ATTENTION Patriots / Birthers / Teabaggers / Whomever - If you did get your Revolution, Then What?

Originally posted by endisnighe
So now after how many pages, you are going to start actually talk about what you have in the OP.

What a scam.

Post an OP and then you and your buds just attack and deride every poster that does not agree with you on your progressive stances.

Foolish foolish children, when will they ever grow up.

Welcome to the real world child.

There are a few things you must learn before you go out into it.

Maybe someday you will learn them.

But thanks for the idea for my latest thread where I give the commenters equal footing. Not post a venus flytrap for my own amusement.

Ignore is very close at hand.,

Here is a couple of examples of what you call equal footing.

Your Edict


The very next post

Aside from your edict being rather "Tyrannical" for a Freedom loving Patriot.

the following post reveals your penchant for not realizing when you have contradicted yourself.

By all means hit the ignore button.

I'll gladly not discuss anything with you as I said in one the posts "you" claim I never posted because I was sitting back gloating about how I had snared you all in my Venus Fly trap.

It's amazing to me that you have not realized how you have presented yourself in this thread. If you had, you would not be showing face here from shame.

But that's ok.

I welcome you posting here. You have proven yourself to be one of the most valuable proponent of your ideology on this thread.

I applaud you for your efforts to re-write the Constitution. I'm sure when you and your buddies are finished it will be very enlightening.

I have one question that puzzles me though.

In your thread I read that you felt a "certain Party" would find your finished work helpful or something like that. please clarify.

When you said "Party" did you mean a person, or a Political Party?
If it's not a person, to which party are you referring to? If it is a person, is it too much to ask whom? or is the New Utopia going to have open and transparent origins.

Your Avatar also proclaims you are a "Politician" is that a new career based on your new status as Constitutional Scholar? or is that accurate of your occupation. Because if you are a Politician, then wouldn't that mean that the new constitution is being drafted by Politicians?

I'm curious because I thought you and your fellow new "founding fathers" were not for the any specific Political Party, or for that matter Politicians.

Ziggy

reply to post by ziggystrange


I think I am about done with ATS if this is the caliber of responses that it has come to.

Seriously? Totalitarian? Every point of that thread, every single number listed REVOKES POWERS of the federal government.

totalitarian
to-tal-i-tar-i-an
-adjective

1. of or pertaining to a centralized government that does not tolerate parties of differing opinion and that exercises dictatorial control over many aspects of life.
2. exercising control over the freedom, will, or thought of others; authoritarian; autocratic.




It is funny, because just by listening to the suggestions of other people and editing it accordingly, that takes defination number one out. Definition number two is self explanatory as the whole bount is returning the freedom and responsibility back to the people.


Seriously, do you read what you type or is it just an unending chain of put downs on something you don't agree with, even if it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. You spew the world totalitarian around like it is nothing and then there are people that will look at that and say "oh no, THAT word, that's bad".


You, my friend, do not want to research or learn anything. It is quite obvious that the goal of this topic is to put a smear to the patriot movement. You aren't the first to attempt such and you won't be the last. The problem is, when people find out about liers, they aren't as quick to forgive and forget. So you pick your spots, you, OldDragger, and a few other clowns in here ignore the relevent points and target only the radical extremist points. Wukky just comes in and starts blabbering about patriots putting people in death camps and gas chambers, something there is no fact or any hint of WHATSOEVER, and in the end, you all get your jollies off.

You guys automatically assume that we are attempting to create a tyrannical form of rule and when we try to prove otherwise, you do nothing but force it down our throats. We flat out deny it and you ignore it. We give proof of it and you pass it by. Anything that you HAVE tried to deface that was actually relevent was nothing more than a flood of "in my opinion" or "I believe" responses of whether or not YOU feel something could succeed, whether it is plausible, and whether YOU want it or not.

When the American Revolution is brought up, people ignore that as well or perhaps choose to use the argument that "times have changed, it isn't the same" when in reality it is the damn same. The only difference today is that the tyrannical leaders aren't seperated from us by an ocean.



Who are you anti-revolutionists to decide what is best for the future of this country? Of course you could bring that question back on us, and I would have the answered quite prepared.

If a revolution does break out are you going to fight against it? Are you going to put your lives on the line to preserve the nation that you feel is so great? Would you be willing to sacrifice your lives to save on of the corrupt politicians in Washington? I think most would not. In fact, I think most would do what they can to continue their mundane form of life - their internet time, their television, and you can't forget the weekly sports that consume their lives in place of real values.

On the other foot, revolutionaries, especially those who are willing to fight do have a say simply because we ARE willing to fight. We are ready to die to fight and protect that which we stand for - just like the founding fathers did so many years ago.

And guess what? Those 3%, that minority that won the United States of America, they made the right decision didn't they? Why is that? Because they knew that it was important enough to fight and die to defend. Are you going to say that we are not better off thanks to the actions of that minority? Obviously, sometimes people need to have somebody else think for them so that they might have a chance to think for themselves.



So don't worry about us revolutionaries, us patriots, us "armchair warriors" as you call us. Sure, some of us may only talk a big game right now, but I know for a fact that the majority of US would gladly fight and die for what we believe, while the majority of YOU would much sooner flee and never look back.

Originally posted by ziggystrange
reply to post by Lilitu

 

Hi Lilitu.

If you think this crew has posted some whako stuff on this thread, you may want to stop by the other thread they started.

Link Here

That will give you a much closer look at what they "really" want, and how they are deciding your future in their new Utopia.

It's a real eye opener.

Ziggy

Yes I already read it. The words "Epic Fail" come to mind.

Personally, I think you all should give up this ''independance'' experiment and come back into the fold under the leadership and governence of HM the Queen. You will be forgiven, I promise

reply to post by gwydionblack


you, OldDragger, and a few other clowns in here ignore the relevent points and target only the radical extremist points.

As if your whole premise isn't some pie in the sky radical extremist
pipe dream? The radical nutcases ARE the relevant part> These people are your revolution, your fellow patriots. To turn them loose, armed, is inviting death and disaster.
You go on to say things are just the same now as in 1776?
Here's one glaring flaw.
You have no Jefferson.
no Franklin.
no Adams.
No washington
These men, and the rest of the founders were exceptional people, the most enlightened and educated of their time. the pillars of the community as it were.
You have nothing comparable. No intellect, no leadership, you don't even have a unifying philosophy. just a bunch of mostly right wing, religion obssesed, uneducated paranoid and pissed off people that can't even articulate what they want in a rational way. what a winning combination.
You seem so upset that people just don't support you, that's very revealing. Produce a Jefferson or Adams instead of armchair internet "patriots' and maybe, just maybe people with a brain might take you seriously.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by OldDragger]

Originally posted by endisnighe
So now after how many pages, you are going to start actually talk about what you have in the OP.

What a scam.

Post an OP and then you and your buds just attack and deride every poster that does not agree with you on your progressive stances.

Foolish foolish children, when will they ever grow up.

Welcome to the real world child.

There are a few things you must learn before you go out into it.

Maybe someday you will learn them.

But thanks for the idea for my latest thread where I give the commenters equal footing. Not post a venus flytrap for my own amusement.

Ignore is very close at hand.,

Actually, I haven't really talked to any of the people that I've had like-mindedness with this thread before this. I don't think it was any kind of trap for you, and calling all of us children because we are progressives is just showing how paranoid and out of touch you have become. Your ideas were heard, and found disagreeable by many people, as such you were challenged.

This is closer to the real world, were for every one person whom would stand to bring down the United States, there are a hundred or a thousand that will stand to preserve her. We are as intelligent as you, as mature, we just disagree. The closer you come to your "revolution" whatever form it will take, the harder the people will push back against you. We think you are wrong, and we will preserve America.

reply to post by OldDragger


You don't know any of us and you didn't know those men. You don't know our philosophies or ideologies, you simply assume.

I can't speak for most other people but I have studied Jefferson and Franklin closely throughout my life. I consider my philosophy a mix between the two of them as each had their flaws in some capacity. However, it is their strengths which I choose to embellish.

There are plenty of Jeffersons, Franklins, Adams, and Washingtons out there, but even if they hit you across the mouth with their ideologies you would spit at them just as you do now. You bury any sense of a revolution based on a few, and you somehow find that because of the opinions of a few that we are somehow better off in a state controlled scheme of tyranny.


To now call us collectively unintelligent, leaderless, and lacking in philosophy, has now earned you one step closer to being ignored. Congrats as it is one step closer to being the first person I have ever ignored.

No, we don't have exact replicas of our founding fathers because we were not raised in the conditions they were in. However, we are not as weak and unorganized as you think.

And not only do we have a matching philosophy, but it is something each and every one of us agree on EVEN our founding fathers - its called the Constitution. Thankfully they were kind enough to write their ideals down for us.




It is because of people like you that domestic terrorism is caused. Because it is people like you that make revolutionaries realize that really there is no hope for this country, the people are next to worthless, and they will never open their eyes. Not my view, but I'm sure it is the view of many others who decide not to care any longer about the value of the life of innocents.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by gwydionblack]

reply to post by gwydionblack


Really?

So Totalitarian can only be applied to a description of a "Central" GOV?

Typical of your ilk, you wrap yourself in the meaning of the first definition, while ignoring the second which to a person that reads what they are writing for RELEVANCE, would indicate that the term has an alternative form of usage independent of the first.

That is what Dictionaries are for, to clarify and disambiguate, while explaining a spectrum of usage that is in line with the construction of the language.

Additionally, here is another concept you seem not to be able to grasp.
A "State Government" is just as much at risk of being corrupted, and Tyrannical as any "Government" . After all is not a State a plurality of Congressional districts?

Since you and your cronies have undertaken the task of "whatever you want to call it" the Constitution, it is your responsibility to at a minimum have a basic understanding of the usage of language.

Words and what they means are very important in a "Constitution".

The "Union" which also somehow seems to escape you so called Patriots, was something the Founding Fathers recognized as essential to the Revolution.

You say

Quote "You guys automatically assume that we are attempting to create a tyrannical form of rule and when we try to prove otherwise, you do nothing but force it down our throats." End Quote

You bet I believe you are attempting to create a Tyrannical form of rule. However I did not assume anything, you and your cronies convinced me.

Yes, when you try to prove otherwise with lies, spurious accusations, misleading thread titles, and OP's, the appropriate response is to surgically force your lies right back where they came from through the use of logic, and pointing out your mendacious maundering.

Quote "We flat out deny it and you ignore it. We give proof of it and you pass it by." End Quote

A denial that is an attempt to rationalize a lie, should be ignored, or proven to be what it is. A lie intended to alter the perception of another lie. To pass by proof, that is not "proof" is an act of kindness.

Quote "Anything that you HAVE tried to deface that was actually relevent was nothing more than a flood of "in my opinion" or "I believe" responses of whether or not YOU feel something could succeed, whether it is plausible, and whether YOU want it or not." End Quote

You say I don't read what "I" type?

According to you, unless you step up and claim that what you are saying is an absolute fact, then anyone who by way of disagreement rebuts what you are saying is unfairly "defacing" an opinion, or belief, because the fact that they believe otherwise, or I think is implausible is not a valid enough reason?

Here is one you can try to deface like you say I do. The previous paragraph is a perfect example of how you "revoke" free thinking, and "Suppress" free speech. In this case by negating the intrinsic value of an opposing point of view, with the claim that it is not valid because it only opposes an opinion or someones belief. What about the idea that a dissenters opinion/belief is as valid as the "Proponents" opinion/belief?
In the realm of rational thought, this is Tyrannical, and Totalitarian thinking on your Part.

Quote "Who are you anti-revolutionists to decide what is best for the future of this country? Of course you could bring that question back on us, and I would have the answered quite prepared.

If a revolution does break out are you going to fight against it? SNIP.." End Quote

Oh buddy, you betcha, and my target is certain to be "Revolutionaries" so put me on your list of enemies right now. After having read what you people have to say, I'm not only ready to fight you, I'm prepared to do it with the complete certainty that for you to succeed would be the greatest disaster to ever face mankind. So yes, take at least me seriously. I can't speak for anyone else "Yet".

Quote "And guess what? Those 3%, that minority that won the United States of America, they made the right decision didn't they? Why is that? Because they knew that it was important enough to fight and die to defend. Are you going to say that we are not better off thanks to the actions of that minority? Obviously, sometimes people need to have somebody else think for them so that they might have a chance to think for themselves." End Quote

Yes they made the right decision, yes it was absolutely right to fight and die to defend, and we are much better off for the judicious actions of that minority. See how easy it is not to have something shoved down your throat?
All you have to do is make some sense.

Now watch the inverse.

However, the last sentence in your paragraph clearly reveals a disturbing component of your psyche, and unfortunately by default, destroys your credibility as a thinker. None of us need you, or your deluded cronies to think for us because we can't think for ourselves, this is beyond the pale. It's a perfect Orwellian fantasy, and a dangerous one at that.

You should be the last person working on the protocols of Freedom for a "better" America. You own words indict you at every opportunity.

Quote "So don't worry about us revolutionaries, us patriots, us "armchair warriors" as you call us. Sure, some of us may only talk a big game right now, but I know for a fact that the majority of US would gladly fight and die for what we believe, while the majority of YOU would much sooner flee and never look back." End Quote

Now there you go again! I'm not worried about you in the least. You know for a fact? I guess then maybe you really can read minds. Nice trick when you are thinking for us others.

A final question, You say you are ready to leave ATS over a thread and some posts, and we are supposed to believe you are so mentally strong, and
courageous that you are ready to lay down life an limb for your cause?

Sorry pal, but I think I can safely assume you will turn tail the moment you feel put upon. Cowardice in debate probably means plain old Cowardly in everything. But that is only my opinion, which is why I strongly believe your insurrection is not plausible, and your attempts at doing "whatever" to our Constitution will be the hysterical butt of endless jokes on ATS.

One last observation.

Read what you write a few times before you accuse another person of not doing it.

It's safer.

Cheers
Ziggy

reply to post by gwydionblack


If you actually build your "revolution" you can mark me as an enemy too there mate. You should also mark most of the populations of the United Kingdom and Canada. We've got our best friend America's back. Not to mention the fact that it will probably really anger China that their biggest market and biggest debtor is being overthrown. Oh and NATO would probably have a little something to say about the matter as well. The same with the European Union, Australia, Israel, India and Russia most likely, they're good friends of the United States and historical enemies of fascism.

Have fun with that fight there mate.

reply to post by ziggystrange


Grow up. Continue playing coy and continue not using common sense for all I care. The apology was towards you and was highly evident it was towards you.

It isn't me backing down, it isn't me changing my position. It is me conceding that it would be highly off-topic and you have no desire to actually read what I have wrote, only generalize and dodge.

I really don't care because I try to stay away from baseless personal attacks whereas your irrelevant semi-witty, semi-sarcastic reply that you posted to me actually gave me a good hearty laugh.

If you wish it to be torn apart. I will gladly do so. But under the T&Cs here that would be considered a personal attack and lack of decorum. So you sir, have a good day.

reply to post by gwydionblack

Wukky just comes in and starts blabbering about patriots putting people in death camps and gas chambers, something there is no fact or any hint of WHATSOEVER, and in the end, you all get your jollies off.

I am just looking to history to see what the future might hold. Fact of the matter is, most revolutions are quite bloody.

1) Russian Revolution

2) Cuban Revolution

3) American Civil War

4) The Rise of Hitler

Basically the common theme to all the above is exactly what your saying as well. You see the government as oppressive and unable to do the work that it needs to do. So you want to overthrow it and install your own version of government that will do the work you think it should do.

And for some strange reason you don't think that innocent people will die due to causing a civil war in this country.

You are saying the same exact same things that Timothy McVeigh said before the Oklahoma City Bombing and you don't want me to look back on history to see how this might turn out?

Don't ask me to turn a blind eye to history to see what might happen if a revolution breaks out in this country. Because history is the best teacher, and when people start talking about revolution it's necessary to look back to see what might lie ahead.

As intolerant as most people are on the extreme right I do fear that this revolution will turn into a genocide.

Originally posted by ownbestenemy
reply to post by ziggystrange

 

Grow up. Continue playing coy and continue not using common sense for all I care. The apology was towards you and was highly evident it was towards you.

It isn't me backing down, it isn't me changing my position. It is me conceding that it would be highly off-topic and you have no desire to actually read what I have wrote, only generalize and dodge.

I really don't care because I try to stay away from baseless personal attacks whereas your irrelevant semi-witty, semi-sarcastic reply that you posted to me actually gave me a good hearty laugh.

If you wish it to be torn apart. I will gladly do so. But under the T&Cs here that would be considered a personal attack and lack of decorum. So you sir, have a good day.

So your aspersions, false accusations, and insinuations are not personal attacks, not at all lacking in decorum. It's my responses that are offensive because I don't answer to your satisfaction, and I'm coy, and sarcastic.

Noted.

But if you were using your real intellect to tear me apart, it would be a violation of T & C. I suspected that but I did not want to elaborate, lest I, be in violation of T & C.

Well I guess that explains the lack of substance and coherency.
I actually thought you were just being yourself.

Tell me how do you explain the deception, and condescension?
Is telling the truth, and being civil, also a violation?

Next time I change position and apologize to someone I have falsely accused of something, I'll be sure to post it as a response to some other person.

I guess I'm just over my head debating you guys.
Must be my lack of common sense.

Us non-Revolutionists will bone up, but somehow, I get the feeling that if your big revolt comes to pass, we won't be doing much debating.

Maybe then you will get your chance to tear me apart. Who knows, maybe there won't be terms and conditions to deter you then.

If this comes to pass maybe you can terminate my nonsense.
I have no illusions about you and your Patriot cohorts.

You are my enemy, and I will deal with you accordingly.

Thank you for showing us your true nature.

Thank you collectively for proving to me, and others that you(plural) are not individuals thinkers, but a hive of drones loosely bound by Helter Skelter peeves, and a lot of fear, and anger.

You are right about one thing, this thread, and more so, the shady deceptive self serving spin off you guys are building, has and will do harm to your cause.

My conclusion this far is that your "movement" is nothing but a circle jerk, and it's is so reassuring, that threads like this one, are not even required for you to show yourselves for what you are.

I'll tell you one thing I learned. I actually thought most of you were Racist, and the problem was you could not stomach a Black President.

I was wrong.

That may have been the trigger, but the real problem is much more sobering.

Time and education can; if not cure, at least mitigate Racism.

The only solution for what ails your rabble is straight Jackets, and pink padded walls.

You already lost, and nobody got hurt.
Ziggy

With all the talk of revolution I hear whispered or shouted in the workplace and in the street, at this point i think it's hard to ignore the fact that it's plausible.

Ladies and Gentlemen, for your approval - I pose that a revolution IS coming, and is already underway.. The questions that face us are: Will it be peaceful, or violent? Will it be orchestrated by the government, or by the people? Will it be for good, or for evil? and lastly, Will the end result be true Liberty....or true Tyranny?

There are as many of "We the people" who would fight and die for Liberty as there are elected government officials and soldiers who would do the same. Just as the same can be said for tyranny. I will no more let my neighbor become a tyrant than i would my government. As stated previously in this thread, yes i am a soldier. And yes, when asked what I swore to uphold and defend against all enemies foreign AND domestic, I can answer without hesitation or remorse - The Constitution of the United States; as can every man and women I've asked that I serve with. I often get the same reaction one would expect when asking a physicist what one plus one equals. I know this cannot be said of all soldiers from all branches, but I think it bears recognition.

The fact that many who have served in the past, as well as many who currently serve this great nation will not sit idly by and watch her people be raped of liberty any more than the average common man. This does not mean that a violent revolution cannot be averted.

The question that we must all ask ourselves is will I ignore the current shift in paradigm, or will I help shape it? Will I stand on the side of Liberty, or that of Tyranny?

Originally posted by Wotan
Personally, I think you all should give up this ''independance'' experiment and come back into the fold under the leadership and governence of HM the Queen. You will be forgiven, I promise

That's hilarious Wotan.

Thanks for posting.

You know, after reading the stuff I read in this thread, if the Revolution does happen (no chance) and these jokers have anything to do with it (is there less than no chance).

A Monarchy like yours, would actually be less repressive and Tyrannical than what they propose.

Nice to meet you.

Ziggy

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by gwydionblack

 

Wukky just comes in and starts blabbering about patriots putting people in death camps and gas chambers, something there is no fact or any hint of WHATSOEVER, and in the end, you all get your jollies off.

I am just looking to history to see what the future might hold. Fact of the matter is, most revolutions are quite bloody.

1) Russian Revolution

2) Cuban Revolution

3) American Civil War

4) The Rise of Hitler

Basically the common theme to all the above is exactly what your saying as well. You see the government as oppressive and unable to do the work that it needs to do. So you want to overthrow it and install your own version of government that will do the work you think it should do.

And for some strange reason you don't think that innocent people will die due to causing a civil war in this country.

You are saying the same exact same things that Timothy McVeigh said before the Oklahoma City Bombing and you don't want me to look back on history to see how this might turn out?

Don't ask me to turn a blind eye to history to see what might happen if a revolution breaks out in this country. Because history is the best teacher, and when people start talking about revolution it's necessary to look back to see what might lie ahead.

As intolerant as most people are on the extreme right I do fear that this revolution will turn into a genocide.

A List of Peaceful Revolutions:

1.) The Overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii (1893)

2.) The Hawaii Democratic Revolution (1954)

3.) People Power Revolution (Philippines 1986)

4.) East Germany's Peaceful Revolution (1989)

5.) Hungary's Peaceful Revolution (1989)

6.) The Velvet Revolution of Czechoslovakia (1989)

7.) The Republican Revolution (1994)

To a lesser degree and perhaps not entirely relevant to this thread, there was the;

8.) Industrial Revolution (18th to 19th century) and...

9.) The Sexual Revolution (1960's to 70's)

The fact of the matter is that increasingly revolutions have become more and more peaceful and change can indeed be implemented without resorting to violence. Calling for change and railing against a current regime or government is not necessarily the rantings of Timothy McVeigh like lunatics. Although, I have no doubt that the East German, Czechoslovakian and government of Hungary did their very best to frame the peaceful protesters, many of whom who were demonstrably angry and very vocal about their anger, as Tim McVeigh type "homegrown" terrorists, what prevailed was effective change brought about through peaceful means.

reply to post by blood0fheroes


Hi BOH,

I agree a Revolt is always plausible, that is one of the strong points in our charter.

I agree strongly that violence can, and should be averted.

For me this one is a 1+1=2 answer.

I will stand and die if I have to for Liberty.

Ziggy

reply to post by ziggystrange


I'm sorry but what part of a democratic republic that guarantees civil and individual rights to all people of all faiths and of all skin colors and heritage that believes people shouldn't be taxed simply because they own something is tyrannical and oppressive?

reply to post by ziggystrange

Indeed, and whats really sad is that the peaceful revolution takes more courage...It goes like this:
Start talking to friends, family, neighbors, co-workers, and just random people on the street. Debate with them the values of Liberty, and in the process, show them how much of it we have lost just in the last 20 years (you cant miss something you never knew was yours).

And here's the part that take coconuts for juevos.....Run for office and face possible rejection. How much easier it would be to start spraying bullets than to do this.

Teabaggers actually exist? So do you guys do it for fun or do you just make videos to put online?

reply to post by whatukno

Are you capable of coming up with an argument that doesn't need to draw comparisons towards fascists, nazis, or dictators to make a point? I mean seriously you keep ignoring and cherry picking your data and making straw men arguments. ARGUE THE MERITS OF THE ARGUMENT

So is this the game you are going to play? You are only going to Cite the revolutions that took place that were lead out by generally bad people? Wow you are a textbook case of selective listening, you would make a horrible scientist. Let's take a look at some other revolutions, uprisings and revolts that took place that were lead out by your so called "extremists." I even included ones that involved Nazis and dictators since you seem to be so preoccupied by them.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...



And as far as that timothy mcveigh quote goes. That is pathetic. We wouldn't bomb random federal buildings. The oklahoma federal building had a goddamned daycare in it FFS. Why would we bomb buildings with daycares? We wouldn't bomb buildings with daycares and we wouldn't bomb buildings in general. Why? Like i said, you have no clue how a violent uprising would even take place. The very purpose of a violent uprising such as the ones i have proposed are made with the safety of other people in mind. There is no room for bombing buildings in my revolution, there is too much of a risk of harming passerby's and uninvolved people.

But again, i can not make this clearer.
PEACEFUL REVOLUTION IS FAVORED.