Where did CLOVIS originate??

I took this last post from one of my other threads that might have been mis- understood.

Clovis is presented primarily by association with the large, thin, and a technically near impossible basal flute.
This flute in particular, is what makes Clovis unique.
I have absolutely no problem with the evolution of projectiles from Clovis to the present in the Americas.
Bare in mind that, the basal, hinged fractured flute appears nowhere in the world except in the Americas
and in the established Clovis time frame.
It is designed and produced by a culture with brains and advanced technical skill.
These weapons were made for deep penetration through very thick skinned creatures.
In my opinion a requirement for survival during that era.
These Clovis points have been found imbedded in the bones of Mastodons and Mammoths.
Try to imagine the competition you would have back then.
Huge predators, like the numerous Bears. large Cats
that grew to maturity and attacked from trees.
The Dire Wolves that were way bigger than Timber Wolves
and hunted in packs.
You and your family are continually hunted and you can only hunt while you are awake
and not preoccupied by other life functions.
The Clovis point has been found through out the entirety of the habitable Americas.
A long and large substantiated Culture.
There unquestionably has to be a predecessor to those dynamic folks.
A tiny hand full of non-similar projectiles from all corners of the Americas do not make a viable linear transition in my opinion.
If all the pre-Clovis site dates are accurate, ( Big If ) then it would suggest that people walked and sailed into the Americas years before the Clovis folks. DNA results seem to point in this direction.
Since they were so poorly equipped. It is my opinion that they were lucky as all get out, to survive at all.
They would have perished before evolving into Clovis.
This still leaves the mystery of "Where did Clovis originate?"

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
There unquestionably has to be a predecessor to those dynamic folks.

have you heard of Solutrean technology?

Solutrean is named after the type-site of Solutré in the Mâcon district, Saône-et-Loire, eastern France, and appeared around 19,000 BCE.

the "Solutrean Hypothesis" is based upon its similarities with Clovis technology.

also:

Solutrean culture was dominant in present-day France and Spain from roughly 21,000 to 17,000 years ago. It was known for its distinctive toolmaking characterized by bifacial, pressure-flaked points. Traces of the Solutrean tool-making industry disappear completely from Europe around 15,000 years ago, when it was replaced by the less complex stone tools of the Magdalenian culture.

the more advanced tool was replaced by one with lesser complexity?

there is a gap of 1,500 years, as well, between the accepted dates of the Solutrean (ending 15,000 years ago) and Clovis (13,500 years ago) .

reply to post by queenannie38


Yes, I am aware of Solutrean. I am also lucky enough to have had access to the report of the butchering of a hippo on the flood plain of Koobi Fora in the Great Rift Valley with stone flakes 3 million years ago. I have Neanderthal blood coursing through my veins. LOL

I am a little confused about you saying the more advanced tool being replaced by one with less complexity.
???
There must be a reason for that change IMO.

Would you then cross the Atlantic and develope the most complex weapon on the planet?
Fluted Clovis technology diminished in complexity as did all the American projectiles and in a linear way.

I am a flint knapper and have delved into this phenomena for years.
In a nut shell---- Where does the first Clovis Flute Flake reside?
Does it rest In Europe, Asia, in the Atlantic or the Pacific Oceans continental or island shelves.
The knowledge of who created that first flute would be nice, WHERE it was created would be nicer.
Most artifact material is recorded by location.
The who --is left primarily up to the Anthropologists.
Thanks for your input and insight.
Actually it has made me ask myself this question---------
If Europeans and Asians had already eaten all their Mega Fauna----
Would they be creative enough to develop a new technology before conquering new continents and eating all that easy prey too?
And doing it on the doorstep of that new continent not before?
Huuummmmm!

[edit on 11-12-2009 by Donny 4 million]

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
I am a little confused about you saying the more advanced tool being replaced by one with less complexity.

well, i was just repeating what the Wikipedia article said.

it puzzles me, too

???
There must be a reason for that change IMO.

i agree
another mystery!

Magdalenian culture

perhaps these people had more of an artistic way of life (evidenced by the cave art in France) and therefore didn't pay as much attention to their hunting technology above and beyond what was sufficient.

i dunno.

Would you then cross the Atlantic and develope the most complex weapon on the planet?
Fluted Clovis technology diminished in complexity as did all the American projectiles and in a linear way.

exactly!

and why did this happen?

surely hunting mega-fauna required not so much a different weapon but rather a different method (such as ambush from above when the prey was passing below...)

If Europeans and Asians had already eaten all their Mega Fauna----
Would they be creative enough to develop a new technology before conquering new continents and eating all that easy prey too?
And doing it on the doorstep of that new continent not before?
Huuummmmm!

i have a hard time consolidating the disappearance of the mega-fauna with over-hunting by paleo-indians.

and i'm not satisfied with any of the prevailing theories of human migration...so far

what do you think?

reply to post by queenannie38


Migration is difficult to address way back 13,000 years ago. That FLUTE and all that water doesn't help.
We have records of migrations and attempted migrations into the Americas for the last 1,100 years or so.
What you can't read or challenge without a laboratory is DNA . It is always suspect to me.
It is often used in my opinion to coax popular opinion and political agenda.
In my life time I have seen the rapid decline of the African elephant. It hangs on due to it's existence through world wide intervention. Clovis is unsolved in my opinion. The vast amount of research, blood, sweat, tears and mega bucks attest to its importance .
The answer IS here (there). Let's help find it!

[edit on 11-12-2009 by Donny 4 million]