Answering Worries About Islam

Answering Worries About Islam

A half-day of work, if anything is incorrect, I apologize. May be a few videos, its just because I like watching videos rather than reading, not great but true. Also, I am no expert but I have linked to where I have found my information.

Before someone says it I am not being a 'Islamic apologist' I realize the problems in Islam, I am just offering another view.

[multiple] - means multiple videos, check youtube page.

Good day, all on Above Top Secret, I have considered making this thread for some time, I'm see the discussion of Islam on both traditional news and some sites, lacking in alternative opinions. There are HUGE problems with some people following the religion, but hearing some people say that Muslims, regardless of weather they are extreme or not should be eliminated is distressing.

Some of the views:

Anti-Muslim Sentiments Fairly Commonplace Four in ten Americans admit feeling prejudice against Muslims

"Substantial minorities of Americans admit to having negative feelings or prejudices against people of the Muslim faith, and favor using heightened security measures with Muslims as a way to help prevent terrorism. Personally knowing someone who is Muslim -- which 41% of Americans say they do -- corresponds with more favorable attitudes on these questions. These are they key findings of a July 28-30, 2006 USA Today/Gallup Poll focusing on U.S. attitudes toward Muslims living in the United States."

www.gallup.com...

Unfavorable Views of Both Jews and Muslims Increase in Europe
pewresearch.org...

Lets Begin Our Learning.


Islamic History In Europe
Starting off a documentary regarding Islamic history in Europe (by the BBC).


Response: "It does not matter if they are Muslims or not, they would have come up with those ideas anyway!"
Answer: "But if we are talking about Muslims contributing to the modern world, we must use Muslims as an example"

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Polls
Another issue seems to be the strong support of extremism in people following this religion, lets look at the results of some polls taken, not just regarding extremist, although that is included:

1. Poll: 93% of Muslims Worldwide Condemn 9/11 Attacks – 0% Approve of Attacks on Religious Grounds
"The Gallup organisation's poll of some 50,000 people in over 35 predominantly Muslim countries found that what motivated those considered "politically radicalised" was their fear of occupation by the West and the US, though most even admired and hoped for democratic principles."
www.america.gov...

2. Muslim Publics Oppose Al Qaeda's Terrorism, But Agree With Its Goal of Driving US Forces Out
A study of public opinion in predominantly Muslim countries reveals that very large majorities continue to renounce the use of attacks on civilians as a means of pursuing political goals.
www.worldpublicopinion.org...

3. Muslim Americans Exemplify Diversity, Potential
www.gallup.com...

4. Nearly 1 in 4 people worldwide is Muslim
edition.cnn.com...

5. Islamic Extremism: Common Concern for Muslim and Western Publics.
Concerns over Islamic extremism, extensive in the West even before this month's terrorist attacks in London, are shared to a considerable degree by the publics in several predominantly Muslim nations surveyed.
pewglobal.org...

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To be continued on the next post.

Quranic Interpretation
Another issue isthe interpretation of the Quran.
Before quoting, who is translating and/or do you understand Quranic Arabic? There are words that can mean many things, and this is something you may not taking into account, let me explain:

I give you, Polysemy and Polysemous, if you understand linguistic terms you will know that they are names for words that have 2 or more meanings.

"Polysemy comes from Neo-Latin polysemia, which comes from Greek polusemous [poly- (many) + sema (sign)] giving us a linguistic term, "having many meanings" or multiple meanings.
The words polysemy [puh LIS uh mee or PAWL i see" mee] and polysemous [puh LIS uh muhs or pawl" ee SEE muhs] are defined as "having or characterized by many meanings; the existence of several meanings for a single word or phrase"

www.wordinfo.info...

Here is an example of this; I can say the word "up" and that could mean:

Towards the sky
Asking someone to speak up
Asking someone to write something up
It could mean i'm locking up the house.
One word, many meaning depending on the context in which it is used.

So you must ask yourself when translating something or reading a translation, you must make sure it is correct. Its difficult, but if were to use quotes from the Quran as an example we need to make sure we are understand what is really being said.

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Pakistan
Lets talk about Pakistan, why Pakistan, it is one of the country's which holds the largest population, I believe it is the second largest Muslim country in the world although different sources show different results. Anyway I though this little documentary could help explain Pakistan, and show that it is not as backwards as some may believe:

www.youtube.com... [multiple]

Another video of the Pakistan army, and its involvement in helping the United Nations:

www.youtube.com... [multiple]

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World War 2
Here are a couple of examples of Muslims fighting against the Nazis in WW2:

www.youtube.com...
This video features a few short clips from a French movie which describes experiences of the 130,000 Algerian Muslims who fought in the French Army to help liberate Europe from Fascism in WW2. The Great Mosque of Paris was constructed in honour of Muslim Tirailleurs (sharp-shooters) who fought for France during WW1, and Algerian Muslims fought with distinction during WW2, notably during the invasion of Italy

More Videos
www.youtube.com... or
www.youtube.com... [multiple]

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Aisha
Here is another interesting video, discussing the Aisha debate that goes on today:
www.youtube.com... [multiple]


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Final Post

Human Rights

"...when we speak of human rights in Islam we really mean that
these rights have been granted by God; they have not been granted by
any king or by any legislative assembly. The rights granted by the
kings or the legislative assemblies, can also be withdrawn in the same
manner in which they are conferred. The same is the case with the
rights accepted and recognized by the dictators. They can confer them
when they please and withdraw them when they wish; and they can
openly violate them when they like. But since in Islam human rights
have been conferred by God, no legislative assembly in the world, or
any government on earth has the right or authority to make any
amendment or change in the rights conferred by God. No one has the
right to abrogate them or withdraw them. Nor are they the basic
human rights which are conferred on paper for the sake of show and
exhibition and denied in actual life when the show is over. Nor are
they like philosophical concepts which have no sanctions behind
them."

www.islam101.com...


The rights of a Muslim listed on the site (link below) were: Right to, Life, Respect, Justice, Freedom, Acquire Knowledge, Sustenance, Work, Privacy, Protection from Slander - Backbiting and Ridicule, Develop One's Aesthetic Sensibilities and Enjoy the Bounties Created by God, Leave One's Homeland Under Oppressive Conditions, "The Good Life".
www.religiousconsultation.org...


Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam
en.wikipedia.org...

Universal Islamic Declaration of Human Rights
www.alhewar.com...

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Summary

The eye see's what it wishes to see, in this thread I shine the light on the bright side of Islam, does that mean I do not acknowledge the dark? no, for that is everywhere to be seen, but what we must do is try to be as honest, and respectful when discussing issues, I don't mind if you are politically incorrect as long as you are not insulting someone and especially if you don't have the correct information.

Now, I am not taking any high ground here, its likely I could be incorrect on many things here, all I wanted to do was show another side of the coin.

Muslims are told to prey 5 times a day, give charity regularly, and be respectful. Muslims are not evil and there is nothing to fear from Islam IMO there are factions in every religion that are moderate and extreme, I am Muslim and I hate terrorism, or anyone beating women or men. I love learning, peace, family and trying to live a good life, not to 'get into heaven' but to just enjoy what I have and live in the moment.

It took me a few months to decide on putting this together (mainly through other resources) and I have finished it in about half a day, hope you enjoyed it.

Thanks for reading.

Well, admittedly, any time you demonize it's sad.However, being some one who is critical of all three of the Abrahamic religions,having read up on them, I must say that Islam is rather distressing.

To me, there is not much difference between the Koran and the Old Testament Christian Bible.Which, at least to a true spiritual seeker, is frightening.



[edit on 3-12-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, admittedly, any time you demonize it's sad.However, being some one who is critical of all three of the Abrahamic religions,having read up on them, I must say that Islam is rather distressing.

To me, there is not much difference between the Koran and the Old Testament Christian Bible.Which, at least to a true spiritual seeker, is frightening.



[edit on 3-12-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

Yes there are quite a few similarities between the two.

Religion it self is very questionable but the reason for the thread was was people saying Muslims are terrorists, or the whole religion is evil. Sure there are aspects that are questionable, like any religion, and its obvious that there is a huge extremism problem.

Although at the end of the day the religion is huge, and if there are problems we cannot simply nuke them away.

Understanding why what is happening is happening, and finding better solutions, and then taking action is what needs to happen as with most things.

Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

Having an opposing thread on Islam is good but I question the interiptation part. How many ways can you possible interpritate.

Kill the unbeliver where ever you find him.

I will say now I in no way support any of the major religions but I feel at this point in history Islam is the biggest threat to the world just as the christians where during the crusades.

Islam leaves absolutley no room for change no room for comprimise and no room for growth.

In islam you are not allowed to change or question the doctorine at all. They use this to claim that theres is a pure religion but it stops any growth or change.

Ask yourself what has the Muslim world given to humanity over the last 500 years technologicaly and spiritually speaking and the answer is nothing.

Before Islam had a true hold on the Arabs they gave us advancements in medicine, mathmatics and science.

I dont feel that christianity is any better but how many videos on the web will you find of christians cutting peoples heads off and stonning woman for adultery

Originally posted by jpmail
Having an opposing thread on Islam is good but I question the interiptation part. How many ways can you possible interpritate.

Kill the unbeliver where ever you find him.

I will say now I in no way support any of the major religions but I feel at this point in history Islam is the biggest threat to the world just as the christians where during the crusades.

To the first part about killing the unbeliever:
Again I'm kind of against quoting but you can find quote for and against anything depending on translation. The eye see's what it chooses to see.

“Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever you catch them and drive them out from whence they drove you out, for terrorism is worse than killing. But do not engage in combat with them at the sacred mosque unless they engage you in combat there. But if they combat against you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And combat them on until there is no more terrorism or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. But if they cease, don't let there be hostility except to those who practice oppression.” [Surah al-Baqarah: 190-193]

From this point on, the scope of jihad was broadened from being purely for defense against direct attack to being inclusive of resistance against those who suppress the faith and deny people the freedom to choose their religion for themselves. This came later, because it is legislated for the Muslims only when they are capable of doing so. In times of weakness, Muslims may only fight against direct attack. As for the spread of Islam, this is supposed to take place peacefully by disseminating the Message with the written and spoken word. There is no place for the use of weapons to compel people to accept Islam. Weapons can only be drawn against those who persecute and oppress others and prevent them from following their own consciences in matters of belief. The Muslims cannot just stand by while people are being denied the right to believe in Islam and their voices are being crushed.

This is the meaning of Allah’s words: “And fight them on until there is no more terrorism or oppression and there prevails a way for justice and faith in Allah.” [Surah al-Baqarah: 193]

Originally posted by jpmail
Islam leaves absolutley no room for change no room for comprimise and no room for growth.

In islam you are not allowed to change or question the doctorine at all. They use this to claim that theres is a pure religion but it stops any growth or change.

Ask yourself what has the Muslim world given to humanity over the last 500 years technologicaly and spiritually speaking and the answer is nothing.

Before Islam had a true hold on the Arabs they gave us advancements in medicine, mathmatics and science.

I dont feel that christianity is any better but how many videos on the web will you find of christians cutting peoples heads off and stonning woman for adultery

Watch the first documentary about Islam's history in Europe.




[edit on 3-12-2009 by GoodLuckCharm]

[edit on 3-12-2009 by GoodLuckCharm]

Last post unless anyone else replys, but is there anything else you want to ask, mistakes/issues that have come up, anything you want to add??

Peace out.

Before I begin, I am going to state the following:
The contributions by the Islamic world in the past were at the cutting edge, the concepts in the areas of science, math and philosophy has affected the western world, and there are those in the Islamic world are very resorceful. However, that was then and this is now.
Before 9/11 in the modern age, the most, and I was one of them, that anyone in the west ever heard of the Muslim world was coming out of the middle east and what did we see? Acts of Terror and destruction, car bombings and hostage taking, and war. But peace came and that is all good. However, when you move forward, that is all people see, not because all Muslims are bad, rather it is what is shown on the news, and stated over the radio. Maybe we have gone all PC and tried to give people the benifit of doubt, and maybe people do not understand, but here is what I see:
1) When the Islamic community any where in the world say "We condem an action" I say BS. I say it cause we call can say "We condem this or that." What, as a Westerner and a non muslim want to hear is stronger language. I am a big fan of history and to give an example is in France. There was an author, a respected man in his field and when he found an injustice he did not say, "I think or believe that this is an injustice." No he wrote and had printed in big letters: J'accuse (I accuse). There is a big difference in the language and meaning. For once I would like to here an Iman or an Islamic organization to come out and say: If you commit a terrorist act, it is not heaven you go to, Allah will not save you from gonig to the Firey depth of (Insert descriptive bad place).
2) Being a part of a society. The Islamic community in the United States are divided into 2 parts, those who try to blend in, and those who set themselves apart. It is those who set themselves apart, that tend to leave to mistrust. I am all for being religious, but taken too far is fanaticism. Where I live there are problems with the Muslim community. If a person has a dog, they are shuned, if a person is grilling pork, they raise a stink, expecting everyone to respect them, while they fail to give that respect in return. Even to the point of discrimination against anyone who is not of the Muslim faith.
3) Another issue is one that deals with the contempt on the part of the Islamic world for those of a different belief, instead of what was in the past where they would try to get along and even understand the different faiths, and finding wisdom. I, along with the rest of the world, was rather shocked when one of the worlds oldest Buddhist statues, a heritage to the people of Afganistan, were blown up. The only reason given is it was against the writings in the Koran.
4) Human Rights, the right of ever one to live in dignity and with the understanding that everyone has the right to live in peace. When the crimes are being raped or of being a homosexual, or of sexual misconduct is equal to the sentence of death, then the question must be how civilized are some parts of the Islamic world?
When the world gets beyond the concept of an eye for an eye, maybe we can start seeing the beauty of the world.

First of all thank you for posting and being open.

Ancient science was different in the way it was practiced. Science and religion at the time were not at odds with each other, compared to modern science, I think that any religious country where religion is key to holding someone in power and holding the peoples identity together will not want to explore science because it will contradict what there religion says. Although there are some in the religion who still try to push the practice of modern science and bring those nations up to speed, although I think it will take some time.


You say it yourself, not all Muslims are bad, it is those terrorists that are given the spotlight in news.

"We condemn this action" is not all that is said, people are speaking out against terrorism. Why do more Muslim leaders not speak out more aggressively against terrorism, some do .... but I agree more should.

Defeating terrorists for Muslim country can be difficult as they hide in its community's, who fear them. Its not all black and white, if we take Pakistan as an example the only reason they did not attack the terrorists, even though they disagreed with there ideas was because they wanted to use them in case the tensions with India escalated.

Just as a few groups in America do not want to get rid of extream right wing groups. For Pakistan this has come to bite them and they are doing as much as they can. Plus when America attacked Muslim country's, this gave a rise in sympathy to terrorism due to occupation, which is now waning, thankfully.

Heres a few quotes against terrorism.


US:
"Last fall, CAIR launched a national petition drive as part of a campaign by Muslims called 'Not in the Name of Islam.' To date, nearly 700,000 Muslims have signed the petition condemning terrorism committed in the name of Islam, and many newspapers have covered the petition drive. As part of the same campaign, CAIR also created and paid for public service announcements set to air on television stations nationwide....." "If all that wasn't enough, last Thursday the Fiqh Council of North America issued a fatwa, or religious ruling, against terrorism and extremism. Endorsed by more than 100 U.S. Muslim authorities, the fatwa boldly and unequivocally forbids terrorism and admonishes those who commit terrorist attacks....."

Egypt:
“Islam has declared the spilling of blood and the destruction of property as absolute prohibitions until the Day of Judgment. ... [It is] necessary to apprehend the true perpetrators of these crimes. as well as those who aid and abet them through incitement, financing or other support. ”

Saudi Arabia:
"And I repeat once again: that this act that the United states was afflicted with, with this vulgarity and barbarism, and which is even more barbaric than terrorist acts, I say that these acts are from the depths of depravity and the worst of evils."

UK:
"That killing of innocent civilians is absolutely forbidden in Islam and anyone who contemplates or commits any such act, does so against the teachings of Islam."

"I would rather live in America under Ashcroft and Bush at their worst, than in any “Islamic state” established by ignorant, intolerant and murderous punks like you and Mullah Omar at their best."

I agree that Muslims should integrate more, I think when it come to poorer community's in the west, many people form groups with people they know and this is why you see areas where blacks live, Muslims live, they separate themselves, and become more attracted to an us vs them mentality.

There are human rights rules that Muslims have.
Some go against what these laws in Muslims country's are saying.
I think these cultures need to change.

[edit on 4-12-2009 by GoodLuckCharm]

[edit on 4-12-2009 by GoodLuckCharm]

You have very conveniently missed the main concern of people in your posting. This is the total refusal of Muslims to integrate with other cultures and religions.

It is in fact the Islamic point of view that ALL others should change to integrate with them!

This is what concerns people, especially in the UK, where we have virtual enclaves of Muslims, who deem themselves unanswerable to UK law, and constantly complain with regards to established UK customs and traditions.

I constantly hear how the Muslim religion presents no threat to my way of life as an English (half Irish) man. Why then, if there are so few Muslims in the UK, must the majority of the population change their ways for a small minority?

There are countless cases all across the country of Union flags not being flown in case they cause offence. Christmas lights not being put up in case they cause offence and school Nativity plays being cancelled, once again, in case they cause offence.

The Islamist's in the UK have caused this backlash against them by their own constant whinging and complaining. They are their own engineers of how others see and judge them.

Maybe your post should be directed towards Muslims, where you could suggest how they could change their attitudes and ways?

reply to post by BillyTheCat



Well, you see, that is precisely part of the problem I have with all three of the Abrahamic religions. Islam is currently the worst.However, let us not forget the Inquisition, witch hunt and crusades.

Thank you for the reply.

"refusal of Muslims to integrate with other cultures and religions"
I said above "I agree that Muslims should integrate more" I'm not ignoring the fact that this is not happening.
But regards to integration of Muslims, where, what percentage, why? and in what way are you measuring there integration?

Lets remember the percentage of Muslims in the UK.

The vast majority of Muslims in the UK live in England and Wales: of 1,591,000 Muslims recorded at the 2001 Census, 1,536,015 were living in England and Wales,where they form 3% of the population; 42,557 were living in Scotland, forming 0.84% of the population; and 1,943 were living in Northern Ireland.

en.wikipedia.org...

I realize there is anti homosexuality, the call for sharia law, aggressive words spoken and even terrorist in this great Britain. Going forward what is the solution to this?
Simply deport those who are proven to be anti Britain, new immigrants to the country should have to take more strict tests and learn a lot more about Britain before being allowed in, sharia law should never be allowed in Britain there are Muslims that are moving away from certain country's because of the way it is used there. Fines for those who are racist or anti homosexuality. What can Muslims do about terrorism, and those that might be interested in it, first of all facts against it should be very clearly stated, speeches should be given (more), and perhaps even ridiculing the terrorists with comedy (which is a powerful tool) and promoting integration and peace. Which is being done, but the efforts need to be re-newed.


I know this is not what your talking about but lets look at some history showing Muslim connection with Britain is not recent.


Seems to be around 757-796 Anno Domini, in which King Offa of Mercia put Arabic inscription on one side of the coin, strongly suggesting relations with the Muslims although, all this suggests is that he wanted trade with the nations, even so, the connection is still there.
en.wikipedia.org...

A little on pre 20th century Islam in Britain [bbc] -
www.bbc.co.uk...
www.guardian.co.uk...

Why was there an influx of Muslims to the British isles.

The mass migration to Britain of Pakistanis (including Bangladeshis) had its origin in colonialism. For example, many soldiers who joined the British army in the war were posted to the British Isles, and some of them began to settle there.

The second important factor which contributed to migration was the construction of the Mangla Dam in Pakistan. This, in effect, displaced 100,000 people, especially the Mirpuris. [snip] others, however, looked for the sponsorship of their relatives in Britain and subsequently settled there in large numbers.

The rapid increase in demand for unskilled labour in British industries also occasioned large scale migration.

www.islamfortoday.com...

The Current Situation:

Muslim Britain is young: 800,000 people are aged under 25, the vast majority straddling two cultures. "Art, music, film and other forms of culture are as much part of the daily lives of Muslims as are politics, religion and science," The Muslim community contributes more than £31bn to the economy, and much else besides to our lives.

Muslims reject image of separate society
www.guardian.co.uk...

Let me end by saying, yes there are big problems with some that refuse to integrate. I (at the moment) don't really know enough to comment more, except I know its not the entire Muslim community but there are large percentages from what I have read of those that seem to agree with not integrating. Still looking in to it.

Peace

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
reply to post by BillyTheCat

 

Well, you see, that is precisely part of the problem I have with all three of the Abrahamic religions. Islam is currently the worst.However, let us not forget the Inquisition, witch hunt and crusades.

Yes Islam is currently the worst in people that are using it to commit acts of terror.

I'm not sure if I agree with any religion either, logically non of it makes sence, but I am on the fence. Although when it come to science, religion should just stay well away. lol.