ATS has been infiltrated with agents of ignorance!

Don't point your fingers at us agents of ignorance...you're the one that is supposed to deny us...yet...YOU WELCOMED US WITH OPEN ARMS!

IMO at times the OP want's to maybe just 'talk' about a subject without the skeptics and doomsayers laying in and just saying 'it wont work' 'it can't work' 'it never happened' etc etc etc ! People of like minds sometimes want to discuss something along the lines of 'well how do you think it works' reply 'i think it works so' ! But this is very hard sometimes without the spoilers and slaters jumping on them and wrecking the debate ! Fair enough have your say and then step back let the people who are discussing something carry on don't be like a dog with a bone and start attacking them and demanding they PROVE something or give you the EVIDENCE ! They are discussing something ! They may not know what makes something work they may not know what happened ! Sometimes it's just small talk a gentle discussion about a particular thing ! Don't get me wrong i like a good bit of banter but sometimes it get's ugly and in the end tiresome ! We are all here to learn, discover and investigate things, question what's really happening and going on ! Stop the bitterness, the personal attacks and back-biting and let's work together to solve the riddle's the mysteries, whatever Lets try and be a bit more civil ! We can still be civil and debate surely ?

reply to post by downisreallyup


ATS has been infiltrated with agents of ignorance? Really?

I find it curious that someone who has only been here for a single month feels they have the authority to comment on the ATS culture with any degree of certainty.

The irony of this is that it kinda makes the author of this thread an agent of ignorance!

The only influx ATS has been getting of late is of whinging malcontents.

IRM :shk:



[edit on 20/12/09 by InfaRedMan]

reply to post by InfaRedMan


It should'nt matter whether you've been here five years or five minute's ! I myself have only been here a short time and as i said earlier I don't mind a bit of friendly banter and livelely debate it's when it gets ugly and personal ! People questioning another's integrity even mental health ! That's what should stop ! I don't like to meddle in anyones argument or debate but i had to 'step in' recently where someones mental health was questioned after this person had only relayed an incident that happened to them and politely asked for peoples views ! The very first poster laid into them and rather than explain nicely that in they're view it could'nt happen as they said it did, they proceeded to call the OP delusional ! That in my opinion was uncalled for and out of order when all the OP was doing was seeking some kind of explanation ! I had to step in and tell them they were a bully ! Don't you agree ?



[edit on 073131p://12America/Chicago20 by ProRipp]

Originally posted by LocoHombre
Oh, here's THIS thread again.

seriously, i think everyone gets the point by now. this is the, what, 1,000,000,000,000th thread on this?

[edit on 18-12-2009 by LocoHombre]

Ooops I think you have just the ranks of those the OP was complaining about. However the OP missed your tactic.....shoot the messenger!

The reason why there are more threads like this is that there are a significant number of THINKING people here on ATS are just getting fed up with drivel that has permeated throughout ATS.

My own interpretation is that we used to have a 10000 or so wacky websites each with their own weird audience of a 100 or so people. Those "wackies" have slowly discovered ATS so 10000 * 100 on ATS is 1 million wacky posters and so what was a decent forum for intelligent discussion has degenerated into a forum for the sad.

reply to post by ProRipp
I for one don't agree,if some one logs on to ATS just to tell someone they are a "Bully" then how are you any different then they are??

Hey Mods,do you see a pattern developing here?where did all the thin skinned politically correct people come from all of a sudden?

Ok everyone lets all sit around and sing Comebyya or what ever it is.Some people need to man or woman up and hit the Ignore button.........there you go ,see how easy that was.

Originally posted by Battleline
reply to post by ProRipp

 

I for one don't agree,if some one logs on to ATS just to tell someone they are a "Bully" then how are you any different then they are??

Hey Mods,do you see a pattern developing here?where did all the thin skinned politically correct people come from all of a sudden?

Ok everyone lets all sit around and sing Comebyya or what ever it is.Some people need to man or woman up and hit the Ignore button.........there you go ,see how easy that was.

Exactly my point ! I didn't just log on to call them a bully i was reading what the OP was relating and the very next post was just an attack ! I wasnt the only person to jump to the OP's defence !

[edit on 20 Dec 2009 by schrodingers dog]

Originally posted by downisreallyup
It is very frustrating to try and intelligently discuss a matter when a thread is hijacked and derailed by people who have no desire for truth. It is really unbelievable how people behave here at times, when I'm sure they would never get away with such tactics in their jobs... or maybe they do

I am referring to the various tactics that I have seen employed here on ATS that are clearly either intentional disinfo and deflection, or extreme cases of impaired mental processes.

Here are some of the tactics I am referring to:

1) If a topic dealing with Zero-Point Energy is introduced, there emerges a raft of people who spring forth claiming "impossible", or "hoax", when they have not introduced one shred of proof that it is a hoax. And no matter what points you bring up to try and convince them, they do not come back with counter-ARGUMENTS, they come back with more epithets of derision. This is highly suspicious of a prejudiced agenda of disinformation, and here is why:

A) If the subject was really a hoax, why are they so enthusiastic about saying so? Why are they so passionate about resisting it with chanted mantras of "hoax", and not with one shred of evidence? Why are they so driven to keep man bound in the current shackles of current understanding? They are clearly afraid of something, but what? What is motivating them, if not some agenda to dissuade others from pursuing the truth in the matter?

B) If they really had any solid arguments against the supposed hoax, why do they not present them? Why do they not make a solid case to support their accusations? Why do they commit such slander against others, not providing one shred of evidence to their claims? They say things like "if that were me, I would do it this way, and because they are not doing it that way, it must be a hoax!" and other types of nonsensical circular-reasoning and flawed logic.

C) If they are truly just trying to defend a position that they believe to be true, why are they not willing to have their claims cross-examined? Are they really that unskilled in debate? Everyone knows that in a courtroom the prosecutor starts off with the premise that the defendant is guilty, while the defender starts off with a presumed innocence. Then each argues from their prejudiced point-of-view. The lawyers are not seeking truth... they are trying to convince an impartial jury of their position, and it it the jury's job to find the truth. Are we not supposed to be like the JURY? Anyone who behaves like a lawyer must have some agenda other than truth, in which case we must then ask, who is paying the retainer fee?

2) Another tactic often seen is to misdirect the arguments so they focus on things that really don't matter, and are not germane to the point at hand. For example, if a particular scientist has some trumped up accusations against him, this is brought forward as proof that the original point is wrong. It is used in court also... destroy the credibility of the witness. The problem with this technique is that it is no guarantee that the witness is lying or wrong. And if you bring up that the scientist was framed or unjustly maligned, that is laughed at as ridiculous! Here, on a conspiracy site, the idea of unjust slander is laughed at!

3) Another tactic is to do smorgasbord responses, which is especially frustrating. Basically, they are doing what the MSM does... misquote or selectively quote in order to give a different perspective than what was meant. If you say "the scientist was wrong about that particular item, but then in subsequent tests, he found his error and corrected it...", the disinfo responder will just quote the first part "the scientist was wrong... he found his error...", and then they will say "See, you even admitted he was wrong!" This is just such blatant manipulation and deception!

These are just a few tactics that come to mind immediately, but there are many more that I have witnessed first hand.

My question is, WHY ARE THEY DOING IT? In one case that happened recently, there was a real attempt at trying to discuss the science behind ZPE energy systems, and there were some that just refused to discuss with intelligence. No matter what was said or presented, they kept repeating their mantras of disinfo and deflection. I had a hard time believing they were actually that stupid or thick, so my only conclusion was that they must be doing this intentionally with some malicious agenda in mind.

I fully agree that people should be able to voice their intelligent rebuttals and that intelligent skepticism is healthy and necessary to finding truth. What is NOT HELPFUL, however, and actually COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE is blind and ignorant rejection, masquerading as skepticism.

If you say "aliens exist" and I say "no they don't", it then becomes necessary for each of us to present objective evidence either for or against, if indeed any kind of progress is to be achieved. Even opinions should be informed and based on something other than pure biased conjecture, for what value does that really hold? If we are not here to learn and progress, that what is ATS really all about?

After all, what is the process for denying ignorance? Perhaps there should be some "rules of engagement" that help to foster meaningful debate and help to neutralize the disinfo "agents" and daft-brained thread derailleurs.

A) No such thing as Disinfo Agents. - That's paranoia.
B) ZPE is viewed with scepticism because NO ONE HAS EVER MADE IT WORK.
C) THERE'S no irrefutable proof of aliens. If there were most of these threads wouldn't exist. There is though hundreds of examples of people faking footage. So that people like yourself will freak out/give them attention and/or for fun. --- As this is the case people are ALWAYS gonna be very sceptical... and rightly so...
D) In the ZPE thread many of the "pro-ZPEers" regularily claimed it was real and that there was a govt coverup, which is the faithers version of your #3 (in other words all media is lying to you ergo ZPE is real)


Why do people act like this?

Well, why do so many people put their faith in serial liars then cry when someone points that out?

You got me?

reply to post by seethelight


Okay, there ya go, you provided some clear cut statements. Now, I'm going to first quote them:

A) No such thing as Disinfo Agents. - That's paranoia.
B) ZPE is viewed with scepticism because NO ONE HAS EVER MADE IT WORK.
C) THERE'S no irrefutable proof of aliens. If there were most of these threads wouldn't exist. There is though hundreds of examples of people faking footage. So that people like yourself will freak out/give them attention and/or for fun. --- As this is the case people are ALWAYS gonna be very sceptical... and rightly so...
D) In the ZPE thread many of the "pro-ZPEers" regularily claimed it was real and that there was a govt coverup, which is the faithers version of your #3 (in other words all media is lying to you ergo ZPE is real)

Now, I'm going to give a counter-argument to each one, and ask you to address my counter-argument with something other than your original assertions.

A) You say there are no disinfo agents, but I say, how do you know? First of all, a disinfo agent doesn't have to be a government agent, they can be a private disinfo agent, or work for some company, etc. The way I see it, a disinfo agent is a person who just keeps chanting their mantra, without addressing the counter-argument. Example: the disinfo agent says "there is no proof of chemtrails." I say "here are some links to entire documentaries and videos taken even by people I know in Florida who see them spraying chem-junk nearly every day." And instead of them coming back and commenting on the videos, they just repeat their mantra "you can't believe everything you see on the Internet. Chemtrails are not real." That is the behavior of what I would call a "disinfo agent", in other words an agent for disinformation... the disinformation being that there is NO credible videos of chemtrails, or credible witnesses of chemtrails on the Internet. If, on the other hand, the person watched the best one I suggested, and then suggested some other possibilities for what chemtrails could be, that at least shows a willingness to DISCUSS.

B) I don't mind someone saying "I'm skeptical of ZPE because of all the cranks and hoaxes out there", I would fully support and agree with such an honest and fair assessment. But that is not what skeptics do. They don't speak with skepticism, they come right out and say "That is patently false, a hoax, untrue, and anyone who believes in that is just plain stupid and foolish!" Also, to say that nobody has made one work does not appear true to me, based on the videos I have watched. The long set of videos by Bedini gets into depth and detail about his machines and how they work. Also, there are many people on the net who have built units from his plans, and they show how to do it in detail on the net, and they show the units running. Now, you can mistrust all of them, and claim they are all lying or mistaken, but to say that NOBODY has made it work is just not true. Following is the link of a company in Hungary that HAS made it work and is making large generating plants with it, one of which is going into Canada this year. You might say, well why isn't it on the news, but IT HAS BEEN, many times on many stations. I've seen the shows, and you can find some of them on YouTube.



C) There is no proof that aliens exist, but there does seem to be some credible evidence, and that is what we should be discussing with open minds so that we can get solid brain power on analyzing the evidence. Naysayers never accomplish anything. People like Stanton Friedman are what we could use more of... people who prove a matter out, either true or false, by digging up cold forensic evidence. Even if one can't get evidence enough to prove something, strides could be made either way to at least give something more to go on.

So, there are some responses to your single line statements. Hopefully, you will give counter-arguments to my statements that show a little more depth and effort. That would be a welcome pleasure

Would it help if everything was posted as a question? If it is not backed up with fact, or able to be sourced, would it be better, would it be addressed with more calmness and respect, if placed in the form of a question?
Or would the verbal assaults still continue? Questions are non threatening correct? Is it easier to feel offended by a question, or get angry at a question? Isnt this the type of place that answers questions? There's so much knowledge here, it's a shame to see it get consumed by fighting and anger. Maybe it's just a stupid statement on my part, but maybe everyone is so frustrated and overwhelmed with the way everything is currently that its all degenerating into threads like this.
Seems there's alot of smart people here, maybe some stuff sounds whacky, but I always try and remember that it wasnt that long ago the world was flat and anyone saying anything different wasnt talked to nicely or taken seriously either. I think there's still alot to learn about everything.

reply to post by downisreallyup

that at least shows a willingness to DISCUSS.

Great post!
Cannot say it better.
Good video also!
Well done.
Star!

Originally posted by dodadoom

Originally posted by rexusdiablos


S&F

@OP: If you're interested on collaborating on an in depth study that investigates who the shills, trolls and non-contributing skeptics are on ATS then I'm your man. Internal analytics and projection are my day jobs.

We can thereafter produce our results to the moderators and a censored version (i.e. no names disclosed) of our summits to the public (i.e. ATS).

It's not something that I'll do myself though I'll definitely delegate the process if anyones willing to collaborate. U2U me if anyone wants to partake privately. We have an opportunity to form a petition that will admonish much of the aggravation currently pervading ATS.

[edit on 19-12-2009 by rexusdiablos]

Figures.
Not only does this poster have an idea and the wherewithall to see it through, he is very willing to help!

Then not only does no one star the post(except me),
he/she gets totally ignored. Perfect.

In case you ever wondered why I picked this name.

We would rather fight each other than fix our problems.
No wonder many feel we are doomed as a species,...
without some serious help anyway.

I though only Ostriches stuck their head in the sand.
It is becoming the status quo.

Thanks for paying heed to my proposition, dodadoom. To my dismay, bar yourself, I have to date not been a recipient of one singular public or private response.

I reluctantly agree with your outlook that the majority would rather egocentrically and fruitlessly fight each other than collaborate and actually partake in definitive action.

Most members of any given online communities prefer talking to acting. It breaks my heart. I've gone from one online community to the next only to find the same level of compartmentalization. I've tried engaging others in similar projects only to find each individual participant ebb away in the exact manner as each other. At first they become overwhelmed by the workload, the email correspondence become less frequent and then they're never to be heard from again.

Intentions are great but results are only derived from action.

P.S. Isn't it apt that I'm the only member to respond to your post on this matter?

[edit on 20-12-2009 by rexusdiablos]

Thanks for the succinct and thoughtfull reply!
I am with you in your assessment.

Although to be fair, I did see another good idea posted here also.
And much to my dismay, I too fall victim to the no's.
I dare not comment on my neighbors yard if mine isnt clean,
for I did not email you as a volunteer either.....

Not to sound gay or anything,
but I think we need to show more compassion, humility and yes even love towards each other. Crazy thought huh?

I seen a post earlier that said basically,
if you cant love your enemy, at least just stfu
and let the grown ups deal with the problem then!

Originally posted by seethelight
A) No such thing as Disinfo Agents. - That's paranoia.

That's an interesting and refreshing observation, given that I myself have been repeatedly accused of being an "agent" of disinformation on ATS.

Although I usually back up my posts with links to politically-unbiased and perfectly reputable sources, there is a contingent of ATS members — and moderators, for that matter — who reject many of my posts as "disinformation," and they mount fairly vicious and ignorant attacks on my person that amount to little more than character assassination.

That's the reason I sarcastically added the descriptive "Disinformation Specialist" under my screen name. My avatar, a goofy cartoon character, exhorts "Embrace Ignorance" — which is my way of assuring you that I do not condemn those who ignorantly attack me. Rather, I embrace them.

Interestingly, since I added these whimsical jabs at my detractors, other detractors have pointed to "Disinformation Specialist" and "Embrace Ignorance" as evidence that I'm an agent of SPECTRE or THRUSH or CHAOS or other fictitious organizations of disinformation and insidious intent.

If only the real agents of ignorance and disinformation wore identifying name tags...



— Doc Velocity







[edit on 12/20/2009 by Doc Velocity]

unfortunately i dont have the proof on hand nor the time to search for it

but i believe there was a thread not too long ago that discussed the situation and shows documents from the government actually proving they have agents monitoring sites like this and actually working on sites like this to mislead or disrupt the public


simply put there has been proof the government is involved in someway here on ats

to say that is paranoia would be naive, especially with as much power as the internet has


maybe it is not as widespread as some make it out to be, but they are there, that is for sure



edited to say, small chance i am wrong, but i am almost 100 percent positive that we not only had a thread discussing said situation, but that there was also proof in form of policies

if im wrong, ill more then gladly put my foot in my mouth

[edit on 20-12-2009 by Dramey]

I know what you mean Doc.
I experience this but from the other side of the debate!

I know what bashing you are talking about.
I think you were just misunderstood at the time.
You did start saying some strange stuff though. IMO
It happens to us all. That why we need to help each other.

No one of us has all the answers.
Only by all of us working together will we find the real truth.
Also, IMO.

Sometimes we say just too much.....
sometimes we let our emotions get the better of us.
We are only human for cripes sake!
Try not to take the accusations too personal, after all they dont know you other than some words and a picture.
I dont agree with you on alot of issues but consider you a very good friend whom I respect dearly.
Alot of people are freaked out over whats happening to their world.
It takes alot of patience on all our parts sometimes!
Something I am lacking in frequently actually.....

Dramey, yes the info is out there.....

[edit on 20-12-2009 by dodadoom]

Okay, just for the sake of the discussion, let's say that ATS is riddled with these hobgoblins of disinfo. Aside from spending your time in a witch hunt, as opposed to discussing issues surrounding the NWO and UFOs and such, what else have they managed to trick you into doing?

I submit to you that IF there are indeed these creatures amongst us, spending your time arguing over who is and is not one of them is preventing you from attacking the aforementioned (and other) issues. Further, IF these agents exist, then the best course of action would be to continue analyzing the important stuff and ignoring them.

If you believe they exist, then you must surely claim to be able to recognize them by what they write. And if you can recognize disinfo, then you can just as easily discount it and move on.

Personally, I think this is an exercise in the kind of hysteric paranoia we saw in the US during the McCarthy era and before that, in the Salem Witch Trials. But you have a right to your opinions... so please do have at it if you feel it is worth your pudding.

Cheers

reply to post by HappilyEverAfter


I think your spot on. My opinion is that the biggest underlying problem on ATS is that people are unwilling to simply discuss points of view and a lot of people state beliefs as fact. It is at this point that those that disagree with another's BELIEF then start demanding proof and/or calling names (if the topic itself offends them) and/or insulting people's intelligence.

Case in point, I was in thread that posed a very intriguing idea. I personally believe the OP made the mistake of posing the idea as fact instead of as a belief. This entailed others to then demand proof and evidence (instead of just pointing out that the OP's was a belief not a fact) and when the OP continued to fail to state theirs as a belief, the thread then further descended into name calling and insulting. I stopped posting. It got to be too much to sift through the noise.

Sadly, I can't help but wonder if this wasn't the intent the entire time. To stiffle discussion on a controversial idea that could challenge the way many see the world.

I understand that one of the best things about ATS is that the standard of integrity is such that if you state something as fact, you should have proof to back it up; however, a problem is arising where it seems you can't even just discuss an idea or point of view you have without also having to provide evidence/proof for it.

Some things there simply is no proof for at the moment. Doesn't mean it's not factual. And it most certainly shouldn't mean that people shouldn't be permitted to discuss the implications if it were in fact factual (such as the existence of aliens, chemtrails, 9/11, life after death, etc).

So, I agree with the OP in that the "agents of ignorance" are stifling intriguing discussion resulting in people not being able to fully expand on their beliefs and knowledge and also so that others who may not have ever considered these ideas may never get to hear them or fully understand the implications, keeping them "in a box".

Once again, this may be the intent, but it may also be an unintended result.

Very good points!
I agree, its better to ignore them and discuss the topic.
Unfortunately sometimes it descends into something else and cannot be steered back even with the best intentions!
The important posts are ignored and the bad ones quoted untill the cows come home!
That is in itself a very good tactic!
So many legitimate threads are ruined this way, its a shame.
It seems to happen often when some serious information is posted.....hmmm.
This is itself is highly suspicious to me actually.
For instance when I bring up Operation Cloverleaf" on a chemtrail thread!
Even more suspicious is when that info gets deleted off the net very quickly thereafter.
Almost like 'they' wait to pounce.....hmmm.

We know what it is when it happens, but
maybe by pointing it out often we can help newcomers
also recognize and react (or not in this case) accordingly.
I'm all for it. Thanks!





[edit on 20-12-2009 by dodadoom]