment,

But with out these control dramas we wouldn't have forums like these, people like the drama, a peaceful conversation or reading one is not as thrilling as watching the control drama being played out on the forum,

I was shocked to learn this on another forum, when I tried to have a normal conversation, people said that was boring,

Anyway, take any topic, even the most neutral or mundane, people attack.


Edited to say I feel very drained after reading the forum sometimes, many times I want to make a point but I just walk away, because I KNOW, it wont get me anywhere but more frustrated,

meet me half way.



[edit on 093131p://bWednesday2010 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by WeAreAWAKE
While I understand the intent of promoting an end to labels and boxes, I believe what we really need to do is end "drive-by labeling". By that I mean, labeling someone for the purpose of insulting or scaring the individual as to how and where their opinions reside.

this is some quality stuff right here man........

I CONCURR!!!!!

[edit on 6-1-2010 by tripulation666]

reply to post by ziggystrange


Ziggy may I suggest you study up on the term racist?

Hitler was a racist....he had overt and covert feelings that his race was superior to all others. Thus, a racist.

edit: KKK (most members) are racist if they believe that the 'white' race is superior to the 'black' race.

The jack-hole down the block that has racial prejudices.......just an ignorant fool, maybe a bigot...but no racist I bet.

To be a racist, one must have the belief that their race makes them superior to another race in ability, intelligence, etc.

Other than that...good post

[edit on 6-1-2010 by ownbestenemy]

screw you, corprate america!

Originally posted by Phenomium
A little off topic but I have an 'app' for my Ipod Touch called "Political GPS" and it asks you at the beginning of it 30 questions to let you know what sphere or 'label' you would be because of the way you answer the questions.Tye questions range but ask about what type of government you would want in place in a hypthetical situation. The end result is that you are labeled only one of only 4 spheres
Liberal,Conservative,Totalitarian and Anarchist. I answered the questions that I thought would create a more " truly free" country. In essence, I answered it the way that I thought our forefathers would have answered it. I was placed far into the Anarchy catagory........basically the app referred to me as an anarchist because I answered the questions patriotically. I noticed there was not a sphere for patriots on that program. hmmmmm.

That's due to computers being free of human faculties, thus you are graded by a decision tree.

It's no surprise. The program does not use rationalization or use complex reasoning, it just scores the answers according to the criteria the programmer used.

A Patriot and a Terrorist will always score equally until you bias the program by including the variable, that would disambiguate the answer.

In simple basic

If the programmer's code added this, "assume these actions are justified or not by the following selection"

input(y) "please enter side of fight descriptor"

if y = "American" or "Ally" then

x = Patriot

Else

x= Terrorist

end if

Print "you are a" x (results in)

You are a Patriot

It's just a set of instructions. It's a "y" variable driven decision in this case.

Ziggy

Originally posted by ownbestenemy
reply to post by ziggystrange

 

Ziggy may I suggest you study up on the term racist?

Hitler was a racist....he had overt and covert feelings that his race was superior to all others. Thus, a racist.

edit: KKK (most members) are racist if they believe that the 'white' race is superior to the 'black' race.

The jack-hole down the block that has racial prejudices.......just an ignorant fool, maybe a bigot...but no racist I bet.

To be a racist, one must have the belief that their race makes them superior to another race in ability, intelligence, etc.

Other than that...good post

[edit on 6-1-2010 by ownbestenemy]

Thanks Ownbestenemy,

You are correct, I already knew that, and I will be careful to make the distinction going forward.

Bigotry and Racism are not the same.

The majority of the people that are prejudiced in the US, are probably bigots.

I would say.

"Archie Bunker was a lovable Bigot. If he had been a racist, he would not have been "lovable". Bigotry is based on ignorance, Racism is based on fear, maybe hate, and or other factors"

Sometimes labels help in disambiguation.

All that considered any type of prejudice limits, and damages us.

Best,

Ziggy

reply to post by operation mindcrime


Thanks for your reply and whatever box you choose to be in, look outside it once and awhile.

Peace back at ya.

reply to post by tripulation666

this idea of labelling with the aid of television, has completely demoralised and sucked all substance out of almost any part of our existence,,,,,

Absolutely. Think outside that existence and see the MSM is just another labeling device. Peace.

reply to post by WeAreAWAKE

So...in closing...I suggest supporting (or at least understanding) our needs for labels...but attempt to refrain from using them for insulting and power purposes, and instead, use them for personal classification.

Agreed.

reply to post by Spock Shock


Sometimes we do not even know what the label means. Trips OG.

reply to post by Phenomium


Those damn Anarchist Forefathers, I believe they would have another label today if they were here-Homegrown Terrorist

reply to post by Stormdancer777

But with out these control dramas we wouldn't have forums like these, people like the drama, a peaceful conversation or reading one is not as thrilling as watching the control drama being played out on the forum,

I have been accused of both going to far and being boring when I try to hash out things intellectually. I believe this thread is my penance for my out of control ways on other threads. One member even said he wanted the shoot from the hip back in one.

Edited to say I feel very drained after reading the forum sometimes, many times I want to make a point but I just walk away, because I KNOW, it wont get me anywhere but more frustrated, meet me half way.

Yes, the angst and vitriol can be shocking to the system. That is why I pledged to stop my labeling of fellow members. I am going to try my damnedest to not fall back to old patterns.

God bless and Peace.

Thanks tripulation, obe, and ziggy for keeping the thread conversation going.

Labels and boxes-boxes and labels.

Things that keep us divided and arguing must be removed if we are to advance as a civilization.

Thanks again everyone for the conversation.

God bless and Peace.

Originally posted by endisnighe
Thanks tripulation, obe, and ziggy for keeping the thread conversation going.

Labels and boxes-boxes and labels.

Things that keep us divided and arguing must be removed if we are to advance as a civilization.

Thanks again everyone for the conversation.

God bless and Peace.

Endisnighe,

Not fighting feels good, and is more productive.

Best,
Ziggy

reply to post by ziggystrange


Yes, I got out of hand lately.

Many people that I respected their opinion, quit responding so I have to take a step back and realize the angst is just another diversion.

Thanks.

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by ziggystrange

 

Yes, I got out of hand lately.

Many people that I respected their opinion, quit responding so I have to take a step back and realize the angst is just another diversion.

Thanks.

Ditto.

My you are POTUS - Take the Bully Pulpit and Show us the way, has 0 posts.

Nobody wants the job

If nobody answers, I may make a Presidential appeal for National Unity before it gets hosed.

Ok back on topic, sorry OP.

Ziggy

Perhaps there is more the boxes and labels then people think..

Government uses it to corral groups of people into one word...

More commonly, bocxes, and labels are used by people to reference something uncomfortabele.

In the 60's I'm sure many Dad's had many an argument with their daughters over her "hippie" boyfriend, and how he was not going to go anywhere..

Where as most people were proud to be hippies, the older generation referred to them as such in fear.

We use boxes and labels to give name to our fears. Of late i have seen alot of added words in-front of alot of common-buzzword labels.. "damn terrorists" "damn

reply to post by endisnighe

I vow right now to quit using labels.

You don't really have a choice in the matter, unfortunately. Stereotypes are an unconscious cognitive function that sorts and categorizes large groups of variance by perceived threads of commonality, specifically when applied to people in anticipation of social interaction. It was incredibly useful to our hunter-gatherer tribal ancestors when assessing risk/opportunity levels posed by other tribes of humans in the wilderness - and is still more or less a useful attribute. However, this process doesn't draw moral boundaries... it just is, and environment/culture can have a profound effect on the associations made by this process, which shapes your perception and inferences. Labels are mental shortcut for identifying and associating collections of commonly shared traits indicative to a stereotype - which is itself a correlated to groups of shared cultural/physiological/behavioral/etc traits. It help serves as a back-bone for In-Group/Out-Group identification and assessment. Generally, positive assessments are made based on higher proportions of similarities, while negative assessments are made based on the higher proportion of differences. This had a survival benefit, as higher degrees of shared similarities tend to correlate with a greater degree of shared genetics (family group/clan) However, the greater the degree of differences there were, the more likely they are to be of non-relation and a potential competition for resources.

That's why you tend to feel safer and more comfortable with family, friends, and those whom you share common interests with, while conversely you tend to feel more uneasy and threatened when surrounded by those who don't share your interests, views, and culture.

And as I said, it's an unconscious process that's only really been recognized in the last half-century or so. It's rather telling that, when you consider the languages we've created - there really aren't any basic verbal constructs that can describe groups in a manner which accurately convey their constituent individual components. The best we come up with are rough analogies such as likening interaction with them to "Herding Cats" or "Cowboy Cultures". Even there, however, you'd just be associating groups of individuals with a stereotype (Cats, Cowboys) based on the stressed similarity towards individuality.

You can't help that you engage in stereotyping, but you can be aware of it's effect and work to mitigate the bias it introduces - as well as weed out faulty/offensive/dehumanizing associations. Note also, that this isn't to suggest that racism is ingrained or genetically determined. Racism is merely a particular expression of stereotyping wherein ethnic associations are the predominant divisional markers between in-group/out-group distinction. It can also manifest along political ideologies, religious affiliations, philosophical worldviews, etc. Even trivialities as inane as what music genres you like or what video game consoles/computer hardware you prefer.

That we group people by shared similarities (even if those traits are projected falsehoods) and infer social interaction from them is what is inherent to human nature. The defining of those groups and the inferences made according to them are determined socially and individually.

[edit on 6-1-2010 by Lasheic]

Originally posted by Lasheic
reply to post by endisnighe

 

I vow right now to quit using labels.

You don't really have a choice in the matter, SNIP

Good post!

I use both PC and MAC. Started using MAC 5 yrs ago after being a PC guy for over 20 yrs. Also Linux/Unix since the eighties.

Often I would feel weird. My own bias made makes feel uncomfortable.

When I think of a MAC user I envision someone completely different than what my mind's eye sees as a PC user. I even feel a bit out of place in an Apple store.

Linux users also bring to mind a Hacker, when the Mac ad guy did the Die Hard movie, I could not identify with him as a hacker. I saw the movie after the ads.

Thanks

Ziggy