Hypothetically Speaking, You Want a Revolution?, State Your Case.

reply to post by ziggystrange


No where in the Constitution does it say that the white man is the only creature to benefit from such provisions. And I'm happy to say that most of the country would have none of it.

If it did turn out that way after I helped fight to achieve our goal, then my fight would continue. I'm not going anywhere. No ONE not even god himself will move me from my home and everything I fought for.

[edit on 21-1-2010 by projectvxn]

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by ziggystrange

 

No where in the Constitution does it say that the white man is the only creature to benefit from such provisions. And I'm happy to say that most of the country would have none of it.

If it did turn out that way after I helped fight to achieve our goal, then my fight would continue. I'm not going anywhere. No ONE not even god himself will move me from my home and everything I fought for.

[edit on 21-1-2010 by projectvxn]

Thanks projectvxn,

I believe the same as you. This is only one of the things that worries me. That some people will take the opportunity to create that sort of environment.

I'm sure if you asked some of the so called Constitutionalists they would, hem, and haw about the issue of who lives where, and according to what. If I were you, I'd ask before throwing in.

Thank you for the frank answer.

Ziggy Strange


[edit on 21-1-2010 by ziggystrange]

reply to post by ziggystrange

If possible, I'd love to explore a reasonable set of principles and some specifics with you about going forward constructively.

You seem reasonable, let's see what we can come up with, I'm not inviting you to a tit for tat, I really want to discuss your ideas, and see how they fit with mine. Maybe we can ask Ownbestenemy to chime in.

Hey Ziggy, just noticed this post, otherwise I would have replied sooner!

One of the most important things that I believe needs to be done is a deconstruction of the Wall Street/City of London multi-national cartel, much like the 1911 break up of Standard Oil but much more extensive and radical. This must be followed by a cap on the size of a company. Smaller companies means more companies which would mean more jobs. It would also prevent a company from reaching to level of revenue where they could pump it into the pockets of politicians in D.C., and with the gigantic cuts on executive bonuses (which is currently 1% of our GDP) wealth will become more easily distributed. The smaller company also presents the more likely possibility of the worker cooperative system taking root, which is the 'true form of socialism': every business is democratically run by the workers, who, instead of being hourly employees, are actually made part owners of the businesses. In work places where this has been implemented, it has been shown that while the executives make considerably less money in the hierarchical system, the "average employees" make far more money than they normally would. Smaller companies with a smaller revenue would have a harder time outsourcing jobs, which would protect both the American worker and the Third Worlders who fall victim to Free Trade Zones and sweat shops. There must also be extensive bans on any corporate influence on Washington and a dismantling of the corporate lobbyist system.

The Federal Reserve must be reformed and taken over from the control of private banks, and actually incorporated into the Federal government. The U.S. government should be the ones printing the U.S. money. It must operate at a high level of transparency with civilian-run NGOs acting as a watchdogs on the whole operation.

At risk of sounding like a hippie idealist, all foreign occupations must end with a recalling of the troops back to America. In 2004 there were some 700+ plus US military bases across the world. These must be closed with the return of the troops, as well as the beginning of dissolving the military-industrial-complex by revoking of military contracts to the arms industry and begin a massive investigation and prosecution of these companies for any misdeeds during the War on Terror. The FBI, the CIA, the NSA, DIA, DHS, etc, must be shattered and reformed into a smaller, domestic-based organization that would have liaisons with international organizations as opposed to stationing agents around the world. This organization would have nowhere the same amount of power these previous organizations would have.

The War on Drugs must also come to an end. By the prohibition in America we would significantly weaken the violent drug cartels in Mexico and South America. Legal drug manufacturing in America would, as strange as it sounds, provide more jobs, and the taxation on drugs would be a serious boost.

The next idea will be unpopular with many people: higher taxes on the rich and wealthy. It only makes sense that if you make more or have more, you should give more. From ending the War on Terror and War on Drugs, the taxation of drugs, the taxation of the rich and the more even distribution of wealth due to smaller company size, the government can begin focusing on important issues, such as the right to healthcare.

How do we get to this stage? It wouldn't be easy, and may very well be impossible. It would require a forceful populace that wouldn't be scared to let the government know what they want, a populace that stands together for their fellow human.

You know, I also wouldn't mind stronger international laws and courts that countries have to abide by, and even perhaps... a global currency!

reply to post by Someone336


Hi Someone,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

This thread kind of petered out.

I have one that really tanked but I consider very telling.

You are POTUS - Take the Bully Pulpit and show us the way. 2 replies.

Nobody really wants the job.

I can only try.

Cheers

Ziggy

reply to post by ziggystrange

This thread kind of petered out.

Well, let's see if we can breathe some life back into it.

The tool that keeps our current system afloat is not the fabled "American Dream", the promise of wealth and prosperity through one's own work. This is an image fed to the masses, an advertisement for the Great Brand of Capitalism.

I've studied the theories of the Situationists and their 90s descendants, the adbusters and culture jammers and I agree with them: the only real way to reach the proper 'revolutionary stage' is through subversion of their weapon and the use of advertising against them. What I'm advocating is basically an extensive propaganda campaign where artists, journalists, film makers, community organizers, musicians, grass roots organizations, etc, work in comity as Counter Cultural Ad-Men, free from government control or funding and corporate co-opting. Just think of the possibilities of billboards alone: as you drive to the mall to buy clothes, you are confronted with the images of sweat shops. You're about the pull through the drive through at McDonalds and you're smacked in the face with the pictures of the slaughterhouses, or perhaps health studies on the effects of fast food. The pristine, wealthy suburbs dotted with pictures of inner-city squalor, statistics of uninsured Americans near hospitals and insurance companies, images of what our tax dollars do in the Middle East screaming at us as we drive down the highways. It's not a pretty idea, but it's one that I think will jog people into reconsidering the system they have so dearly clung too, simply because of the constant brand bombardment. Did you encounter people, directly after the release of Avatar, who espoused environmental views whereas they hadn't prior seeing the film? I did.

This 'ad-campaign' could get us to the proper stage for the needed changes to be made. We already have thousands upon thousands in America and worldwide interested and willing to participate in pro-freedom, anti-corporate, anti-overwhelming government movements, and just because 9/11 it was gaining serious traction, even publicity with events like the Battle of Seattle.

Marches, strikes, non-stop lobbying by civilians on the government, Direct Action and non-violent acts of civil disobedience would then need to follow. And perhaps, just perhaps, we could start to see the world turn to a brighter place.

What about you, Ziggy? What are your views and what do you see that needs to be done to get to that stage? Let's see what kind of common ground we can reach.

I think the Beatles said it quite well:

You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right

You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can
But when you want money
for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right
Ah

ah, ah, ah, ah, ah...

You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You better free you mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right
all right, all right, all right
all right, all right, all right

reply to post by Someone336


Fair enough. You are the only person to ask what my views are here.

My revolution is of the mind.

I feel that the USA has never properly upheld the Constitution.

I have read everything that came before it, how it was created, and the ramp up to ratification. As well as what has come after.

I feel the Founding Fathers had it right, but were not able to see it though.

I believe in as small as possible GOV, but I also have a background in Socioeconomic engineering. What is small to me is huge to others.

My focus is on averting disaster, and reconstruction of America.

Where I feel the issues get twisted is Fed vs State.

I feel the new Patriots don't fully understand that the Constitution was not intended to be an anchor, more of a foundational baseline with which to govern ourselves.

I'll come back and add some quotes from the FFs on this.

Most important right now.

Avert economic disaster.

End the wars judiciously.

Return the vote to the people (Power owns it now)

Term limits, but not short. Economic development takes time.

Tax reform

Citizens should not pay any tax that Corporations, and other businesses can.

Taxes should be levied according to how much you earn, and how you come to earn it. By this I mean, businesses that actually make something should pay less than businesses that earn from flow of assets.

Banks should be tightly regulated.

Foreign interests have no business in our elective process.

Health care costs have to be reigned in or else, nothing else will matter.

It's a radical approach that tries to keep things real.

I have seen proposed actions that would, without a doubt cause a global disaster.

It's easy to say "there is nothing in the Constitution about X" but there is.

The Constitution covers "anything" but you have to understand what "Living Document" means, which most completely ignore.

The SCOTUS - is perverted, not by nature but by collusion, Presidents conspired to load the deck, and roll back rulings their agenda did not like.

The perennial defense that it's a 1st amendment issue is just an excuse.
The real issue is the march to strip your rights to self determination from you.

The offer is presented as Liberty. Freedom to customize your State/City/Block according to some criterion derived from a majority. I'm all for deciding things, one person one vote. As long as it's not a guise to segregate by ideology/race/national origin.

Because the Constitution was engineered to guide us in future times, and through any foreseen, and unforeseen circumstances, it's easy to vilify anything done after ratification.

Scholars have to determine, and agree on what exactly triggers an amendment. It's also extremely important to have a mechanism that tracks how a decision affects the whole.

I get it when people say this decision was xyz but what they don't understand is the Constitution was never intended to shackle it's keepers.

Any abrogation is not allowed, even if that abrogation is an attempt to remedy another. This is not a wish, it's spelled out by intent in the Constitution. It's also discussed and understood by the Founding Fathers.

It's not a Cherry tree. You can't pick the fruits you like, you have to take the whole thing into consideration when you act.

We just went from a black market in representatives, to over the counter representative market. We also now say that foreign interests are ok in the elective process. This is not what the FFs intended. Their entire issue was with foreign powers deciding what Americans do, or how they are governed.

Corruption is rampant because we allow our representatives to lie in getting elected. I think this should be subject to slander, an libel laws, possibly a higher crime if it involves our governance.

States rights? Sorry not splitting the Union into 50 feudal States. Such a thing would nullify the US as a Republic, and we would go to war against each other.

The FFs specifically created a centralized Gov for a reason. Individual States are just that, individual. The Union is essential, GW felt it was, as did most of them. What they did not want was Presidents like GWB.

Is the new admin perfect, not by a long shot, but it's a big improvement. Why? there is a centrist who cares, not a well..I'd rather not say.

I believe that everyone that can, should be involved in petitioning through all legal means. The people have the power to make change happen but to do that they have to deal with facts, not talking points from any party.

I was part of the 60s movement, you could say I was a Hippie, but I did not believe in a total change in culture. I believed we were being abused, and I did something about it.

We did not have the Internet, so we talked, we organized, we protested, and voted. We also did not wait for Nixon to respond. We fed each other, wore cheap or self made clothes, and used everything we could that was discarded by others. Drug abuse hurt the cause, people were naive about the consequences.

We need common sense reform of everything, based on the greater good of the Nation, not any group. We are all American something some deny to this day. Greater good of the Nation = Greater good of the people, the collective.

Some socialism is called for, it's been here all along. But the extreme ideologues sieze on the word, and fan the flames of the populace. This is not good. The people are easy to sway long enough to get power, to use agaist them.

I started a thread called "When in US History is your ideal time? And Why?

So far people are posting but either not reading the OP, or skirting the issue for the most part.

I don't believe there has really been an ideal time in the history of the US. But you would think there was an utopia here somewhere in the past if you listen to the rhetoric. I know I will be excoriated for saying this, but I believe the main problem is xenophobia.

We mistrust and fear those who are different. The racial make up of the US is changing. I embrace this, it's nature taking it's proper course. Science shows us there are benefits in diversity of genetic pools. We will eventually be a world of mixed races. It's an expansion, and a contraction. Races evolved and spread out, it's inevitable to maintain the blood lines as they were, during some subjectively chosen epoch without genocide, and doing this is only delaying the inevitable.

We need education to survive, we need to make goods, and sell them. Not just to ourselves but to the rest of the world. The culture of greed, and the global lack of cohesion made us dependent on too much from the exterior. We are moving toward a global balance, or destruction. It's up to us to grow up and put away childish things.

I don't believe in a one world government, but the world has to get on the same page, or we all get hosed. Trade has to be reformed, outsourcing curtailed.

I'll tell you, in a business, you have to deal with similar challenges. If you manage to keep you head, and make sound decisions, you succeed, if you don't you fail.

We have many extreme ideologies that can't work. Others that would destroy us.

I'm a Sailor. One thing I know for sure, no matter what, you don't scuttle the boat to fix a leak, or break off the mast if you want to catch less wind. You plug the leak, trim the sails, put out a sea anchor, and above all, don't flood the engine. In a storm "reason" is your friend.

I think we can meet each other and agree to meet everyone's needs without killing each other, or splitting into 50 factions, that each have 50 segments.

We need to unite as one people and demand remedy of all injustices, and crimes against the people, but we need a strong central government to finish the course. So it's not easy, or simple but somehow we have to do it.

That's all my brain can muster going live, when I have a bunch of other things on my mind.

Ziggy Strange

[edit on 29-1-2010 by ziggystrange]