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Communism deprives no man of the ability to appropriate the fruits of his labour. The only thing it deprives him of is the ability to enslave others by means of such appropriations.
Communism
a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
Capitalism
www.merriam-webster.com...
an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market
Socratic Questions
KARL MARX, The 18th Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte
KARL MARX, The 18th Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte
In proportion as the exploitation of one individual by another is put an end to, the exploitation of one nation by another will also be put an end to. In proportion as the antagonism between classes within the nation vanishes, the hostility of one nation to another will come to an end
1. If you lived in a communist society what do you think your contribution would be?
2. Do you think it is fair or in the best interest of most of the people to allow a system that has such a small percentage controlling the majority of the wealth? Why or why not?
3.Do you think more good is done by people acting in their own interests or in the interests of others?
4. How would you define equality?
KARL MARX, The 18th Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte
In proportion as the exploitation of one individual by another is put an end to, the exploitation of one nation by another will also be put an end to. In proportion as the antagonism between classes within the nation vanishes, the hostility of one nation to another will come to an end
]AYN RAND, "The Roots of War"
Laissez-faire capitalism is the only social system based on the recognition of individual rights and, therefore, the only system that bans force from social relationships. By the nature of its basic principles and interests, it is the only system fundamentally opposed to war.
from Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal (cited in the entry on capitalism in the Ayn Rand Lexicon online)
Now let me answer your Socratic Question because it is crucial to the debate.
"In your opinion, what makes for a superior ideology?"
A very good question, I had to ponder on this for a while. Some aspects that might be thought of as superior by some may be inferior to others so I had to think of what would benefit the majority of people. A superior ideology would lead to all being equal and treated fairly. It would unite it's people. It would absolutely not divide it's people into different classes and put them in direct competition with one another. The focus would be not on what can I do for myself, but what can I do for all of humanity. These ideas would help end serious problems like poverty and famine. They would bring about the end of war and segragation, and the people would have the power, not an elite class of opressors who make up the smallest percentage. I know this sounds like I'm hoping for a lot, but the only way any of these things are possible is if we rethink what is important to us and work together. The inferior ideology would be based on monetary gain, competition, and private ownership leading to a people that will not come together on key issues.
Question One: As you understand it, does the theory of capitalist ideology require a small oppressive class, or is that simply a characteristic of a particular historical circumstance?
Question Two: Do you agree that the ideology of capitalism is built around the central value of individual liberty?
"The liberals and conservatives and Libertarians who lament totalitarianism are phoneys and hypocrites. . . You find the same sort of hierarchy and discipline in an office or factory as you do in a prison or a monastery. . . A worker is a part-time slave. The boss says when to show up, when to leave, and what to do in the meantime. He tells you how much work to do and how fast. He is free to carry his control to humiliating extremes, regulating, if he feels like it, the clothes you wear or how often you go to the bathroom. With a few exceptions he can fire you for any reason, or no reason. He has you spied on by snitches and supervisors, he amasses a dossier on every employee. Talking back is called 'insubordination,' just as if a worker is a naughty child, and it not only gets you fired, it disqualifies you for unemployment compensation. . .The demeaning system of domination I've described rules over half the waking hours of a majority of women and the vast majority of men for decades, for most of their lifespans. For certain purposes it's not too misleading to call our system democracy or capitalism or -- better still -- industrialism, but its real names are factory fascism and office oligarchy. Anybody who says these people are 'free' is lying or stupid."
For certain purposes it's not too misleading to call our system democracy or capitalism or -- better still -- industrialism, but its real names are factory fascism and office oligarchy.
Closing Statement
Wormwood13
Wormwood wins this Debate because he displayed a better grasp of Communism than Americandingbat did of Communism.
Throughout it appeared that WW used his own words and understanding in defense of Communism while ADB required Wikipedia & Co. to make sense of Capitalism. Her self-admitted issues with Capitalism shone through.
While reading I myself had a dozen ideas of what one COULD have argued in favor of Capitalism but these actually rather common talking points were left out.
Wormwoods lines of reasoning, on the other hand, seemed to be easily drawn and layed out for every reader to understand.
Knowing ADB as a good Debater I say "better luck next time!" and congratulate wormwood on the win.
That was the hardest debate I have ever judged. I actually read through it three times because I was having a hard time deciding on which was the better argument.
At the end I had to pick AmericanDingbat. I had always leaned towards Communism as my flavor of preferred choice, but now I have a lot more to think about on this issue.
"In theory, communism is a superior ideology than capitalism.”
This was a great debate. Both fighters started off strong in their openings with good solid foundations as to their direction. I always enjoy a good opening as it sets the tone and these two did not disappoint.
Wormwood13 sure started off well in his first post or two, but it started to show that he was depending on Marx perhaps too much.
Americandingbat was able to hold off Wormwood13 very nicely, keeping things even until the closing.
At the closing a clear leader emerged and I must say it was one of the better closing arguments I have had the enjoyment to read.
Americandingbat absolutely “killed” in that closing, wrapping up the debate and managing to refute Wormwood13’s debate all in one package.
Winner americandingbat
Originally posted by wormwood13
I'll be rooting for you ding, make them suffer.