The problem lies with us men!

Geez this thread has turned into a train wreck full of extremists from both sides of the fence. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, whatever genitalia you have won't change that. Only a strong will,level head and good heart can overcome it, something both men and woman have. That's the truth,everything else is white noise by the my sex is better than yours club. Biologically men and woman are different(obviously) but the differences are negligible when we step back,look at the bigger picture and see what troubles we are facing in the world. A penis or vagina sure as hell can't remedy them!

[edit on 3-12-2009 by Solomons]

A couple of the "men" on this thread remind me of the videos of frothing mullahs and Imams talking about how women's hair and skin make men violent and uncontrollable, and women's bodies are a force of evil upon good upstanding men.

What they would be if they dared.

One misconception that some have is - - that strong women like weak men.

Not so. I would be so bored with a weak man. I need my equal in mental and emotional strength.

Bullies are bullies and non-gender. Anyone male or female who enjoys dominating the other is a bully.

And that has nothing to do with Feminism.

Originally posted by Aeons
I would never give a guy like you the chance at possible interpersonal engagement that could lead to reproduction by accident.

Not all that clear on what can and cannot lead to reproduction are you?

I could.

Let me guess, but you won't?

But since you provide nothing but gender bashing with claims like prostitutes are controlling miners and soldiers with their wiles to destroy the world with the overwhelming power of their vaginas and mouths I don't think you're worth it.

A) I never said any such thing.
B) yep, just like what people used to say on the playground when I questioned the claim that their mommies/daddies where cowboy astronauts who run multimillion dollar corporations and play professional sports. "I could prove it but you're not worth it"

Guys that aren't dipped in hate and dumb will recognize the truth of it. If one of them wants it they can U2U me. It'd take me a bit to track the link down again. But I have posted it before.

"I had the proof, but my dog ate it. and I wouldn't give it to you even if I did."

For you, I'll wait until your prove that somehow a group with no political, economic or military power could somehow oppress another group. I'll add in informational power, though it is really a more modern power concept a-la-Tessler. How somehow the power of the mighty promise of the ubiquitious vagina holds enough power to direct nations, without the people having them having any access to anything that power is derived from.

Considering I never said anything of the sort, I see no need to prove whatever it is you just said.

When I get that from you, then I'll give you what you could easily find yourself if you had half an interest.

[edit on 2009/12/3 by Aeons]

Uhuh, sure thing.


I do love though, how defending against slurs and mysandrist lies is considered hate. Rather Orwellian.

[edit on 3-12-2009 by Doglord]

Originally posted by Aeons
Here is one. That daily interaction with your children makes you a definer of culture. That there is power in being a teacher of children. One that men have culturally been out of touch with for a long time.

But there's plenty of male roles models and figureheads and fathers who interact with children on a daily basis. I don't think that's a skill men need to learn.

No more so than any new parent or adult who has not interacted with children before.

But I don't have kids and I never want any. So that's a skill I could care less about. I don't even like kids.

WHat else you got?

Originally posted by Annee
Why do I need emotion to be interested in this thread? That's presumptuous. Ever occur to you that equality in responsibility touches many areas? Including economic - child raising - education - respect for intelligence - etc.

Often I sign up on blogs using a man's name. I am treated differently. Using a man's name I am treated with intelligent respect. If I say the same thing using a woman's name - - it is often dismissed. There is a double standard.
--------------------

Emotion plays a part in every aspect of life, to deny it, is not to be human. Perhaps you are a disguised Vulcan?

(Did I just use a label, oops.) And yes, I am a presumptuous human.

Why do you perceive that I and others treat you differently since you are a woman. For me, there is no double standard. Except what you perceive into it. You are labeling us by your definitions, And I disagree to this.

Originally posted by noonebutme

But there's plenty of male roles models and figureheads and fathers who interact with children on a daily basis. I don't think that's a skill men need to learn.

But I don't have kids and I never want any. So that's a skill I could care less about. I don't even like kids.

You just showed you have no children. And you dare to speak about fatherhood. You're not Dr Spock per chance?

I am a Father, and no, Fatherhood is not something that comes Natural, it is learned. Society doesn't give you a baby and state, pretend you are a "father" to it. Instead we males play with dump trucks, army men, and so other perceived "manly" stuff. And any man that plays "Daddy" to a object is perceived to be a "sissy". Girls play "mommy and occupations", Boys mostly play "occupations".

My Father taught me to work for a living, and how to protect the family. He did not do dishes, or other activities perceived as woman's work. My experience with so called woman roles, came from other sources. Mostly from the Head strong woman in the family, then I married a head strong woman. And yes, I cook, clean dishes, etc. Or she gives me that look, and most husbands Know where it goes from there.

Originally posted by Aeons
A couple of the "men" on this thread remind me of the videos of frothing mullahs and Imams talking about how women's hair and skin make men violent and uncontrollable, and women's bodies are a force of evil upon good upstanding men.

What they would be if they dared.

huh??? I though If men had their way, woman would be bare foot, pregnant, and naked at all times.

Personally, I would love to wear a burka, and have woman protect me from some of the psycho woman at my work place. I get tired of some woman who think of me as some sex toy for their dark twisted fantasies. And the ever present lewd looks\comments from the "Gay" men at my work place. I have been flashed, mooned, attempted fondled by both men and woman. And I need woman to protect me from other women, and gay men to protect me from other gay men. If I defend myself directly, I will either get labeled on "sexual harassment" or labeled a "homophobe". Both which have happened in the past, and I have about lost, and have resigned from my job in the distant past because of this.

It would be nice to go to work, do my job, and not have something sexual brought up in every other conversation. I'd rather talk about politics, philosophy or religion. Sex is something I share with my wife only, I don't not feel the need to share it with any body else.

Since I know aeon will never provide her mythical sources, here are some article which deal with the truth.

findarticles.com...

For example, a Stanford study of 1,000 divorced couples selected at random found that divorcing mothers were awarded sole custody four times as often as divorcing fathers in contested custody cases. A study of all divorce-custody decrees in Arlington County, Va., during an 18-month period found that no father was given sole or even joint custody unless the mother agreed to it. According to Frank Bishop, the former director of the Virginia Division of Child Support Enforcement, almost 95 percent of custody cases in Virginia were won by mothers.

An Ohio study published in Family Advocate found that fathers seeking sole custody obtain it in less than 10 percent of cases, and a Utah study conducted over 23 years found similar results. According to the 2000 Census Bureau report, mothers constitute 85 percent of all custodial parents.

Also

As a result of this view on custody for fathers and mothers, moms are still awarded custody in seventy percent of all child custody cases. Joint custody for fathers and mothers is awarded about twenty percent of the time. Family law statistics show that sole custody for fathers is awarded less than ten percent of the time. Statistics from 1991 indicate that forty percent of all child custody cases allowed no custody for fathers, barring them from both visitation and access rights.

www.divorce-lawyer-source.com...

When parents contest custody, courts give primary physical custody to moms 90% of the time.

Lagging Behind the Times: Parenthood, Custody and Gender Bias in the Family Courts
www.ncfm.org... Pdf file

Most divorced and separated dads want to nurture their children, but courts often reduce them to “visitors” and do not even enforce “visitation.” So-called “deadbeat dads” are usually dead-broke or dead-bolted from their kids’ lives by biased court orders or moms who impede access. Over 80% of divorced or separated dads who have jobs and access to their kids pay their support in full. Nonetheless, our government spends hundreds of dollars to enforce monetary support for each dollar it spends to enforce access.

www.amazon.com...

Other interesting links
www.openmarket.org...
www.wisconsinfathers.org...







[edit on 4-12-2009 by Doglord]

reply to post by msnevil


Well you must be blessed with fantastic good looks.....but thats not the point I know. Perhaps you can assert yourself in all cases my stating that you feel very uncomfortable with the conversation you are currently involved in and that you are a very private person when it comes down to that subject. You have a right to assert that.

If someone handles you, you can say that you find it offensive, and if they do it again, you would like to discuss this with one of the managers.

Tricky I know. But, sometimes you have to be yourself in life. If other people take offense to that fact that they have upset YOU. Then that is there issue. If they then act on that in some negative way, then I would say your hand is forced to take some kind of legal action.

Originally posted by msnevil

Personally, I would love to wear a burka, and have woman protect me from some of the psycho woman at my work place. I get tired of some woman who think of me as some sex toy for their dark twisted fantasies. And the ever present lewd looks\comments from the "Gay" men at my work place. I have been flashed, mooned, attempted fondled by both men and woman. And I need woman to protect me from other women, and gay men to protect me from other gay men. If I defend myself directly, I will either get labeled on "sexual harassment" or labeled a "homophobe". Both which have happened in the past, and I have about lost, and have resigned from my job in the distant past because of this.

It would be nice to go to work, do my job, and not have something sexual brought up in every other conversation. I'd rather talk about politics, philosophy or religion. Sex is something I share with my wife only, I don't not feel the need to share it with any body else.

Dude - - what messages are you sending?

If it is not just in your mind - - you are sending out messages. People are responding to what YOU are putting out.

I know. What can I say - - - sometimes I like to practice my "energy".

But I also know how to turn it off.

Originally posted by msnevil

Originally posted by Annee
Why do I need emotion to be interested in this thread? That's presumptuous. Ever occur to you that equality in responsibility touches many areas? Including economic - child raising - education - respect for intelligence - etc.

Often I sign up on blogs using a man's name. I am treated differently. Using a man's name I am treated with intelligent respect. If I say the same thing using a woman's name - - it is often dismissed. There is a double standard.
--------------------

Emotion plays a part in every aspect of life, to deny it, is not to be human. Perhaps you are a disguised Vulcan?

(Did I just use a label, oops.) And yes, I am a presumptuous human.

Why do you perceive that I and others treat you differently since you are a woman. For me, there is no double standard. Except what you perceive into it. You are labeling us by your definitions, And I disagree to this.

Of course emotions are part of life.

What has that got to do with logical and objective board discussion?

Where did I label anything? I experimented over the last 10 years how I am perceived in board discussions as a male and as a female. Reporting my findings is fact. (of course there is always some objectivity as I am human).

You keep trying to make this more then it is.

As a woman, i want to be protected an all encompassed... Strong, reassuring arms around me, being lead by my love who i respect....

Respect goes both ways; he has to love people as i do..

Do you love your mate who has fallen on hard times? Can the home be a refuge for those who need a leg up? Or are you a false friend? Your commitment questioned? Not a friend at all but a chancer....


I love my man, who is a stupidly hot Auzzie guy, and even though he steals my ATS account, which make me look like an idiot, im stopping that right now.. If he dont like that??? There are pleny who would!!

x

Originally posted by Selahobed
As a woman, i want to be protected an all encompassed... Strong, reassuring arms around me, being lead by my love who i respect....

Respect goes both ways; he has to love people as i do..

Love your post.

I think everyone has vulnerable moments and wants a strong loving partner to lean on and get support from during tough times.

I'm married to a 6' red-headed solid on the ground man of Swedish heritage - - - who is 21 years younger then me. We just celebrated our 20th wedding anniversary.

LOL - when I first met him he was about as "red-neck" as you can get. He had a long bushy red beard - was wearing jeans - a plaid shirt - cowboy boots and hat. What a sight LOL

He has evolved and is now a computer tech specialist and department manager. The cowboy hats and boots are somewhere in the back of the closet. I did not force him to change. I did recognize his intelligence and encouraged him to use it. His computer interests started when he was about 10.

It is a total misconception that strong minded independent women are attracted to weak men.

Anyone who wants to bully and dominate another person - - is pure and simple a bully and it has nothing to do with gender. It generally has more to do with insecurity.

Originally posted by Annee


Dude - - what messages are you sending?

Maybe the same ones women who are raped send out? You know, the ones that tell rapists "shes asking for it"?

You know, the ones that say "no means yes"

Originally posted by msnevil
You just showed you have no children. And you dare to speak about fatherhood.

You're not Dr Spock per chance?

No, I never watched Star Trek.

And yes, I dare to speak about fatherhood - why not? What I said before refers to my observations of friends and families who have children as well as people in the society around me.

My Father taught me to work for a living, and how to protect the family. He did not do dishes, or other activities perceived as woman's work. My experience with so called woman roles, came from other sources. Mostly from the Head strong woman in the family, then I married a head strong woman. And yes, I cook, clean dishes, etc. Or she gives me that look, and most husbands Know where it goes from there.

Well, my father was a drunk and quite useless. So I learned little if anything from him, apart from how not to be a father. And I'm pretty good with my gf's two kids. I talk to them like I do my adult friends and don't speak down to them, I'm firm while understanding and above all, fair. I'm good, if I do say so myself - and I never learned that from my father.

But this concept of doing dishes, cooking and cleaning has never once entered my mind as "woman's work". That's ridiculous! It's "survival" work, in my opinion. I've always cooked for myself, cleaned up after myself, cleaned my abode, ironed my clothes (when needed!) and so on.

The idea that if me and my girlfriend moved in together, that she would do that for me seems almost disempowering. For me, that is.

I pride myself on being independent and self-sufficient. I couldn't imagine someone doing those things for me. I'd be insulted, I think. Just my opinion.

[edit on 4-12-2009 by noonebutme]

Originally posted by Doglord

Originally posted by Annee


Dude - - what messages are you sending?

Maybe the same ones women who are raped send out? You know, the ones that tell rapists "shes asking for it"?

You know, the ones that say "no means yes"

Oh - I so expected that response.

Thanks for not disappointing.












[edit on 4-12-2009 by Annee]

Reply to Aeons:
(You who say I lie and hate women, "darling", and then make unproven statements):
"The rates of domestic violence in lesbian relationships is less than the average. In male homosexual relationships, it is greater.
We're all shocked right?"

No we're not shocked, because your claim is just plain wrong. I'm gay myself and therefore have no interest in peddling falsehoods. The rate of violence is slightly higher in lesbian relationships than hetero, and significantly higher than those in gay male relationships. The following is a typical finding:

"General results indicate that 47.5% of lesbians and 29.7% of gays have been victimized by a same-sex partner. Further, lesbians reported an overall perpetration rate of 38% compared to 21.8% for gay men. Other findings were as follows: (1) lesbians were more likely to be classified as victims and perpetrators of violence than gay men; (2) lesbians were more likely to report pushing or being pushed than gay men; (3) lesbians reported experiencing a greater number of different victimization and perpetration tactics than gay men; and finally, (4) when items were weighted to create an indicator of severity, no significant differences between lesbians and gay men were found.

PMID: 9403987, UI: 98067773


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Summary: Feminist theories of patriarchy and DV used for control are misguided and wrong.]

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Search criteria: Lesbian & Domestic violence

Violence Vict 1994 Summer;9(2):167-82

Patriarchy and wife assault: the ecological fallacy.

Dutton DG

Department of Psychology, University of British Columbia."

(fathersforlife.org... see also www.musc.edu...)

What is worse is that homophobia makes getting help more difficult for abused lesbian partners, and ironically (some would say typically) the butch bread-winner is more likely to be the victim of assault by a fem partner.
Women should get real and honest and plead with their gender to stop the violence. They should also stop finding violent men attractive and playing dangerous games. My heart does go out to really poor and victimized women. The third-world/immigrant woman freed white women from domestic responsibility, by becoming maids and child-minders for the white career woman, often at the expense of the poor woman's family for little pay. Please privileged women: stop the exploitation and violence. It's not worth it.

[edit on 5-12-2009 by halfoldman]

I firstly stated that misogyny and historical Western sexism was digusting. I do feel we are at a stage where we can take the debate further, especially because Western women do have choices and laws in their favour. Why anyone (male, female, gay, hetero) stays in abusive relationships is perhaps a psychological issue.
I'm not saying that men in SA mines or prostitution is desirable. It is just that prostitution is moralized as a "no-choice" situation in all cases. For both genders deadly and unpleasant jobs are really a matter of do or starve, and not a choice. I merely want to shift the focus a bit on the male experience, and many women in labor histiography would agree it is also unacceptable exploitation. I'm thinking especially of the South African situation (which is much different from the social security states in Europe), where the mining shanty towns are a main site of HIV infection. The fact is both genders in such communities care lttle for their immediate future, and the idea that prostitution is worse (and should thus be criminilized) than men's work is challenged in books by eg. Elisabeth Pisani (see "The Wisdom of Whores). Far from not allowing women to work, women are uplifted by specific programs and I see men being left behind, which increases the incidence of rape and "revenge crimes" (see Helen Epstein: "The Invisible Cure").
Particularly African society comes from a very set history of patriarchy, and whether Western feminism is even applicable here is a debate and thread of it's own.
[edit on 5-12-2009 by halfoldman]

[edit on 5-12-2009 by halfoldman]

reply to post by noonebutme


noonebutme said
"But please provide a list of the attributes, skills and qualities that men can (should?) learn from women."

How about these?

www.psychologytoday.com...

www.smartplanet.com...

www.aslangroup.net...



[edit on 5-12-2009 by rusethorcain]