If FL 77 never hit?

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999

Another personal insult? Tsk tsk.

Yet the very post before:

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
I am still waiting for a t(w)oofer to answer the question...

Pretty sure ATS mods are counting that as an insult now. So I guess if you are the first to use an insult, that's what you can expect in reutrn?

Rew

reply to post by Rewey


Geez...

Okay first and foremost, anyone who's feelings were hurt by my use of the pet name "toofer" I apologize.

To the individual who called me on this

You might want to pay some more attention to certain posters who invariably jump into threads Ive posted on and start spewing their insults towards me. I have no problems keeping things civil, however, you might want to caution other posters as well

reply to post by SeeingBlue

I've already seen where they are still using the same planes reported crashing according to the VIN numbers.

Sorry, but if your "sources' are talking about "VIN numbers" in reference to an airplane, then they aren't very good "sources"!!!

Thanks for the laugh, though....

If my family members were on a plane "that went down" I, like 99.9% of the world, would make my way immediately to the airport.....it seems that this is just what happens...

you go to the airport....

Most people reading this will be able to picture distraught family members stood at airports around the world following a crash, inconsolable with grief...

Like this...



Or this...



Or this Swampfox??




The total lack of family members at airports on 9/11 is, in my opinion, yet another straw that will, hopefully, break the camels back....

For Swamp to state... "I am still waiting for a toofer to answer the question on why a family would waste time to go to the airport to pick up relatives from a flight that the family already knows has crashed? No one has yet answered that question.", is pathetic...and symptomatic of Swamps problems with reality and common sense....

Come on Swamp....lift your game dude...your embarrassing your team!!

Really? You would go to an already busy place, on the most chaotic day in history?

You would go to an airport that was already BEING closed by federal authorities? What are you going to do? Sit in your freaking car and honk your horn demanding to be let in to do what exactly? complain to company officials of the airlines? What are they exactly going to do.


Most people didn't realize that it was their relatives' planes that hit the towers, the pentagon or crashed in PA. It wasn't until hours later where it was confirmed exactly what flights they were.



Going to the AIRPORT is the EXACT opposite of what a family member would do. You show a couple examples of people being at an airport (which have no context as to why they were there).

Yeah... I know what you mean ripcurl

The grieving family members in my photos must have forgotten their signs proclaiming why they were there, in the boot of their cars'...

In the real world, as everybody except you and swamp knows, thats what happens...



And the photos, for the record, depict the relatives of the deceased on board the Air france flight from Paris To Rio.....I wonder why they chose to go to the airport??Could it be you are wrong in implying you would rather stay at home and have a cup of tea or mow your lawn??
Your logic is flawed...This is what people do....go to the airport....

[edit on 4-12-2009 by benoni]

Originally posted by benoni

And the photos, for the record, depict the relatives of the deceased on board the Air france flight from Paris To Rio.....I wonder why they chose to go to the airport??Could it be you are wrong in implying you would rather stay at home and have a cup of tea or mow your lawn??
Your logic is flawed...This is what people do....go to the airport....

[edit on 4-12-2009 by benoni]

You are comparing two VERY different incidences; one was a TERROIST act. the other was not. The airport WASNT closed for the Paris to RIO flight. 9/11/2001. THE AIRPORTS WERE CLEARED, EVACUATED AND CLOSED.

YOu coudln't get within a few blocks of an airport on 9/11/2001 without police or military asking why you were there.


On 9/11/2001 once it was confirmed that the air plane crashes were the ACT of terrorism, the GOVT quickly issued orders and reacted and had the AIRPORTS closed! Relatives of those aboard those planes HAD NO IDEA to HOURS later that it was those specific flights. What were they going to do ? GO to the airports that WERE CLOSED?



comparing apples to oranges.

Airports closed??

Then how did the Bin Laden family members manage to fly out on specially chartered planes on September 13th???

They surely used an airport???

Why was it especially "opened" for them??

Surely, as a patriot, no doubt, this worries you??
The families of the victims were denied entry to the airports, but Bin Ladens family were permitted to leave, prior to the "no fly order" being lifted ???

Thats a difficult one, and a Q the Families also want answered.....

Originally posted by benoni
Airports closed??

Then how did the Bin Laden family members manage to fly out on specially chartered planes on September 13th???

They surely used an airport???

Why was it especially "opened" for them??

Surely, as a patriot, no doubt, this worries you??
The families of the victims were denied entry to the airports, but Bin Ladens family were permitted to leave, prior to the "no fly order" being lifted ???

Thats a difficult one, and a Q the Families also want answered.....

They were not charter planes, the Bin Laden's owned them. And another fact, after the US gov questioned 19 of the Bin Laden family then and only then were they allowed to leave via their own aircraft.

Airports were open, the skys were not...Big difference.

It wasn't like when a plane crashes then the airline rep comes out and gives a speech. There was no need for familys to be at any airport in that sense because they knew that terrorists were not going hold a press conference for god's sake.

Get your facts in order.

Mate you need to get off that foggy mountain of yours..

Why were they, and only they allowed to leave the country if "the skies were closed" as you put it??

Do you not find that, at the very least, somewhat curious??

AS for getting my facts in order, I suggest you take a look at this little FBI .pdf released under FOI which clearly states the plane was chartered.....

So yeah, come off that foggy mountain...seems the airs a bit thin for you up there, and then, when your feeling better have a look...

www.judicialwatch.org...

In the document you will find numerous indiscrepancies..particularly the FBI claiming to have interviewed 20 of 23 passengers on the Ryan International Airlines flight which you state as fact the Bin ladens owned when according to the pdf they did not...(Ryan Air is owned by the BinLadens....???)
On another document, the FBI claims to have interviewed 15 of 22 passengers on the same flight.
Yeah, I see what you mean there..."then and only then," were they(19 people as you say or 23 or 22 in the FBI's documents.... its getting confusing isnt it??)

Thanks for your less than factual "facts"...and for your advice in your last sentence...very stylish......just no facts.

Here we go once again...

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

If 9-11 truthers had all the answers, then why would we be demanding truth?


Its questions like this that make us want to find out the answers.

In my personal belief - And I have to facts to back this up...
In my opinion they probably landed the plane at some military base where they used some sort of sleeping agent inside the plane and then just incinerated them all.

OR

There were no passengers at all. Just a lot of fake names.



To ad in..
There always seems to get at least one troll in every 9-11 thread. Either theres a lot of bored housewives or we have some government spooks here. Maybe a mixture.

reply to post by benoni


Couple of details...and I'm no expert on the timeline of these...

First, I have read somewhere that some people related in some way were spirited out of the USA on the afternoon of September 11, or the next day (uncertain which...perhaps someone can research?)

These flights were in smaller biz-jet types, and NOT from airports with regularly scheduled passenger flights. I recall, word of one flight from a general aviation airport in Florida.

Now, the other point, about Ryan Air, per the FOIA documents from 'judicialwatch'? That court document mentions the Ryan charter taking place on 19 September. The airspace was back to 'normal' by then, in the U.S.

I know, because I flew on the 15th, and back home to finish on the 16th. I completed the rest of my monthly schedule, as well.

Check out this video of a CNN news report from LAX. The report starts at about 7:40 into the video. Listen to how many times the reporter contradicts himself in the first 30 seconds of his report.

Reportedly, this report was at about 12 noon Eastern time, 9:00 AM Pacific time. The police officer interviewed states they are now beginning to evacuate the airport, even though there are people milling around, as captured by the video. Does this look like an urgent evacuation to you?





Also, here is an article from the USA Today which provides information that an unidentified FAA employee stated that Flight 11 and Flight 175 almost collided in the vicinity of Stewart International Airport at New Windsor, NY. These are the two alleged hijacked flights which impacted with the WTC Towers.

www.usatoday.com...

Stewart International Airport was a former military airfield which was privatized in 1999. Even though it was privatized in 1999, it was on 9/11 and is still to this day being used for military purposes.

en.wikipedia.org...

By the way, the person who spearheaded the privatization of Stewart Airport was the son of the founder of cosmetic giant Estee Lauder, Ronald Lauder. He is one of the richest men in the world and a well known Zionist supporter.

en.wikipedia.org...

So what do we have here? We have a CNN reporter at LAX who is tripping over his own words when explaining why no family members were arriving at LAX, the destination airport for three of the four alleged hijacked aircraft. This guy sounds just as bad as those 9/11 official story apologists who assert "facts" without providing any credible evidence.

Do you really believe that hundreds of relatives would just sit at home watching TV while their loved ones just died in an airplane crash? Here is the Aviation Disaster Family Assistance Act designed to help those family members who would rather not sit at home and watch TV after their loved ones have perished in an airplane accident.

www.disastermh.nebraska.edu...

We also have a report that two of the alleged aircraft which slammed into the WTC Towers crossed paths over an airport (Stewart) which was previously a military airfield and was still used for military operations on 9/11.

Now, if you wanted to pull of the old switcheroo with the alleged hijacked planes, an airport which was still involved in military operations may not be a bad place to do it. Or maybe, this was just another one of those inexplicable coincidences.

Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
The police officer interviewed states they are now beginning to evacuate the airport, even though there are people milling around, as captured by the video. Does this look like an urgent evacuation to you?

You've never been to LAX have you. Its the third busiest airport in the nation / seventh in the world.

Have you tried to evacuate thousands of people without causing a commotion? no.

People are "milling" around various reasons. They are waiting on news for their rescheduled flights .Waiting for rides. Some could be not from the LA area and LAX is was their connection airport and are arranging places to stay or transportation or both.

Before going half cocked on blaming, you may want to look at reality.

"Before going half cocked on blaming, you may want to look at reality."

Unlike you, everything which I posted was based on evidence in the media. I leave it up to the reader to draw their own conclusions.

Like another poster said, you need to pick up your game and try and counter with real evidence and common sense, instead of insults. But then again, people who specialize in insults, have little or no common sense or evidence to stand by. No sweat - I enjoy reading your fiction regardless.

reply to post by SphinxMontreal

...here is an article from the USA Today which provides information that an unidentified FAA employee stated that Flight 11 and Flight 175 almost collided in the vicinity of Stewart International Airport at New Windsor, NY.

I would put that USAToday article in the "Hysteria in the recent aftermath" bin of rampant speculation and possible misunderstanding. Especially since it is unsourced/anonymous.

What could be looked into is the timing of the two flights, and their departures from BOS. (Since they had the same destination, it is reasonable to assume their flight plans would be nearly the same, if not identical --- in terms of routing, that is).

Would be interesting if someone could get ahold of their PDCs to compare.

However, since when the transponders were turned off, and whichever ATC facilities subsequently were trying to track them using only primary radar returns, with NO altitude information, claiming "almost collided" is a bit of an exaggeration. One has to remember to think in three dimensions concerning airplanes...a radar scope view is just a two-dimensional view, when the altitude data is lacking.

Let's see if I can link a page showing the JetAirways, and the area so everyone can see for themselves what is being described here...

Well, I don't know how to take a screenshot, so I'll walk you through it. Go to:

skyvector.com...

Type in 'KSWF' in the box on the right labeled 'Location Lookup'

It will bring you to a Sectional Chart (VFR) with the 'NEWBURGH' (KSWF/Stewart) centered.

Look up, and click on the 'Enroute H-12' tab to bring up the High Enroute Chart #12...this one will show you, on one page, all the way back to BOS, and down to NYC area.

The Stewart airport is about midway between two VORs, the Huguenot (HUO) and the Kingston (IGN).

If you look North, you can find the Albany (ALB) VOR, which was part of the flight plan routing for at least one of them (forget which one) and likely both, as it is usually part of the SID (Standard Instrument Departure) procedures out of BOS.

So, given the various departure times, and taking into account the cockpit takeover times might have been different, it seems odd that they'd both track over the Stewart airport at the same time.

And, anyway...to suppose a 'switheroo' doesn't make sense...it would take a lot of time, and would be exceedingly more complicated than just accepting the fact that the airplanes were hijacked. A preponderence of substantiating evidence points to all four, including AAL 77 --- which, after I wrote all of this, I reminded myself is the topic of this thread.

Well, a little more knowledge can't hurt, eh?

Gave my first star away to you today sphinxmontreal ....

Great video mate.......I love the bit near the end where the reporter can only confirm 2 family members had arrived at LAX...2 !!!

As was mentioned previously, if everybody had all the answers there would be no need for questions....

This whole sordid tale beggars belief.

As for ripcurl....sheeesh.

reply to post by benoni

I love the bit near the end where the reporter can only confirm 2 family members had arrived at LAX...2 !!!

I love the bit where this non-issue keeps getting raised as some sort of "Golly gee!", "smoking-gun" proof...it is not, and it is easy to see why once you really think about it.

First, the most obvious is the time zone difference. West coast of the United States (PDT on that date) versus East coast (EDT). Three hours.

One has only to consider the local Los Angeles area time (PDT) when the events were occurring in NYC...(EDT). Three hours, mates.

THEN, simple logic will tell you that...in the Los Angeles area, the scheduled arrival times are somewhere around 1100 to 1200 local PDT.

American Airlines, for instance, has a flight in their schedule this month, a nonstop BOS-LAX #25, departs 0720 arrives 1050 --- that is a total gate to gate (or "block-to-block") time of 6+30. Their other nonstops, different times of day, show b-t-b times of 6+40. Is this making sense yet?

Let's look at IAD-LAX...various block times...5+50 to 5+55.

In case the point of this has been missed, I'll spell it out: IF there were any people in the LA area that morining intending to go down to LAX to meet/pickup anyone from those flights (AAL 11, UAL 175, AAL 77) then doesn't it seem logical and reasonable that they would NOT be at the airport six hours before the flights were scheduled to arrive??? Isn't it immediately obvious that they saw the news, from home, and never set out to the airport? By the time they were making their morning coffee, in LA, when it was still about THREE hours until the scheduled arrivals...the news had the flight number information. WHY would they get in a car, and drive to the airport????

Now, there is another segment to this 'red herring' that just won't die, but lingers on.

The number of those passengers who did NOT have family in LA. How many? Just a look at most of their home addresses answers that.

ALSO, we have a lot of business people on flights like that -- early moring transcons. THEY get to LA, rent a car, or check into their hotels...

I mean, this is so obvious to me, maybe because I travel so much.....

PS...does not anyone remember the husband/wife team who were Hollywood producers, they were on AAL 11? They were executives/creators on the TV show "Frasier". They are gone - dead on that flight. I wonder why people continue to think otherwise....

I'm sorry weedwhacker but I disagree..

Just because their home addys werent in LA(and i dont know if this is the case..care to post a link?)doesnt, in any shape or form , follow that they never had family in LA!!

If my wife was on board a plane that went down in the sea , hours away from her destination, I , and surely many others. would feel compelled to head for the airport...for any news...any.

When the Air France plane crashed in the Atlantic earlier this year, family members flocked to both CDG and the Rio airports respectively....in total contradiction to what you have just said...the photos above show you this....see the Gendarme at CDG....thousands of miles from the crash site??

What prompted these people to head to the airport, yet on 9/11 nobody, except, if CNN is to be believed, 2 people????

Red Herrings you say??

I know exactly what you mean....





[edit on 6-12-2009 by benoni]

[edit on 6-12-2009 by benoni]

reply to post by benoni



Here:

911research.wtc7.net...

Passenger manifests.

Don't take my opinion, experience, and plain common logic for it --- ask THEM.

Air France crash is NOT a valid comparison, in any case. Can you guess why?

Perhaps someone else will jump in, and explain. I don't know how to enhance what should be obvious to everyone.
______________________________________________________-

Wished to add: Look up on AAL 11 mainfest, in Business Class. Listed as # 11 and #12. David and Lynn Angell. Seats Row 8, A & B. THEY were the producers/creators/executives on the TV show I mentioned, in case anyone missed it. "Frasier". Check the website Imdb...here: www.imdb.com...

Scroll down to David Angell's name: Here -- www.imdb.com...

Now...what is really crreepy?? Atta sat just across the aisle from Lynn Angell. Row 8. Seat D.

Just in case you don't know how the seats were arranged ----

Row 7 -- A/B -- D/G -- H/J
Row 8 -- A/B -- D/G -- H/J
Row 9
Row 10
Row 11 (ditto)

Typical Boeing 767 Business Class configuration--- 2 -- 2 -- 2.

Here's a graphic too: 911research.wtc7.net...

You can research all the other flights as well.



[edit on 6 December 2009 by weedwhacker]