Saul, Adherent of Christ or Anti Christ?

Originally posted by Joecroft
I guess I’m looking at this from my own perspective of believing in a God. I didn’t have any religious upbringing and when I first met Christians, I couldn’t just believe the bible by faith. My first step was just to try and believe there could be a God and I started to study creationism and the theory of evolution etc, even though I had no scientific background at all. I rejected creationism and I also began to realize that science did not have all the answers either. To cut a long story short and to try and bring this back to my point, I can’t prove there is a God and neither can anybody else, so faith has to come into the picture somewhere.

You can not prove God to another person. But you can experience and know for yourself. And once among those who have that experience, they should all generally speak of the same basic things. It is in that manner that I see Jesus. Jesus speaks of those things which I experienced and so I can see the father within him.

It's like the smell of a flower. I could never prove the smell of a flower to you or anyone else. The only way a person can know the smell of a flower is for them to actually experience the smell for themselves. And once among those who have smelled a flower, then things will be common knowledge among them.

Yet, does belief in the smell of the flower or the flower bring about that experience? No it does not. In order to have that experience and know, one must seek it out. One can repeat the flower has a smell and believe the smell exists but it's nothing more than a belief. And if he is content in that belief, then he's never truly going to seek the flower out to smell it.

All I see in religion are people who have just accepted the belief the flower has a smell, and then they praise things that have actually smelled it, but then they do whatever and never seek it out for themselves.

We can say of you is that you had a desire to seek, and your found religion/belief is a sign of that. Yet why settle for less than the experience itself? And in this way, religion becomes a replacement for that experience for millions of people - especially since religion tells them to do so. Not to mention the previous problems mentioned with belief in terms of people expecting god to mold to their beliefs, rather than the other way around.

You have to seek the father, religion is hand feed to people. If you will eat it, then it's going to be fed to you. If you don't like whats being fed to you, then one must seek their own food and learn to feed themselves.

reply to post by badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia
You can not prove God to another person. But you can experience and know for yourself. And once among those who have that experience, they should all generally speak of the same basic things. It is in that manner that I see Jesus. Jesus speaks of those things which I experienced and so I can see the father within him.

Yes, I now know God is real for myself. Although about a year and a half ago my belief in a God was something like 70% understanding/knowledge and about 30% based on faith. This is what I mean about faith not being blind because there is always going to be some level of understanding, even if that understanding is different from one individual to another.

Originally posted by badmedia
Yet, does belief in the smell of the flower or the flower bring about that experience? No it does not.

Yes you are right it does not bring about the experience but it can help to lead someone to it, providing they don’t just stay put but instead continue to seek.

Originally posted by badmedia
In order to have that experience and know, one must seek it out.

How can you seek out something, you don’t believe exists!? (Rhetorical question…)


Obviously I’m thinking along the lines of a person’s initial belief or search for God. When someone starts to seek for God but are not sure if God exists, they are in effect, exercising a certain degree of faith, just to be able to start seeking. Speaking from my own point of view, I began to search, having about 1% of faith that God might be real. Without that tiny leap of faith, I would never have started to search, to begin with.


I began looking into many things like scientific questions, the bible and things of a spiritual nature. It’s hard to describe exactly what happened to me, it was kind of a new knowledge combined with deep spiritual experiences, which I now believe were from God. I started out as an atheist but when I began to question certain knowledge that is taken for granted, I started to have doubts about my own preconceptions, which in turn led to me becoming agnostic. Once I became agnostic, I became open to more things and began to look deeper for answers.


The born of the spirit experience you are talking about, has and does get experienced by Christians, although some denominations don’t practice in the spirit, but the ones that do, have experienced it. The Holy Spirit gives different knowledge or gifts to different people for different reasons, so things may not always be the same, it depends from person to person.



- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
Yes you are right it does not bring about the experience but it can help to lead someone to it, providing they don’t just stay put but instead continue to seek.

Yet the desire itself was existing before that. As such, how can we credit the religion with it? It was the desire that first lead them to religion to begin with. If they had no desire for it, then they wouldn't be in a religion outside you know people who are born into it and so forth.

And how many do go further? Not many. Most do stay put. If we had a drain that water went down, if 90% of the drain is blocked by something that prevents all the water going down the drain(and the water wants to eventually do such) - do we increase that which is blocking it, or is better off removed?

This is what Jesus was talkign about in terms that the Pharisees would block out the kingdom of heaven to people and deny them to enter. That is what religion is doing in most cases.

How can you seek out something, you don’t believe exists!? (Rhetorical question…)

I know you asked rhetorically, but it's actually a very very good question that has a very very good answer.

I wasn't seeking "god" when I found the father. I didn't believe god existed or anything else. I was only seeking understanding. I was seeking the way in which men would need to act in order to have a peaceful society and things of that nature. I looked at the evil in the world, and I wondered why is it like this, why does it need to be like this and so forth.

And I didn't even realize it at the time, but I was literally searching for the "truth, the way, and a light to direct me".

A Christian will say that only by Jesus can one come by the father, but I see it as only by the truth, the way and the light can one come by the father.

The reason one needs to become as a child is to get rid of all those beliefs. A child is honest in it's ignorance and doesn't pretend to know(belief).

The only wild card here is none of us can judge the extent to which the father will go to show people, or how the events in someone's lives will eventually lead them to such. Even as I was once an atheist before, that didn't stop events that happened after. And it was the events in my life, and what I seen in the world that eventually lead me correctly - along with my honesty in my search - I had no biases/beliefs.

I just wanted to know and understand the truth, whatever it may have been. Which is again what blew me away about Jesus when I read him after - because I seen it repeated.




[edit on 2/26/2010 by badmedia]

This is a very interesting thread. I have an idea that keeps repeating in my head from reading this thread.


Some ideas in Religion are said to come directly from the teachings of the Jesus, and many other teachings or beliefs of the church do not come directly from the teachings of Jesus.

How much of the way people believe in God, go to church, and the ideas associated with church and religion are connected to the teachings of Jesus?

and

How much of the way people believe in God, go to church, and the ideas associated with church and religion are not connected to the teachings of Jesus?

My understanding is that, people should follow the words of Jesus. They should think about them and use then as a logic key, which can be used to decipher any religious texts to come into existence, thereafter.

Along that line of thinking, a lot of the things people do to be part of their religion seems rather contradictory. From my interpretation it may teach to not do something, but later people alter the message and pass tradition on to younger people that may be in contradiction to previous teachings in the Book?

reply to post by badmedia



Hey badmedia…


I’m not sure if you will get the chance to read this reply, because I know you have just recently been banned from ATS, but I wanted to post it anyway. I only wished I had replied to your last post sooner because it has left a deep impression on me.


I feel our conversation about faith on this thread, was inspired by God, and that anyone reading it will have learned a lot about faith. I also feel that our meeting here on ATS was no accident, especially when I heard the voice of God asking me “what is man” and then seeing you discuss exactly the same topic on another thread, not long after my experience.


It’s been great talking to you about various religious topics and other things here on ATS and I believe you do know the Father/God and that you are truly blessed.


Goodbye my friend…


God bless you and your family…



- Joe


[edit on 10-3-2010 by Joecroft]