Don't be fooled by ATS' professional debunkers

reply to post by NIcon

While a small number of OLD, ABANDONED (emphasis mine) chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdad's desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered.

I've always thought the ISG's declaration was rather amusing in the face of the weapons we found and the bunkers found at the base near Karbala.

reply to post by NIcon


Not exactly sure about your point with this post. Other than an attempt by you to compare the United States to Saddam's Iraq. Which is comparing apples to oranges.

reply to post by Swampfox46_1999

No, it wasn't directed specifically to the United States but to the fact there's 182 countries in all, the US is just one of them. I didn't quote all that concerned me in this article but here's another point from the article about my good ole US of A:

"Following World War II, the United States alone dropped 100,000 tons of chemical agents throughout the world, Bennett said in an interview. The nation was an "equal-opportunity dumper," he quipped. The Army dropped containers along the U.S. East and West coasts, the Baltic and North Seas, and the Japan Sea, among other locales.

On U.S. soil, non-stockpile materiel has been found in 42 states, at 1,200 sites and 153 locations, Bennett added, and the numbers keep going up. "The scope of the problem is not fully quantified," he said.

Because these weapons are hidden in many unknown places, they are sometimes found purely by accident. Unassuming civilians, such as farmers plowing their fields or children playing in the park, have uncovered them.

A group of Washington, D.C. construction workers dug up chemical weapons while building an apartment complex in an upscale neighborhood, Bennett said."

That does not sound responsible at all of the US. But who could have know that this stuff could get loose, get lost, get misappropriated, be given to whackos in the forseeable future?

So yes I will compare the United States with Iraq, just for the simple fact that we are/were involved with chemical weapons at all and we don't really seem concerned with our own. I hold the US in contempt for this, along with Iraq and 181 other countries with dealing in this stuff at all. So I'm thinking maybe this "coalition of the willing" should forceably go into these places and clean them up, rather than giving an 11 year extension to a 10 year original deadline which was all ready extended 5 years.

Swampy conveniently forgets where Saddam got his "weapons of mass destruction" that were never found:

How Did Iraq Get Its Weapons? We Sold Them
by Neil Mackay and Felicity Arbuthnot
The Sunday Herald (Scotland)

THE US and Britain sold Saddam Hussein the technology and materials Iraq needed to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons of mass destruction.

Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.

Classified US Defense Department documents also seen by the Sunday Herald show that Britain sold Iraq the drug pralidoxine, an antidote to nerve gas, in March 1992, after the end of the Gulf war. Pralidoxine can be reverse engineered to create nerve gas.

The Senate committee's reports on 'US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq', undertaken in 1992 in the wake of the Gulf war, give the date and destination of all US exports. The reports show, for example, that on May 2, 1986, two batches of bacillus anthracis -- the micro-organism that causes anthrax -- were shipped to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, along with two batches of the bacterium clostridium botulinum, the agent that causes deadly botulism poisoning.

One batch each of salmonella and E coli were shipped to the Iraqi State Company for Drug Industries on August 31, 1987. Other shipments went from the US to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission on July 11, 1988; the Department of Biology at the University of Basrah in November 1989; the Department of Microbiology at Baghdad University in June 1985; the Ministry of Health in April 1985 and Officers' City, a military complex in Baghdad, in March and April 1986.

The shipments to Iraq went on even after Saddam Hussein ordered the gassing of the Kurdish town of Halabja, in which at least 5000 men, women and children died. The atrocity, which shocked the world, took place in March 1988, but a month later the components and materials of weapons of mass destruction were continuing to arrive in Baghdad from the US.

The Senate report also makes clear that: 'The United States provided the government of Iraq with 'dual use' licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programs.'

This assistance, according to the report, included 'chemical warfare-agent precursors, chemical warfare-agent production facility plans and technical drawings, chemical warfare filling equipment, biological warfare-related materials, missile fabrication equipment and missile system guidance equipment'.

Donald Riegle, then chairman of the committee, said: 'UN inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs.'

Riegle added that, between January 1985 and August 1990, the 'executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record'.

It is thought the information contained in the Senate committee reports is likely to make up much of the 'evidence of proof' that Bush and Blair will reveal in the coming days to justify the US and Britain going to war with Iraq. It is unlikely, however, that the two leaders will admit it was the Western powers that armed Saddam with these weapons of mass destruction.

However, Bush and Blair will also have to prove that Saddam still has chemical, biological and nuclear capabilities. This looks like a difficult case to clinch in view of the fact that Scott Ritter, the UN's former chief weapons inspector in Iraq, says the United Nations destroyed most of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and doubts that Saddam could have rebuilt his stocks by now.

According to Ritter, between 90% and 95% of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction were des troyed by the UN. He believes the remainder were probably used or destroyed during 'the ravages of the Gulf War'.

Ritter has described himself as a 'card-carrying Republican' who voted for George W Bush. Nevertheless, he has called the president a 'liar' over his claims that Saddam Hussein is a threat to America.

Ritter has also alleged that the manufacture of chemical and biological weapons emits certain gases, which would have been detected by satellite. 'We have seen none of this,' he insists. 'If Iraq was producing weapons today, we would have definitive proof.'

He also dismisses claims that Iraq may have a nuclear weapons capacity or be on the verge of attaining one, saying that gamma-particle atomic radiation from the radioactive materials in the warheads would also have been detected by western surveillance.

The UN's former co-ordinator in Iraq and former UN under-secretary general, Count Hans von Sponeck, has also told the Sunday Herald that he believes the West is lying about Iraq's weapons program.

Von Sponeck visited the Al-Dora and Faluja factories near Baghdad in 1999 after they were 'comprehensively trashed' on the orders of UN inspectors, on the grounds that they were suspected of being chemical weapons plants. He returned to the site late in July this year, with a German TV crew, and said both plants were still wrecked.

'We filmed the evidence of the dishonesty of the claims that they were producing chemical and biological weapons,' von Sponeck has told the Sunday Herald. 'They are indeed in the same destroyed state which we witnessed in 1999. There was no trace of any resumed activity at all.'

©2002 smg sunday newspapers ltd

Keep believing in your illegal and immoral wars, Swampy. May Uncle Sam compensate you well.

Swampy, did you catch this paragraph?

The shipments to Iraq went on even after Saddam Hussein ordered the gassing of the Kurdish town of Halabja, in which at least 5000 men, women and children died. The atrocity, which shocked the world, took place in March 1988, but a month later the components and materials of weapons of mass destruction were continuing to arrive in Baghdad from the US.

The government story has to be defended.
If all it takes is internet texting what cost could that be compared
to an official state dinner.
You might say is that all there is to a turkey dinner.

Make war and prosper is the operating procedure for decades.
With the know how and small investment brings in millions.

Other ways are financial scams that the government pays off.
Madoff got the boot from NASDAC and he gave them the boot back.

No clue to how its all done, try and figure UFOs, ETs and Tesla.
Juggle that into how conspiracies are done.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
reply to post by Lillydale

 

Now, about 9/11. To this DAY, certain intelligence agencies (non-U.S.) claim that Mohammed Atta was meeting with Iraqi intelligence. The truth movement ignores this, and goes with the CIA line that the hijackers never met with Iraqi government officials. The same CIA that the truthers believe planned and carried out the attacks......

Um yeah see the thing is...the reason people believe the CIA line is because ALL EVIDENCE HAS POINTED TO THAT BEING THE CASE. Did you actually find some proof that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11? You need to get it to the government fast. It is nice to cling to this little bit of curious hearsay but unfortunately, your government has already admitted that they have NO LINK WHATSOEVER.

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by impressme
reply to post by Swampfox46_1999

There was no weapon of mass destruction found period. You are still peddling your disinformation to anyone that pays you any attention.

you are the one peddling crap once again

www.defenselink.mil...

"
Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria, Official Says

By Samantha L. Quigley
American Forces Press Service
WASHINGTON, June 29, 2006 – The 500 munitions discovered throughout Iraq since 2003 and discussed in a National Ground Intelligence Center report meet the criteria of weapons of mass destruction, the center's commander said here today.

"These are chemical weapons as defined under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and yes ... they do constitute weapons of mass destruction," Army Col. John Chu told the House Armed Services Committee.

The munitions found contain sarin and mustard gases, Army Lt. Gen. Michael D. Maples, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, "

No. The crap is clearly coming from you. There is a reason that these supposed weapons were never actually considered a threat to anyone.

Tell me something, do you know how old these weapons were?

Do you know how effective they actually were?

Basically you are saying he did have WMDs even though they would not do mass destruction and could barely be used as a weapon. Desperate much?

Latest Update: Pentagon official further confirms munitions can "not be fired as designed." Earlier update: Pentagon says Iraq's 'WMDS' are too old to use.

But hey, who is the Pentagon to decide if these weapons are still weapons. Some people on a UFO forum say there were still weapons so that makes it ok that my friends died in the desert.


The links were bad, i need to find the correct ones, unless someone can just prove me wrong in the meantime. I would accept that.

and...

While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible Indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdad’s desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered.

The chief weapons inspector, Charles Duelfer, has now issued a comprehensive report that confirms the earlier conclusion of David Kay that Iraq did not have the weapons that our intelligence believed were there.

[edit on 12/4/09 by Lillydale]

I am going to start starring the debunker flunkies,
if you all don't get back on topic.

reply to post by Lillydale

Tell me something, do you know how old these weapons were?

Thats what people like you will never understand. It does not matter if they were five days old for fifteen years old. Saddam invaded Kuwait and got his butt kicked by the coalition forces, one of the items on the cease fire was to dispose of all chem/bio weapons and all chemicals/equipment necessary to make more. They were supposed to be GONE, as were all the chemicals, warheads, suits and mixing equipment that we found in the bunker in Karbala. But they werent.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
reply to post by Lillydale

 

Tell me something, do you know how old these weapons were?

Thats what people like you will never understand. It does not matter if they were five days old for fifteen years old. Saddam invaded Kuwait and got his butt kicked by the coalition forces, one of the items on the cease fire was to dispose of all chem/bio weapons and all chemicals/equipment necessary to make more. They were supposed to be GONE, as were all the chemicals, warheads, suits and mixing equipment that we found in the bunker in Karbala. But they werent.

Star for you swampy!
I will never understand this bunch of bunk.

reply to post by Lillydale

Um yeah see the thing is...the reason people believe the CIA line is because ALL EVIDENCE HAS POINTED TO THAT BEING THE CASE.

Umm, no its because the evidence from our Allies was denied. Accepting that our allies were right, would be even MORE egg on the faces of our government.

reply to post by Lillydale


No WMD's In Iraq?
By Douglas Hanson
April 7, 2004

One of the reported incidents occurred near Karbala where there appeared to be a very large “agricultural supply” area of 55-gallon drums of pesticide. In addition, there was also a camouflaged bunker complex full of these drums that some people entered with unpleasant results. More than a dozen soldiers, a Knight-Ridder reporter, a CNN cameraman, and two Iraqi POWs came down with symptoms consistent with exposure to nerve agent. A full day of tests on the drums resulted in one positive for nerve agent, and then one resulted in a negative. Later, an Army Fox NBC [nuclear, biological, chemical] Recon Vehicle confirmed the existence of Sarin. An officer from the 63d Chemical Company thought there might well be chemical weapons at the site.

But later ISG tests resulted in a proclamation of negative, end of story, nothing to see here, etc., and the earlier findings and injuries dissolved into non-existence. Left unexplained is the small matter of the obvious pains taken to disguise the cache of ostensibly legitimate pesticides. One wonders about the advantage an agricultural commodities business gains by securing drums of pesticide in camouflaged bunkers six feet underground. The “agricultural site” was also co-located with a military ammunition dump, evidently nothing more than a coincidence in the eyes of the ISG.

Another find occurred around the northern Iraqi town of Bai’ji, where elements of the 4th Infantry Division (Mech) discovered 55-gallon drums of a substance that mass spectrometer testing confirmed was cyclosarin and an unspecified blister agent. A mobile laboratory was also found nearby that could have been used to mix chemicals at the site. And only yards away, surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles, as well as gas masks were found. Of course, later tests by the experts revealed that these were only the ubiquitous pesticides that everybody was turning up. It seems that Iraqi soldiers were obsessed with keeping their ammo dumps insect-free, according to the reading of the evidence now enshrined by the conventional wisdom that “no WMD stockpiles have been discovered.”

www.mail-archive.com...@erols.com/msg00282.html

Douglas Hanson was a US Army cavalry reconnaissance officer for 20 years, and is a Gulf War I combat veteran. He was an Atomic Demolitions Munitions (ADM) Security Officer, and a Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical Defense Officer. As a civilian analyst, he has worked on stability and support operations in Bosnia, and was initially an operations officer in the operations/intelligence cell of the Requirements Coordination Office of the CPA in Baghdad. He was later assigned as the Chief of Staff of the Ministry of Science and Technology.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999

It's called "radio waves" or even "remote control."

Great, now explain the lack of receivers and the associated descrambling gear you would need to ensure your charges did not go off from a stray signal in the RF hell of Manhatten.

You just demonstrated that your knowledge of electronics is 20 or 30 years old.

Ever heard of a computer chip? Do you know what a circuit designed to receive an encrypted code to send an "on" signal to an explosive charge of some sort would look like, when that's ALL it has to do? It sounds like you're actually saying they would need EQUIPMENT to do this, which is hilarious. If you could fit the charge itself somewhere in the building, you can fit such an electronic device on it easily.

Or did you not realize that short of a thermonuclear device, bombs leave evidence of their detonators and associated gear.

Prove it.

You "debunkers" can't even distinguish a single individual from a "truth movement," so I hardly expect you to be very discriminating when it comes to other blanket statements you make, regarding technology or whatever else. You just pull things out of your ass and hope they fly without a second thought.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Prove it.

Dude, how do you think the FBI, etc, track down bombers? Bombs leave evidence of their detonators, etc. Not all of it is destroyed in the explosion.

With all of these theories going around, I have a couple of questions:

1. If it was some sort of device that was detonated inside the buildings, how and when was it installed, and what sort of compound was used?

And sorry, I don't believe it was an army of George Bush clones, fastroping down the sides of the building with backpack nukes or black hole devices.

2. Everyone claims to hear people on the ground telling them to "pull it" and whatnot. Don't you think that with some sort of top secret, classified, fully funded operation like this, they'd duff up a few bucks and get communications that were secure?

[edit on 4-12-2009 by jerico65]

reply to post by Swampfox46_1999

My last post about WMD in Iraq:

www.cia.gov...
Interesting quote:
"WMD Leftovers. There continue to be reports of WMD in Iraq. ISG has found that such reports are usually scams or misidentification of materials or activities. A very limited number of cases involved the discovery of old chemical munitions produced before 1990. These types of reports (particularly scams) will likely continue for some time and local authorities will have to judge which merit further investigation."


www.cia.gov...

Interesting quotes from page 19 of 84:
"Iraqis seeking rewards have added toxic chemicals to unfilled pre-1991 chemical munitions to fool Coalition Forces into believing that they had found CW munitions."


"Polish Forces recovered 41 Sakr-18 rockets in June and July 2004. Of the rockets tested one contained residual sarin, five contained petroleum and a pesticide, and the remainders were empty. ISG believes that the Iraqis who provided the rockets added the pesticide BECAUSE WE HAVE NO PREVIOUS REPORTING INDICATING THAT IRAQ WEAPONIZED PESTICIDES."

Edited to add: the all caps in the last quote was my doing.....


[edit on 4-12-2009 by NIcon]

I dont mind sceptics they bring alot into discusion but these so called debunkers are like robots they takeover thread and just slam for 50 pages ridiculing and derailing w/o any or close to non info.

I stoped reading 911 forum just becose of these people
not that i need convincing to belive that 911 need to be reinvestigated (but lets not derail)

i mentioned that specific forum becose there i spoted most of such people at first baiting with some thread like "explain to me how it was inside job" (thats just example)

Originally posted by jerico65
Dude, how do you think the FBI, etc, track down bombers? Bombs leave evidence of their detonators, etc. Not all of it is destroyed in the explosion.

You mean how do they figure out the composition of most common explosives?

Figuring out the composition of what just blew up isn't how investigators figure out where their guy is.


Anyway, nobody even did such testing at the WTC from what I have read. NIST never did it, and FEMA never did it, and I don't know of anyone else who did. Care to show me who carried out such an analysis of the debris?

Originally posted by bsbray11
You mean how do they figure out the composition of most common explosives?

Figuring out the composition of what just blew up isn't how investigators figure out where their guy is.

Nope. The question was about bomb parts left behind from an attack. There are parts that aren't destroyed, and the investigators can use them to track down who set it off.