Would you do the same as Luis?

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Matrix777

 

The rules are there for a reason, namely to stop a flood of people moving around the globe which would upset the balances in whatever countries they decided to pitch up in. There are only finite resources (jobs/healthcare/education) available in most (if not all) countries, so having an unending tide coming from another country is not sustainable.

We have the same issue here in the UK (and a Government that has admitted trying to socially engineer the UK into a multi-cultural sinkhole) and it hasn't worked. Now we have cultures unwilling to intigrate and some elements of their society actively trying to change our own.

Our Government faces increasing costs for education, healthcare, transport etc due to a rising population fuelled mostly by immigration, yet these immigrant do not put into the economy what they take out of it, meaning less for all. even when illegals are discovered and "arrested", the stupid rules mean they cannot be deported without the correct paperwork, so they burn their passports and, hey presto, they get to stay here indefinately.

We are not "anti-immigrant" in the UK, but it has to be at a sustainable level to allow the country to adjust and cope, not the way it has been done and allow in millions inside of ten years, most who don't speak english or give a crap about this country at all.

Good response. What if the trillions that were spent by governments worldwide on military expenditure were instead allocated towards feeding the starving and suffering throughout third world countries? With that kind of money, I would think that no-one would have to suffer without food again, yes?

Heck, even just half of what our governments spend on defense could feed the entire planet. Couldn't it?





[edit on 3-1-2010 by Matrix777]

Originally posted by Matrix777
Thanks for all of your responses.


For those in the sort out your own problems camp, can I ask why you feel you should be the only one entitled to a prosperous existence?

Because living in America isn't the only way to have a prosperous existence. Do you let people steal things from you, so that they can become as prosperous as you? I can go to my neighbour's house and take from him because he has a nicer truck? Why would I obtain food when I can just take it from him?
From what I understand, it wasn't too long ago that the west were hard workers. For some reason, that has changed. Illegal immigration is like people jumping onto a sinking lifeboat.

reply to post by Matrix777


The UK gives £5.5 Billion a year in international aid, which is set to increase even more in 2010. We have been giving billions for years already.

At what point though will the developing world actually "develop"? Looking at the way they run their countries and societies, I'd guess the answer is never.

I don't fall for the guilt trips anymore about how it's all the evil white mans fault. Most African countries have had 50 years of independance and still have dictators, genocide, starvation and poor services.

It's all tribal and as soon as one guy loses an "election", he calls fraud and uses his hired goons to overthrow the one that did "win".

Cue endless cycle of civil war, corruption and death, which somehow is the fault of us in the west, so we must pay Billions in aid, so we can watch even more people die as that money is spent on drugs, guns and bribes instead.

There comes a point when you just dont give a toss anymore.

[edit on 3/1/10 by stumason]

reply to post by Matrix777


The way I see it is this:

Our country is prosperous because our forefathers had the gumption to work for it, make it better, invent stuff and better everyone's lives. The "developing world", despite having had the same opportunity to develop as we did, failed miserably due to corruption, weak laws and they're own inadequacy.

Some never even made it past the stone age, despite having been around for as long. What the hell is that about?

That's our fault, is it? Maybe they should work to better their own country, rather than coming to ours and dragging it down.

Mexico, for example, used to be a rich and powerful country. Civil wars, corruption and lack of investment for the future (like our forefathers had done) ruined the country so now it is a pale shadow of it's former self.

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Matrix777

 

The UK gives £5.5 Billion a year in international aid, which is set to increase even more in 2010. We have been giving billions for years already.

At what point though will the developing world actually "develop"? Looking at the way they run their countries and societies, I'd guess the answer is never.

I don't fall for the guilt trips anymore about how it's all the evil white mans fault. Most African countries have had 50 years of independance and still have dictators, genocide, starvation and poor services.

It's all tribal and as soon as one guy loses an "election", he calls fraud and uses his hired goons to overthrow the one that did "win".

Cue endless cycle of civil war, corruption and death, which somehow is the fault of us in the west, so we must pay Billions in aid, so we can watch even more people die as that money is spent on drugs, guns and bribes instead.

There comes a point when you just dont give a toss anymore.

[edit on 3/1/10 by stumason]

You are correct that the majority of the monetary aid just ends up in the wrong hands. Perhaps education is the answer?

reply to post by Matrix777


Sure I would. This is a very simple question. All you have to do is look at the many illegal immigrants working in the States. The risk of prison or deportation for the well being of my family is well worth it.

reply to post by Matrix777


Stop aid altogether. That way, those tinpots and dodgy Governments would be forced to face the people who they have not provided proper governance to for decades and they might actually do something. Giving them endless billions has solved nothing.

As the old saying goes, "give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime". At the moment, all we're doing is providing multi-biilion dollar fish.

Luis can either become a revolutionary and overthrow the powers that subject him or he can flee his country and build a better life. I don't blame luis at all. If I was sympathetic to luis' cause I would put an assult rifle in luis hands.

Give a man a fish and he will ask for another one. Give a man an assult rifle and teach him how to use it and he will kill his own fish.


[edit on 3-1-2010 by In nothing we trust]

My wife is an illegal alien from Mexico, life is extremely difficult for us because she can not work or drive, we can not claim her on our taxes, and now that we are low income we can not get the public assistance that we need because they don't count her.
I have tried going through the proper channels to get her documented but it costs thousands of dollars to do so, also I hear that she would have to go back to Mexico as punishment for ten years, which means I wouldn't live with my kids again until they are going through puberty.
I have heard people call her a criminal. I don't consider her a criminal, I see her knitting and taking care of the kids and tending to the garden, not looting stores and mugging people.
Also, people have some misconceptions of illegal immigrants, they think they cheat on their taxes and get public aid. Well, they do pay taxes if they work and also pay into social security but will never see that money. You can't get public aid either if you don't have a social.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the U.S. should just open the borders, especially in this economy, but we definitely need an immigration reform and an ammnesty for people who have lived here for a long time (that speak English and abide by local laws), for juveniles and for refugees.
There are many people who live here that speak fluent English and abide by local laws but are undocumented, and you may have a hard time distinguishing them from any other American. I don't really think these people should be deported.
BTW my ancestors were among the first people in this country, and I don't think they got permission from any indians to come here.

reply to post by The_Seeker


So just how many illegals should America take in? An unlimited amount? How about 200 million in one year? We have countries, borders and laws. If we do not keep those institutions we will be run over by a starving mass of humanity. There aren't jobs, housing, education or medical care for that many people.
What are you personally willing to do without to accomodate all these immigrants?
I'd love to invite everyone to come join the fun here in the US, or for that matter invite my whole city to my house for a party BUT there just ain;t enough room.
Go bash Switzerland for their immigration laws, bet neither of us could legally emigrate there.

I would like to add also that each immigration case is unique, depending on current laws, fees, and situation. Comparing your friend or relative or ancestor who immigrated legally to someone like "Luis" is like comparing apples to oranges.
(And no, we sure can't take 'em all in, but have a heart people)
And I would also like to get y'all thinking, if we have illegal immigrants contributing billions in to social security which they will never see, why do we not have enough funds in there?

The choice of survival and family. Louis chose to pursue a mate, dance the ritual dance, and then both of them chose to have a child in those moments of love and hope. The idea that both Louis and his mate had a child IN A THIRD WORLD COUNTRY when both of them knew that they couldn't EVER properly care for their child in Mexico is absurd and self-centered on many levels. The REALITIES of living in poverty, the crime, and fear of surviving are crushing and in this environment Louis chose to risk a NEW life (their child). There is no nobility in his crossing the border illegally to care for his family. No grand gesture for his willingness to stand in front of Hum Despot to work. Heck, Louis and his new family could be any one of the numerous families (man, wife, old grandparents and children) I see EVERY DAY pushing shopping carts through the local neighborhoods collecting cans and sellable refuse. Does he deserve accolades for making the decision to breed in the first place without the ability to care for his progeny? Brotherly respect because he risked so much to come here to support his child and wife. Compassion for him struggling and sacrificing here as he sends most of his untaxable cash to the family he and his partner chose to create far away? Not in my eyes. I would not have had the child in the first place. It is a decision and a choice.

Just because the intentions are good doesnt mean its okay. As another poster said 'rules are there for a reason'.
Would Luis' wife & children truly be content with rarely seeing him, and with the possibility that he could be arrested at any time?

If there was absolutely no other option then I could understand it, but only as a short term solution.
You have to consider that people coming to countries such as america & the UK illegally have an effect on the economy. So when they start taking the jobs, it means someone who lives in the country legally is missing out, thus raising unemployment levels. Illegal immigrants probably dont have a huge effect on this, but its still an issue because there's plenty of citizens of america and the UK who cant afford anywhere to live, let alone any food. Roughly 800,000 in the UK if I remember correctly.

Plus, if you get these people coming over to the UK then they get to use the NHS. Its nice knowing that not only are you contributing a sizeable amount of tax towards keeping illegal immigrants in tip-top condition, but you get to experience ridiculously long waiting lists for hospital appointments because of it.
Not saying that if these people became ill then we should just let them suffer, but the human rights campaigners would go wild if they didnt so its a no-win situation really.

well as far as I'm concerned if you haven't left the country in your life you have no opinion worth listening to on this(or any important)topic.

all you have EVER heard has been the home country viewpoint.you are what we(me and the other travelers)call groundlings.you are born live and die withing 50 or so miles of the same spot.Not even intelligent enough a rat to explore the limits of your cage.If this is true of you skip on not interested in your "thoughts"

nobody had a choice who what or where they were born.
getting mad at people for trying to better their life is worse than pointless.You are being selfish and counterproductive.
for EVERY leech on society we get ten or more hard working honest people that contribute to the economy.(just guessing at numbers but i"ll bet the ratio is about right)

It's getting mad at fish for peeing in the pond.

to all these people who think luis should stay and fight to make home better.
1.he is he's sending money home to help his family and their local economy
2.where is your fight to make our home better?are you doing the same thing at home?how many protests you been to?or is your mindless justification of your selfishness sufficient help?

I'm an american nomad currently working in mexico(technically illegally)for nearly two years.the local law enforcement and government know and don't care as i contribute to the community by being here and spending money.

don't make me smack down anymore retarded arguments cuz i will!
now play nice while i clean up...

p.s. I just found out last night they debate here,don't make me get all bruce lee on you in the debate threads...


[edit on 3-1-2010 by the_grand_pooh-bah]

reply to post by Matrix777


I agree completely, for someone to travel from another country to the us is considerable different then someone walking across a non existent border.

and the major problem is people who have no idea whats involved over simplify the whole process.

It is far from simple and far more expensive, even the people charged with processing the forms often have no idea what to do and often screw up the paper work, causing the immigrants added expense and often causing the applicant to be penalized or excluded because of there incompetence.

Its always the old saying "well its the law" until it's them. the problem is so simple its ridiculous, and that is the process is cumbersome, expensive and much to complicated to work.

but I feel confident that the die hard's on here will argue the legal issue instead of the MORAL one. Meanwhile standing by the polititans and corporate CEO rape pillage and steal the very future they think there protecting from those bad illegals.

nothing but a nice diversion to keep the sheep busy.

reply to post by semperfortis


I would suggest you move to Georgia and have try to have oral sex, you would be a criminal there. ITS THE LAW!!

Originally posted by svpwizard
but I feel confident that the die hard's on here will argue the legal issue instead of the MORAL one. Meanwhile standing by the polititans and corporate CEO rape pillage and steal the very future they think there protecting from those bad illegals.

nothing but a nice diversion to keep the sheep busy.

If it does cost thousands due to them 'screwing forms up', how do they expect to get a job in the first place if they dont have the skills to fill a form out? Wherever these forms are obtained from there's bound to be advice given on filling them out anyway.

Its not purely about the legal issues. In fact the legal issues do represent the moral issues to a degree. Is it moral for someone to reside in a country, get free healthcare whilst making no contribution to the country, or the services that they are provided with? And then when/if these people are arrested, its once again the people who do work legally in a country that have to fork out for court costs and their flight home.

It must be a horrible situation to be in, and it does seem harsh to deny these people a better life. But a line has to be drawn somewhere. While I think it should be addressed on a case-by-case basis where possible, if there werent any regulations on immigrants then soon enough all the rich countries such as america & the UK would be in the same state as the 3rd world countries.

the financial crisis our respective governments are in has NOTHING to do with the illegal immigrants.

it is because our fearless leaders are giving away billions in bailouts to buisnesses and selling us out at every opportunity.

they are coming either way,you can welcome and help them or stare and hate them.

the politicians are responsible for the crises we are in,not villagers from whatever 3rd world country.

reply to post by Bluebelle


as I said, people talking about something they have absolutely NO idea what there talking about.

NO BENEFITS ARE RECEIVED...... they pay taxes and receive no benefit in the way of social aid, they only contribute, that's the main reason the government doesn't actively try to stop it.

OMFG you just don't get it. I lived and worked in the country for 25+ years, illegally, raised 3 children and was married twice, I paid taxed every single year federal, state and FICA. I am not entitled nor can I get one red scent back.

I and millions of others contributed to your now BANKRUPT government and I / we never took anything out.

Yet you still talk about all the social services we use, just totally floors me how completely ignorant people can truly be.

So much illogic in this thread I dont even know where to start and so I wont. I will simply say that the people who have posted against so called illegal immigration have exposed their deep thoughts as being puddle depth.