Is Jesus the only way to find God?

reply to post by badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia
And that is another reason I am not a christian. The entire sacrifice of Jesus is a lie. And you will only ever be able to quote Paul to the effect of the sacrifice.

NIV
Mark 10:45
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many.”

I’m still not sure, how the above verse should be interpreted…?

Originally posted by badmedia
Salvation is found in the life of Jesus, not in his death. He shows that it is better to die physically, than to break a commandment and commit sin. It's part of how he lived a sin free life.

If the sacrifice were true, then explain the rich man who comes to Jesus. Why doesn't Jesus tell that rich man that he has come to die for his sins? Jesus says it is easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than a rich man into heaven. But Christianity and Paul say otherwise. They accept that rich man outright and tell him he will go to heaven - so long as he gives a bit of that coin to the church - the replacement of god's authority by men.

I have pondered over a similar question myself…Christians of course will argue, that salvation is found in, both Jesus life and teachings and his death, combined.

Although to me, how people define the sacrifice (and I hate that word) is critical, because this idea that Jesus died for all the sins that an individual person has ever done or ever will do, is wrong to me. Simply because, that idea, would seem to make a mockery of Jesus life and teachings. I mean the only way people are forgiven for anything, is by praying directly to God for forgiveness, which is exactly what Jesus taught us to do, in his lifetime.


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft

NIV
Mark 10:45
“For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many.”

I’m still not sure, how the above verse should be interpreted…?

For me, it just goes right back to what he does in his life. He served the people by giving them understanding, where as the powers of the time had the people serving them. In the KJV, the verse has the word ministry in it.

45For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

By doing what he does, he is murdered for it by those who choose their own power on earth over the father.

Ok, take a soldier who goes and fights in a war for the freedom of others. That soldier is said to have "laid their life down", or "made a sacrifice". But that is much much different than treating that soldier as if it was a ritualistic sacrifice, as if that soldier just went and did the entire thing just to die. I'm not in favor of war, but you can see the difference in it that way.

When it's treated as a ritual, then I disagree. If it is treated as if he did the things he did despite the consequences because he loved and wanted to help the people that much, then I'm all in favor of it.

And when he did that, he also gives the ultimate message in his death. It is better to die without sin, than to take up evil to "save yourself"

I have pondered over a similar question myself…Christians of course will argue, that salvation is found in, both Jesus life and teachings and his death, combined.

Although to me, how people define the sacrifice (and I hate that word) is critical, because this idea that Jesus died for all the sins that an individual person has ever done or ever will do, is wrong to me. Simply because, that idea, would seem to make a mockery of Jesus life and teachings. I mean the only way people are forgiven for anything, is by praying directly to God for forgiveness, which is exactly what Jesus taught us to do, in his lifetime.

Yes, I think the sacrifice bit is the ultimate deception. It makes people focus on that, rather than walking the path and keeping the commandments.

And the entire thing about the sacrifice is actually false in logic itself, Jesus doesn't actually pay the price for sin in his death. It is because he is sin free that he is "risen" and doesn't die the death of the soul.

The penalty for sins is death correct? Is that the death of the body - which Jesus says not to fear, or is it the death of the soul? We all die physically.

All Jesus does is die physically. Something we all do. Therefore, if that is the price of sin, and he has paid it - then why do people still die physically? His death was an injustice, and pretty brutal. But do we not see that everywhere? And Jesus even says true believers will be persecuted.

The penalty for sin is the death of the soul. But again, that is not what Jesus pays for. They are putting the physical death of Jesus in the place of death of the soul in order to make this claim that he died for the sins in the ritual manner.

If physical death is the penalty for sin, and Jesus paid that price. Then it means nobody has believed in him since. Religious or otherwise.

If it's the death of the soul, then Jesus doesn't die that death. He is risen.

And how can it be dieing for all the worlds sins if it doesn't include even those who don't believe? That is to say only some of the worlds sin is forgiven, and only for those who happen to belong to a certain religion. Nonsense.

I feel the ritualistic sacrifice cheapens all that Jesus said and stood up for. I am happy that some still are able to focus on his life despite the death part, but sad for those who only look at his death for salvation.

reply to post by pthena

Originally posted by pthena
Jesus is in the Koran. I've only read it once, so am no expert. If I understand correctly the Shia at least believe that Jesus will return with the 12th Imam on the last day.

Yes, Jesus is in the Koran…I am no expert myself on this but if my memory serves me correctly, Jesus is seen as prophet who has the power to protect people from evil spirits. Not sure about the Shia thing I would have to look that up.

Originally posted by pthena
I have written extensively on these subjects in Contradiction? Salvation by faith or works? www.belowtopsecret.com...
The discussion went on for some time. It seems there is a limit on when you can go back and edit posts, so some things that I would have recanted, I couldn't. It was a process of discovery much like your thread here.

Thank you, I will try and look at what you have written…I have been busy reading some other threads…

Originally posted by pthena
There is one God who hears our prayers. God cares less about religion than we do.

That is what I intuitively believe, that God hears every ones prayers who seek him with an open heart.

Originally posted by pthena
I wrote a poem in '96

Don't Worry

That prophet will be gone some day
then we'll be free to go our own way,
forgetting what he had to say.

Once we've forgotten everything but his name
then we'll be free to proclaim his fame.

If in our rhetoric we can keep him shod
then we'll be free to call him our God.

Nice poem and very true in many ways…especially the part about only remembering his name.

There is more to a person than just there name. In fact IMO a name means nothing, What defines a person is their character, essence and spirit/soul (what they stand for etc) that can be seen and felt a mile away. I mean, imagine that a close friend is standing next to you in spirit and you cant make them out properly with your eyes and they don’t tell you their name. You would still know, who it is, that is standing there. A lot like when the disciples didn’t recognize Jesus at first after his resurrection but later on, they did.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

Thank you, I will try and look at what you have written…I have been busy reading some other threads…

I was hoping that I hadn't gone through all that work for only two people.
most of the ideas still seem sound to me, and worth consideration, some I would edit out if it weren't too late. Feel free to appreciate what you will and pass by what you will. I did try to keep it consistant.



[edit on 30-11-2009 by pthena]

I believe Jesus is the only true way to the Father. If we just look at some of the titles attributed to Jesus, such as, Immanuel, the root of Jesse, the bridegroom, the Son of Man, the way, the truth, the life, the resurrection, the true vine (and many others) common sense dictates there is a reason why he has all these names. It's when we start coming into spiritual truths and have those "aha" moments given by the spirit, where we're able to say "So, that's why they call him the bridegroom!"

But all that aside for a moment - I got goosebumps when I read about the voice you heard asking "what is man" or "what am I". Like yourself, I'm not prone to hearing voices but in the past few years - it's happened twice now. But that is nothing compared to some of the things that have happened, and what is so strange is that the occurences seem to be happening more frequently. I guess some of the things could be labeled coincidences but I don't think coincidences are supposed to come with so many frequent flyer miles.

What's even stranger is that most everything of a paranormal nature that has happened to me throughout my life can be found in the Bible or at least has a base to fall back on. For example, about a month ago, I had laid down to go to sleep and I heard a voice. It was deep, sort of off key, and similar to a rolll of thunder in how it vibrated. It said "ya vay." Like yourself, the next day I go searching on the net and type it in and I get all these hits on "Yahveh" which is a sacred name of God. I always call God - God, or Yahweh, or Jehovah. I never knew this spelling or pronounciation of it.

I've come to learn that when a question is posed in the Bible - there is a higher hidden meaning, that's meant to be revealed to the reader. I know scipture fairly well and as soon as I read the question the voice said to you I thought of a passage that says something eerily similar:

"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" Numbers 23:19

You may want to consider a brief study of the Book of Numbers, along with the other stuff you found. There may be something in there that resonates well with you.

Also, when Moses was sent to free the Israelites, the people asked him, 'who sent you?' The name God gave to Moses to tell them was "I am who I am."


[edit on 1-12-2009 by Myrtales Instinct]

reply to post by badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia
When it's treated as a ritual, then I disagree. If it is treated as if he did the things he did despite the consequences because he loved and wanted to help the people that much, then I'm all in favor of it.

And when he did that, he also gives the ultimate message in his death. It is better to die without sin, than to take up evil to "save yourself"

Yes I think that is the way I see it, that it should be looked at in the sense you have described, in that he did it despite the consequences.

Mark 10:45
For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

I been thinking a bit more about the Mark 10:45 verse…

Maybe, it literally means what is say’s…”give his life” meaning, his life message/teachings, rather than meaning, to die but also, that there would be a price to pay for bringing the message i.e. Jesus own death. Or another way of looking at it, could be to say that Jesus brought the message of truth, knowing that he would die for it, because God knows everything, even before it happens.

Originally posted by badmedia
The penalty for sins is death correct? Is that the death of the body - which Jesus says not to fear, or is it the death of the soul? We all die physically.

Well, my current understanding on this, is that it is possible that Jesus died only, for “original sin”, the fall of man sin, or “Adamic sin”, as it is sometimes termed. Original sin, is where man turned away from God and sought after his own knowledge and because of this, death entered the world, hence, the wages of sin is death. Prier to that, Adam and Eve, lived in a world where there was no physical death. When you believe in Jesus death and resurrection…original sin and being cut off from God, no longer applies to you.

IMO this means you have connected back to God and are forgiven for “original sin”. I don’t personally believe it means you are forgiven for all of your sins (see my previous post, for the reason why) because the sins of an individual, are dealt with, in Jesus life and teachings.

The only dilemma I have personally, about believing the above, is that if people don’t know about Jesus death and resurrection i.e. other Religious groups, then that would mean, they are all, cut off from God.

It is possible, though, that everyone in the world is now forgiven for “original sin” because of Jesus death and resurrection, whether they are, aware of it, or not. If that is true, then that would mean that anyone, anywhere, can connect back to God, at any time. I don’t believe though, that they are forgiven for their individual sins, unless they pray for forgiveness for them. The only way they can learn, to do that, is by getting to know God.



- JC

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
I believe Jesus is the only true way to the Father. If we just look at some of the titles attributed to Jesus, such as, Immanuel, the root of Jesse, the bridegroom, the Son of Man, the way, the truth, the life, the resurrection, the true vine (and many others) common sense dictates there is a reason why he has all these names. It's when we start coming into spiritual truths and have those "aha" moments given by the spirit, where we're able to say "So, that's why they call him the bridegroom!"

Yes I have absolutely no doubt in my, mind that Jesus is the way to the Father. I guess the key question is…do you need to have the bible in front of you, in order to find the Farther?…for example in other parts of the world, where this is just not possible.

Just about everything Jesus teaches us, is about getting to know the Father, seeking the Farther, I and the Farther are one, the kingdom of God is within you etc etc… I mean, how can any man state, that other religions out there, who pray to God, are not speaking directly to the Farther. It’s ok to say they do not know the man named Jesus, who had the spirit of Father/God within him but surely we cannot say, that they do not know God, just because they don’t know about the man named Jesus.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
But all that aside for a moment - I got goosebumps when I read about the voice you heard asking "what is man" or "what am I".

You got goosebumps lol… you should have seen me at the time…it took me about two weeks, before I could even confront the question. And when I tried too, I just kind of stood there, with this blank expression on my face lol I just didn’t know where to start or even just how to be able to begin and try to answer the question.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
Like yourself, I'm not prone to hearing voices but in the past few years - it's happened twice now. But that is nothing compared to some of the things that have happened, and what is so strange is that the occurences seem to be happening more frequently. I guess some of the things could be labeled coincidences but I don't think coincidences are supposed to come with so many frequent flyer miles.

I wise man once said “there are no coincidences”. I have only heard the audible voice once but the other words I seem to be getting, can’t be heard…I just kind of feel them, a lot like intuition.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
What's even stranger is that most everything of a paranormal nature that has happened to me throughout my life can be found in the Bible or at least has a base to fall back on. For example, about a month ago, I had laid down to go to sleep and I heard a voice. It was deep, sort of off key, and similar to a rolll of thunder in how it vibrated. It said "ya vay." Like yourself, the next day I go searching on the net and type it in and I get all these hits on "Yahveh" which is a sacred name of God. I always call God - God, or Yahweh, or Jehovah. I never knew this spelling or pronounciation of it.

Wow that’s incredible…

The voice I heard was very strong and powerful but at the same time it was gentle and firm but not scary. That’s the best way I can describe it and also I seemed to be transfixed by it, as if there was no escaping it lol but I was not afraid.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
I've come to learn that when a question is posed in the Bible - there is a higher hidden meaning, that's meant to be revealed to the reader. I know scipture fairly well and as soon as I read the question the voice said to you I thought of a passage that says something eerily similar:

"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" Numbers 23:19

You may want to consider a brief study of the Book of Numbers, along with the other stuff you found. There may be something in there that resonates well with you.

Thanks, I will definitely take a look, although recently I feel more drawn to proverbs, for some reason.


PS – Are you the one, with the buzzing, in your foot?



- JC

Yeah, that's me. I now refer to it, as my own little cross I carry around.

People don't need a Bible to find God, but all must look eagerly. We reach an age of accountability, then it's up to us to either seek him out or put him off. The choice is ours. I've studied thousands of near death experiences and even after death, people who don't know Jesus can call out to him and he still shows up. One minute they're in darkness freaking out, then a spec of light appears and here comes Jesus.

Now, if we want to understand our experiences, the Bible is a treasure-trove.

Just out of curiousity have you ever experienced sleep paralysis?

Originally posted by Joecroft
Well, my current understanding on this, is that it is possible that Jesus died only, for “original sin”, the fall of man sin, or “Adamic sin”, as it is sometimes termed. Original sin, is where man turned away from God and sought after his own knowledge and because of this, death entered the world, hence, the wages of sin is death. Prier to that, Adam and Eve, lived in a world where there was no physical death. When you believe in Jesus death and resurrection…original sin and being cut off from God, no longer applies to you.

IMO this means you have connected back to God and are forgiven for “original sin”. I don’t personally believe it means you are forgiven for all of your sins (see my previous post, for the reason why) because the sins of an individual, are dealt with, in Jesus life and teachings.

The only dilemma I have personally, about believing the above, is that if people don’t know about Jesus death and resurrection i.e. other Religious groups, then that would mean, they are all, cut off from God.

It is possible, though, that everyone in the world is now forgiven for “original sin” because of Jesus death and resurrection, whether they are, aware of it, or not. If that is true, then that would mean that anyone, anywhere, can connect back to God, at any time. I don’t believe though, that they are forgiven for their individual sins, unless they pray for forgiveness for them. The only way they can learn, to do that, is by getting to know God.

We are basically in agreement on the other part, so I'm just gonna reply to this part.

I think the answer to this is found in genesis.

The tree of knowledge makes them know both "good and evil". Knowledge and understanding of these things comes from the tree of knowledge in genesis.

In this manner, it's no different than how you understand the difference between hot and cold. You can only understand the temperature difference by experiencing both of them. Thus, to know and understand "good", you must also know and understand "evil".

Now, you can just be good, just as you can just be hot. And that is what Adam and Eve represented before the tree of knowledge. They just were, they did not understand good or evil, they were just as they were made. Innocent and so forth.

God repeats that man will become as gods, knowing both good and evil. The deception of the snake IMO is that in order to experience "evil", it means you have to lose the "good". Just like in order to experience cold, you do not experience hot at the same time.

Because of this, you are thrown into an evil world ignorant. I don't think that is really debatable. Some try to act is if knowledge and understanding is bad, like it is to eat from the tree of knowledge. But it isn't. The fact that we are already here separated from the garden and so forth means we've already taken from that tree. Now that we are here, it is not the father who wishes to keep us ignorant, but "Satan". Because that will keep us doing evil, as we are ignorant etc.

So IMO, original sin is ignorance. It's ignorance that makes people do evil things. Being "Deceived" is only possible among those who are ignorant, and so forth.

Because of the evil, we are removed from the garden to protect the "good". Our very presence makes the heavenly society impossible - as we talked about before. So this planet is under quarantine.

Now lets move on to the tower of babel. When I first read that, I thought wth, why did they purposely make men war with each other, they were united. But think about it.

The reason it was done is because if men had been allowed out into the universe, then what would they have done if they came across other life/cultures/civilizations? They would try to war with them and enslave them. Proof of this is found in what happens after, and our own history. Because when the languages were changed and cultures changed - nobody forces those people to war with each other. They were only united because they were alike. Once the differences appeared, war and so forth. And that is exactly what men would have done to others. This is again why we were removed from the garden to being with.

So Moses is given the commandments. If men follow those correctly, then they would be fit for a "heavenly" society. These are of course mostly misunderstood. Chief of which is they forget - Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord. They believe it is up to them to carry out the vengence. And so they kill the man who killed(eye for an eye). But this is a misunderstanding.

And so then you get Jesus. Who by example follows the laws and in doing so brings the proper understanding needed to keep them, thus making the person fit for a "heavenly" society.

So you get the fallen moment, with the ignorance and the acceptance of evil as a result, and then the eventual uplifting from understanding and wisdom, and it comes full circle.

Because of this, as soon as you repent for your sins you are forgiven and it's not an issue. Regardless of race and so forth. It's universal. All that is wanted is that we repent for our sins, which is to fix our mistakes.

Some people say that by accepting Jesus, they will just go back to being the good only as Adam and Eve were before eating from the tree. And this could very well be possible. But I am skeptical for 1 reason. That Adam and Eve took from that to begin with means there was a reason for it. And if that reason is there then, it would be there after. Which means you could just end up in an infinite loop. Of course, if never tempted or given the option then it wouldn't happen, but then goes away the freedom/freewill.

So I don't know about that. But I do know that either by choice/wisdom or by just "being good", all will be following the commandments and be like Jesus.



[edit on 12/2/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
Yeah, that's me. I now refer to it, as my own little cross I carry around.

I thought it was you…

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
People don't need a Bible to find God, but all must look eagerly. We reach an age of accountability, then it's up to us to either seek him out or put him off. The choice is ours.

I agree and this why I feel it is more about people finding and coming to know God, than it is about condemnation. Many church doctrines use the expression, that someone is “saved” and celebrate it, but is it not better to say, “WOW, this person has found God”. After all, no one is automatically “saved”, it is an ongoing life process. As Jesus hints towards, in the following verse…

NIV
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
Just out of curiousity have you ever experienced sleep paralysis?

No, I have never had sleep paralysis but I did have an OBE once, when I was younger. My dad suffered from sleep paralysis though, he told me about it once and it sounded quite scary. He told me he would see creatures in his room, while lying in bed, almost like angels, as if they were coming in from another dimension. My dad told me he just had to lay there, watching them (He couldn’t move). He didn’t get it very often but I think he had it, for most of his life.



- JC


[edit on 2-12-2009 by Joecroft]

reply to post by Joecroft


Is Jesus the only way to find God?
Short Answer is yes.

Why?
First of all, God is a God of order. To Abraham it was promised that through him, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. That blessing was manifested through his son Isaac, later known as Jacob. Jacob had twelve sons, who became the nation of Israel.
In the Exodus, God saved the nation of Israel from bondage in Egypt. Before the final judgment/plague against Egypt, Israel was instructed to prepare the first Passover, a Lamb without blemish, and to mark their doors with the blood as protection from the angel coming to slay the firstborn of Egypt. This is typecast of Jesus, who is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.
While in the wilderness, God gave Moses the Law, the first five books of the Bible. In Leviticus 23, there were 7 feasts, known as Feasts of the Lord, which the people of Israel were to keep. The first four Feasts were fulfilled by Christ. The final three will be fulfilled at the end of the Tribulation. The Feasts are:

1. Passover The crucifixion of our Lord (Fulfilled)
2. Unleavened Bread Our Lord's body in the tomb (Fulfilled)
3. First Fruits The resurrection of our Lord (Fulfilled)
4. Shavuot (Pentecost) The Holy Ghost was given (Fulfilled)
5. Feast of Trumpets At the sound of the last Trump (Un-fulfilled)
6. Day of Atonement God judged Israel each year (Un-fulfilled)
7. Feast of Tabernacles Called the Wedding Feast (Un-fulfilled)

"The reason I ask this question is because recently I started thinking about all the other non Christian faiths/religious groups, in the world, who pray to God."
At the end of Revelation, following the Millennium, at the Great White Throne Judgment, the books are opened and ALL the dead are judged. Prior to the reading from the Book of Life, these resurrected dead will have the opportunity to understand Jesus and His purpose, and the Laws of God. As it truly is a fearsome thing to fall into the hands of the Living God, this is not an experience to look forward to. However, it is God's plan to redeem all of mankind, and all will know the truth of the mystery of God.
God's plan is perfect and complete. Jesus meant what he said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. Spiritual Life is the only life which matters to God, since the flesh is dominated by the prince of this world. (Jesus came to his own, and his own knew him not). Christ's sacrifice is the free gift from the Creator, the only sacrifice which is valid to a Holy God, through which salvation of the world can come, and the curse proclaimed in Genesis can be removed.
All this being said, many say we are living in the final days before the Great Tribulation. I strongly agree with this view, as the time line given to the Prophet Daniel is about to kick in. In the meantime, the Lord's Spirit is at work calling His people to Himself.

Daniel's Timeline
www.youtube.com...
[edit on 12/4/2009 by maryjk_99]

[edit on 12/4/2009 by maryjk_99]

reply to post by badmedia

Originally posted by badmedia
We are basically in agreement on the other part, so I'm just gonna reply to this part.

I think the answer to this is found in genesis.

The tree of knowledge makes them know both "good and evil". Knowledge and understanding of these things comes from the tree of knowledge in genesis.

In this manner, it's no different than how you understand the difference between hot and cold. You can only understand the temperature difference by experiencing both of them. Thus, to know and understand "good", you must also know and understand "evil".

Now, you can just be good, just as you can just be hot. And that is what Adam and Eve represented before the tree of knowledge. They just were, they did not understand good or evil, they were just as they were made. Innocent and so forth.

Yeah, I guess the way I look at is kind of similar in that Adam and Eve were living in the “good” so to speak. All there knowledge, if you will, came directly from God without knowing anything about evil. I kind of don’t take genesis literally but I do believe it is trying to portray a story i.e. I see it more allegorically. My own way of looking at it is, is that at some point man decided to seek his own knowledge/understanding (turned away from God’s knowledge) and that’s when man learned of evil. Obviously God wants us too seek him and his understanding and wisdom etc…there is nothing wrong with understanding in itself.

Originally posted by badmedia
Now lets move on to the tower of babel. When I first read that, I thought wth, why did they purposely make men war with each other, they were united. But think about it.

The reason it was done is because if men had been allowed out into the universe, then what would they have done if they came across other life/cultures/civilizations?…

…They would try to war with them and enslave them. Proof of this is found in what happens after, and our own history. Because when the languages were changed and cultures changed - nobody forces those people to war with each other. They were only united because they were alike. Once the differences appeared, war and so forth. And that is exactly what men would have done to others. This is again why we were removed from the garden to being with.

I haven’t thought much about the tower of Babel, although I did discuss it on another thread last year, mainly regarding the design of the tower itself. I can see the point you are making, in that man has needed to learn a valuable spiritual lesson, which unfortunately, is still being learned today. The reason I have taken so long to reply is because…do you believe that man had the technological ability, to reach out into the universe, back in those times! or did you mean it in future tense?


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
Yeah, I guess the way I look at is kind of similar in that Adam and Eve were living in the “good” so to speak. All there knowledge, if you will, came directly from God without knowing anything about evil. I kind of don’t take genesis literally but I do believe it is trying to portray a story i.e. I see it more allegorically. My own way of looking at it is, is that at some point man decided to seek his own knowledge/understanding (turned away from God’s knowledge) and that’s when man learned of evil. Obviously God wants us too seek him and his understanding and wisdom etc…there is nothing wrong with understanding in itself.

Yes, it is allegorical. But I think there is also some literal value in it as well. Such as the part about being removed from the garden(universe) and being quarantined on this planet. This seems to be apparent to me that it's the case, and with so many other cultures telling the same general story, it makes me give it some credibility.

I learned about having to know both good and evil to understand when I wondered about the state of the world and why. That was the understanding I was given about it. As well as understanding why there is the separation/quarantine.

It all goes hand in hand with the "way", and how can you live in a society without theft if you are yourself a thief and how your very existence in that society by default makes it no longer possible.

A big cycle loop IMO. The fall of man, followed by the rise of man when they are uplifted at the end. In the end, all things are at the will of god and have reason and purpose.

Some call it a prison, I prefer to think of it as a school.

I haven’t thought much about the tower of Babel, although I did discuss it on another thread last year, mainly regarding the design of the tower itself. I can see the point you are making, in that man has needed to learn a valuable spiritual lesson, which unfortunately, is still being learned today. The reason I have taken so long to reply is because…do you believe that man had the technological ability, to reach out into the universe, back in those times! or did you mean it in future tense?

I am almost sure we are not the most advanced we have ever been. So much of history was destroyed 2000 years ago to now. The world has been "destroyed" a few times over according to many cultures. I think this is a reseting of the lesson for the next "school year".

For example, in the hindu religion at the end of each age the angels and demons all hug each other, and then go on about it again. In the bible/revelation, there is 1000 years of peace, then it starts over again - don't think there is a hug though.

But this is all speculation, I have no way of knowing for sure. It's not the kind of thing the father gives me. I can understand the reason for the school and all that, but I don't know world history outside the word of men.