Democracy= Communism (you only think you have a choice)

Fellow ATSers,
hope you are all well and staying abreast of all the negative developments within our world; lets us try to see the positivity- God (which ever you personally choose), gave us the insight of being able to 'see-the-screen'; many can not. Maybe thats why we all collude here at ATS, anyway.........
Whether it be the politics of the US, or any other 'Democratic Nation'- there are stark similarities.

I propose that Democracy is dead; nay, Never existed.

Democracy is a notion. It was designed to make us, the voting public believe that we actually had a choice in our countries political affairs.
Democracy has become more obvious; it represents the demands of the US government as western Superpower.......when the demands are not met, 'Jackals' are sent in to undermine a particular nations political stance and make it more favorable to US policy. If the 'Jackals' do not suceed, then WAR is the solution.
The only bug-bear this process has faced would be Che Chevez.

Democracy in Australia is Pathetic.
We have a 2 party preferred system (sound familiar?), where neither candidate makes any difference what-so-ever; after election we can all be assured of two things......
THE BANKS WILL RULE..........US POLICY WILL BE ADHERED TO; CHANGES WILL BE MADE TO BENEFIT US POLICY- Enter the NWO, forget democracy- you call a four year vote having a choice???

And ultimately, we have US politicians (and probably Australians, English) saying how wonderful the governance of China is...WTF? This is the model our wonderful 'Democratically' elected leaders aspire to!!

Democracy is a farce.

As that line from that old pink floyd song says, "Welcome to the machine". Government is inherently corrupt because it is inherently satanic. How else could the devil offer up all the kingdoms of the earth to Jesus as a temptation?

So to win the battle with corrupt government you have to first clean house with your own soul. That's where putting your faith in Jesus comes in. You can't fight the 'strong man' with your own efforts. You need something bigger and smarter than you to make any progress.

Look at the institutions and peoples that are most mocked and hated by big government and big media. Those are the ones who are probably making a difference or are destined for great things.

reply to post by SevenThunders


Government is corrupt because it is dependent upon power and power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. All political power flows from the people, regardless of the form of government established. Whether it be democracy, a constitutional republic, any dictatorship, fascism, communism, or any monarchy, that government obtained its power from the people who went into agreement, either knowingly and consciously, or tacitly and even unconsciously. The inherent political power at all times resides with the people, collectively and more importantly individually.

The importance of an individuals inherent political power lies, partially, in the fact that whether we act together as a group or alone it is always we as individuals that act. While popular uprisings are the bane of all governments, all popular uprisings began with the acts of a few individuals who dared to challenge the jurisdiction of a prevailing government official. Whether it be Eleazar ben Ya'ir against Titus, or William Wallace against Edward I, "Longshanks", or Paul Revere alerting the countryside to the invasion of British troops of 1775, these were individuals who through their own actions inspired popular uprisings.

The single greatest importance to the inherent political power belonging to individuals is that power does corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. To understand that such power as absolute power is unthinkable in governments is to understand that this is why the power is spread amongst us evenly. Any usurpation of power by corrupt politicians may or may not be blamed on satanic idolatry, blame in the end is irrelevant. There is no more point in blaming governments for attempting to seize power not theirs to seize than there is in blaming scorpions for stinging. Both act in their inherent nature.

It has always been prudent to avoid the scorpions sting and it will always be prudent to avoid granting government undeserved power. Yet, as the age old fable tells of the foolish frog that allowed the scorpion to ride upon his back while he crossed the river, scorpions will even sting those they are dependent upon for survival. So too will governments.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


The purpose behind limited government in the US constitution was the belief in the Biblical truth that all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God. Humans are inherently corrupt. That is why such power can not be entrusted in human hands and why the purpose of the constitution was to strictly limit governments power.

This is also why demagogues like Obama have expressed disappointment in how much the US constitution has limited their power. They'd prefer a soviet style dictatorship if possible.

These are the problems of the heart or the soul which ultimately limit the success of government. We have exactly the type of government we deserve - corrupt, satanic and abusive.

Just look at the standards of right and wrong among our own youth and you can see what the future holds in store. I shudder at the prospect. Though to be fair they probably have more common sense than the moral midgets that came out of the sixties and seventies.

reply to post by SevenThunders


There is nothing at all in the Constitution for the United States for America to support your imposition of religious rhetoric. While it is important that you and every individual have the right to keep and express your religious views, as I too have that right, the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment was specifically put in place to prohibit the federal government from imposing any single religious doctrine upon the people.

It is not just in the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment where this prohibition can be found but also withing the Constitution, Article VI, Section 3 that clearly states:

"no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

The very first treaty ever entered into agreement by The United States is known as the Treaty of Tripoli and its significance in this post is that it serves as a historical reference as to the religious intent of the Founders of the U.S. In that treaty it is clear stated in Article XI:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

If you had ever read the communist manifesto, you'd know:
a) True Communism does equal democracy.
b) Neither China, Russia nor any other nation have achieved communism
Another thing, there hasn't been a real democracy in a long time. What you see our leaders doing is par for the course. They are ensuring a commodity (cheap labor force) for their corporate backers.
I'm not saying Karl Marx's idea would work, but democracy is exactly what he had in mind.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Although my comment was more philosophical, than a digression on the faith of the founding fathers, the US was founded by unabashed Christian fundamentalists.

In fact by today's standards most of the founding fathers would be considered right wing christian 'extremists'. Moreover contrary to the typical communist style revisionist history the US was founded by and as a christian nation.

www.faithofourfathers.net...

Here are some quotes from the above site to enlighten you:
John Adams

“We recognize no sovereign but God, and no king but Jesus!”

In an October 13, 1789 address to the military, he said:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Patrick Henry:

“Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of the number; and indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long, and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast.”

and many many more.

reply to post by SevenThunders


Thanks for your presumption of offering enlightenment, allow me to be so presumptuous as to return the favor.

Thomas Jefferson, undeniably a Founder of the U.S. and regarded as the principal author of the Declaration of Independence as well as being the primary author or the Bill to Establishing Religious Freedom ensuring the separation of church and state in the State of Virginia (1786) was raised an Anglican but clearly was influenced by Deism. Here are some quotes from this man:

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity"

Thomas Jefferson 1782

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. "

Thomas Jefferson, also 1782

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

"My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest. The artificial structures they have built on the purest of all moral systems, for the purpose of deriving from it pence and power, revolts those who think for themselves, and who read in that system only what is really there."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Mrs. Samuel H. Smith, August, 6, 1816

"You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, June 25, 1819

"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

"May it be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all,) the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government. All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 (in the last letter he penned)

Consider now the quotes from George Washington, also like Jefferson, reluctant to publicly speak to his personal religious beliefs.

“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion”

George Washington- Treaty of Tripoli

"I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution."


-- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789

"Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience.'


-- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789

"I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country."


-- George Washington, responding to a group of clergymen who complained that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, in 1789

"If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists."


-- George Washington, letter to Tench Tilghman asking him to secure a carpenter and a bricklayer for his Mount Vernon estate, March 24, 1784

Continued...

reply to post by SevenThunders


Continuing...

"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."


-- George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792,

Now consider the words of Alexander Hamilton, and avowed Christian who was equally a lover of liberty:

"In politics, as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword. Heresies in either can rarely be cured by persecution."


Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 1, October 27, 1787

"In a free government the security for civil rights must be the same as that for religious rights. It consists in the one case in the multiplicity of interests, and in the other in the multiplicity of sects."

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 51, February 6, 1788

Now consider the words from another author of the Federalist Papers, James Madison who was as mysterious about his actual personal beliefs as Jefferson and often considered to be a Deist as well:

"Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together..."

James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."

James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr.

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

Pres. James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785

"The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state. "

James Madison, 1819, in Boston

Now consider these words from Benjamin Franklin:

"You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavour in a few words to gratify it. Here is my creed. I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His providence. That He ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render Him is doing good to His other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental principles of all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed; especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in His government of the world with any particular marks of His displeasure.

"I shall only add, respecting myself, that, having experienced the goodness of that Being in conducting me prosperously through a long life, I have no doubt of its continuance in the next, without the smallest conceit of meriting it... I confide that you will not expose me to criticism and censure by publishing any part of this communication to you. I have ever let others enjoy their religious sentiments, without reflecting on them for those that appeared to me unsupportable and even absurd. All sects here, and we have a great variety, have experienced my good will in assisting them with subscriptions for building their new places of worship; and, as I never opposed any of their doctrines, I hope to go out of the world in peace with them all."


Benjamin Franklin, letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale

Continued...

reply to post by SevenThunders


You and I could continue to quote Founders of the U.S. endlessly and to what avail? Some of those Founders were, as you put it; "unabashed Christian fundamentalists." and others were not. Religious beliefs are the province of private and personal matters and that private spiritual matter should not be imposed upon the governance of people. Let those who would rely upon their religious beliefs as guidance do so with out fear of recrimination or prohibition and let those who would use a different scale of morality do the same.

I first challenged you because of your assertion that;

"Government is inherently corrupt because it is inherently satanic. How else could the devil offer up all the kingdoms of the earth to Jesus as a temptation?

So to win the battle with corrupt government you have to first clean house with your own soul. That's where putting your faith in Jesus comes in. You can't fight the 'strong man' with your own efforts. You need something bigger and smarter than you to make any progress."

And later continued to challenge you because of your assertion;

"The purpose behind limited government in the US constitution was the belief in the Biblical truth that all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God. Humans are inherently corrupt. That is why such power can not be entrusted in human hands and why the purpose of the constitution was to strictly limit governments power."

These are your religious views and I willingly and most zealously stand beside you in your right to voice them. I however, hold with strong conviction that people are basically good and are not subject to any religious decree that would declare us necessarily falling short of the Glory of God. I have been labeled by many as being a failed Christian or mediocre at best for my beliefs and it is the right of people to hold such opinions. I do, however, continue to hold mine and will continue to hold with strong conviction that we only fall short of the Glory of God when we sin or live a life of sin.

Having come to know the teachings of Christ I am taught he lived his life without sin and this I accept with out any doubt, I have also been taught that Jesus asked of us to live our lives as he lived his and by declaring people inherently incapable of rising up to the Glory of God and living our life without sin all that is accomplished is an abdication of responsibility.

These are, in the end, my personal religious beliefs and have no bearing on the robust and necessary success of a government of the people, by the people and for the people, other than how it applies to my own actions and whatever humble inspiration it may cause to serve others. Governments are not inherently evil but are only as evil as the people who allow their government to commit the acts of evil. A dogmatic insistence that the only possible way to prevent evil governments is through a narrow and limited view of fundamental Christians only serves to further divide an all ready too divided nation.

That being said, there does seem to be an unfortunate and deliberate attack on Christians by certain individuals that compels me to align myself with those Christians regardless of the unease and difference in faith that may exist. I will continue to defend to the best of my ability the right of a fundamental Christian to hold their beliefs and act upon them so long as those actions do not cause injury to others and I will equally defend the right of any Jew, Muslim or Buddhist or any of the other multitudes of religious sects that exist, including those of agnostics and atheists to hold their beliefs and act upon them so long as they do not cause injury to others.

Finally, I would close with the asserting that there is a fundamental reason and purpose as to why our Founders acknowledged rights as being God granted or granted by our Creator, and that purpose was to place rights outside of the province of government, making clear that governments can not grant to people what has all ready been granted by a higher authority.