Can consciousness exist without the brain?

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Me familiar with that falsey dichotomy-ee thingy. Don't patronizing me.

I suppose we can employ false n-chotomies which become false choice fallacies: coffee, tea or milk? No sir, KoolAid!

For the claim of the fallacy to have validity one must show that the choices are in fact variate and the definition is not that of a dimension of polarity. But then, one must also show the existence of a continuum. If it is discrete, we can arrive at it strictly by answering yes/no questions, log2(N) of them in fact.

Whether science and pseudoscience belong on a singlar dimensional scale is debatable. It could be a false polarity continuum when the space is likely highly multidimensional.

Anyway, are you saying I'm employing the false dichotomy or that is the "something"? Really I'm not sure why you brought it up and so I rambled on.


[edit on 11/15/2009 by EnlightenUp]

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Nice quotes, but like i already said. Define the mechanics of this soul or *echo*. I can already safely show individuality in the sense of consciousness ,memories and personality etc via biological means. I have yet to see you show an example of consciousness,memories and personality that are not biological in nature. I can even show you a person with memories and a personality who after serious brain trauma has neither the same memories or personality....What can you show me?

[edit on 15-11-2009 by Solomons]

reply to post by GrandKitaro777


Let's be clear.

YOU are NOT your brain. YOU are NOT your body. YOU use your body as a tool to do whatever it is you want to do.

We are like twinkies. The outer chocolate shell is your body and the inside filling is your conciousness. Take the shell away, and the filling is still there.

If we are to believe in ghosts and other various forms of the paranormal, than conciousness most certainly exists outside of the "physical" realm we exist in.

So to answer your question, I think yes. There is no need for a body unless you live on this plane. If we were pure energy, there will still be a driving force there, the soul.

~Keeper

reply to post by Solomons


How does one provide physical proof of something that is not physical? Just because I cannot "capture" a soul and provide it to you for study does not mean it does not exist. Rather like we have yet to actually SEE a blackhole yet it is accepted by science as existing.... But in the end the gist is in the anomolies.
'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain (NewScientist)
Decoding The Mystery Of Near-Death Experiences (NPR)
And there are a few papers on the subject.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
How does one provide physical proof of something that is not physical?

Surely if the soul exists, it is some form of energy. Everything is energy then surely the soul is too, it is something you have to look for. I think its debatable if the governments have found what energy the soul is already, or not

reply to post by andy1033


The brain does produce a electrical and magnetic field. ELECTRIC FIELDS OF THE BRAIN: THE NEUROPHYSICS OF EEG SECOND EDITION (googlebooks)

I say conciousness is not a product of the brain,rather the brain, and the body, is a product of conciousness.
If you stand on top of a skyscraper and look down on all the cars moving they appear intelligent, concious of each other. One stops, those following stop, one beeps at another it beeps back at it. But then one is observed pulling over and stopping. Out of it emerges a smaller creature- the real driving force of the car after all. Likewise our body is the "car". A shell.
The intelligent "driver" is the soul. The body is merely a vehicle for our soul to operate through in order to intergrate with the physical.

Originally posted by Solomons
No it cannot, every animals is conscious in varying degrees..you know the type im talking about. Ours is more sophisticated and an evolutionary trait, completely confined within the brain..nowhere else. Just look at folks with severe brain trauma. In any case once the brain is starved of oxygen and rapidly dies our consciousness goes with it. No zooming off to some mystical plane, doesn't matter how much you want to believe it is any different. Course i will be called all sorts for not believing in the fantasies of the mind, but im no doubt correct.

I disagree entirely. Correlations between the mind and brain can be better explained by the filter model of the brain than the mind=brain model. Particularly the example you brought up about severe brain trauma.

For example, if somebody hits their head and suffers amnesia or a loss of cognitive function, you might think that this is proof that the brain produces these things - but the filter view can also account for this just as easily by saying that the trauma damaged the brain's ability to allow consciousness to be experienced.

For every correlation you can bring up the filter view of the brain can provide such an answer. On the other hand there are many examples I can bring up where the filter model simply outperforms the physicalist model of consciousness.

For example, those who suffer from severe hydrocephalus can be left with less than 5% of the brain mass of a normal person, and even in these extreme examples there are people who have above average IQs and seemingly no cognitive deficits.
Where is consciousness?
Tiny Brain, Normal Life
(Also see John Lorber's work, which was published in the peer-reviewed journal The Lancet.)

Additionally, there are people who suffer from severe brain degeneration who can't even remember the names and faces of family members, or hold a coherent conversation. Sometimes as these people approach death they enter a lucid-clear thinking state where they can remember, think, and speak clearly despite the fact that the brain damage supposedly responsible for their mental affliction is still very much present at the time. This phenomenon is called 'Terminal Lucidity', and it's well established.
The Brain: The Power of Hope

I'm also curious as to what you think about brainless organisms that demonstrate learning ability. Stuart Hameroff brought up the point that single cell paramecium can find mates, have sex, find food, avoid predators, and learn (if you suck it into a capillary tube, it escapes, if you suck it in again, it escapes faster), all without any synapses. Also, single-celled brainless slime molds can learn and unlearn patterns.
Slime Molds Show Surprising Intelligence

All of these things are no problem if you believe consciousness to be something fundamental and not limited to the brain.

You posted a link to an article titled ‘'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain (NewScientist)’. This actually changes nothing about the debate at all. Hypothetically even if a unique signature was found corresponding to conscious attention, it doesn’t prove that the signature itself is consciousness. Ex: The filter view would say that the signature is actually the brain’s response to consciousness, not the brain producing consciousness.

Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by LifENcircleS

 

Just read up on what the brain does, it just receives information and transmits it out.

The governments already know this and we all have our own certain frequency. The only trouble i have with it, is where do we transmit and receive to and fro.

If you do look at how the brain works, that is all it does really, so ask yourself, where is your mind then, if its outside your brain?

The problem with your question is it is asking the wrong question.

There are three parts:

1. Consciousness
2. Brain
3. Mind

It is Counsciousness that connects your Brain to the Mind of the Universe, which then mimics Life.

Ribbit

dmt: spirit molecule 2010 version www.megaupload.com...

may be of some interest

I always think of the brain and consciousness like a TV set. TV sets are able to pick up a variety of frequencies or channels but not all at once. We set it to pick up a certain channel... each of our brains is a channel allowing us a measure of consciousness. We normally receive only what is necessary to our own channel. The other channels (other brains/people) are out there at all times and we are connected to all that information (sub or supra-consciousness) but cannot experience it in total --not normally because we are physical.

I do think we can switch channels or frequencies and it happens in deep meditation and in dreams and sometimes when we are being creative. At those times we can tap into the wider field of frequency (deeper levels of consciousness), bring some of it back. The field is always there.

When we die, only our particular channel/brain goes out. And I think at that time we are just in the greater field (deeper consciousness levels).

I have no clue as to whether or not the "mind" exists outside of the brain. I suspect it does, but I can't really "prove" it. Thankfully -- I don't have to. I can enjoy speculation as to the ultimate purpose of the human brain as biologic receiver designed to tune in to the frequency of "me." I can theorize at length as to the location of my thoughts as I do so, but getting locked down over it all seems so counterproductive. If certainty is the elimination of "wrongness" it is also the hobgoblin of novelty. It's really no different than cooking, making love or writing music; you cast out your net, and hope for a little nibble on the return.... Getting caught up in some narrowly focused reality tunnel, and calling it "truth" -- while comforting to the robot -- is also extremely self-limiting. It is only in the big mistakes that we begin to approach the self in it's truest form and transcend it. I like to approach the quanta the same way I approach everything I enjoy in this universe: in large gulps, until I'm full and no further.

How else can you catch the ocean in a thimble?

reply to post by GrandKitaro777



I would assume that the brain is just a holder or container for our consciousness while we are in this existence and or life.

If people believe in a great creator or consciousness, then it must exist beyond the borders and boundries of the human physical brain, therefore because of that, it allows it to be possible for that to occur elsewhere in the universe.

If it can be done on a huge grand scale we can't comprehend ( creation), then it can happen on the smallest of scales in comparison ( Our reality for example ) .


So to me, yes it definitely is. And we need to understand this before we venture out an try to find life elsewhere.

We probably already found it , but can't recognize it for what it is.

There could be places in the universe where the beings that have consciousness are nothing like us but function perfectly for there specific life experience.


I'm talking like whole suns and planets and the like being conscious and being alive i guess you would call it.


There are Stars that in comparison makes our sun but a pixel on this web page......Think about the possibilities within those worlds and what could have happened out of random occurance.

The Brain is a door way Buddha teachings follow this path....

I think if it can exist outside of the brain you will not know about it. Everything we are is electrical impulses interpreted by the brain. We make our reality up as we go, with out that input of signals we can not be who we are... but whos to say the very thing that is conciseness will exist, and whos to say we cant somehow observe from it. Maybe when you die you enter a new reality with out a body and start all over again. Maybe you become like a baby when you enter into a new world where you have no inputs just pure consciousness. No sense of time no sense of body you just "are"... be kinda confusing actually. There would obviously be no materialistic viewpoints because at that state material objects dont exist for you, cool to think about... I have to do that and get back to this thread.

Consciousness is awareness of physical surroundings, as opposed to unconsciousness which is being unaware of one's surroundings. But even in dreams we can be conscious so there seems to be some type of "mind". But if dreams are merely the stored impressions of waking life, perhaps the mind is not entirely outside the body. If anything, the "self" is what is outside the body, since yourself controls the body, but in the case of sickness the body affects the self. I think the mind/self should be seen as a process by which it becomes aware of sickness or health. Same with consciousness. Buddhism believes that consciousness is a string of connected moments with no real eternal structure to it. But what is considered eternal is the absence of suffering once nirvana is reached. Maybe this only refers to death, which would mean that death is the release of suffering, and life is defined more than anything else as suffering, which seems self evident since every being suffers, otherwise it is essenceless matter. What is the truth? I dont know, maybe that is the truth, ignorance is the only truth? Seems depressing but no one expects the truth to be merry and joyous. Maybe all we can do is be happy while alive, but how when this happiness is fleeting? And if you know you are lying to yourself how can that make one happy? Who knows...

reply to post by LifENcircleS


You bring up an interesting point. Monks still die because aging is caused by cellular decay. But they are known still for doing amazing things with the mind.

Corporeal consciousness is the process of the brain uploading - from a vetted data stream that balances external stimuli, internally generated translation of that stimuli (including weighting data clusters on behalf of the survival needs of the corporeal whole), internally generated planning and analysis of a larger focus, and the specifics that are required to link one instance of ongoing reality perception to the last - into the short term memory circuitry.

There was a research finding in 2008 - ( www.nature.com... ) - that indicated that the conscious mind's experience of decision lags the brain's initiation of that decision by up to 7 seconds. Some consider this to be proof of predetermination, but when wedded to my own research, it suggests that the actual experience of corporeal awareness originates between the cognitive vetting process and the short term memory's storage of that cognition for future usage. And it makes perfect sense when one considers that conscious awareness is the primary level of survival defense and initiation. Truth is, that damage to the short term memory section of the brain will generally result in the inability of the individual to establish a sense of reality continuity - with conscious awareness a jumble of fleeting impressions that never coalesce into a usable sense of self.

Post-corporeal consciousness would necessarily involve the lifting of the mind's point of perspective from the brain's short term memory data stream, and placing within the informational whole that exists and has been in constant development since the brain itself launched its first directive data configuration as a processing/transmission center for the body's DNA protocols and their role in managing the complicated arrangement of assemblies and sub-assemblies, as well as the umbrella management of the body's effort to survive its own environment's subsistence/competition challenges. Freed of the corporeal survival effort, what's emerged as authored information (not the memory's residual representation, mind you) is now free to focus exclusively on matter of its own existence and progressive development.

Only issue is that this freed "mind" has no unique information acquisition functionality. Not like the corporeal brain that created it as the natural byproduct of its own survive-thrive enterprise. This unique and isolated mass of human consciousness can only ruminate and reconfigure what it left the brain's generation process in possession of. And that's all it'll ever have to work with. Still, most minds have a wealth of information and experience burst configuration to rely on, and access/reconfiguration issues aren't clouded by dulled neural net structures or belligerent cognitive filters, in the same way that these plague the process of corporeal conscious awareness. The access is virtually instantaneous. Then again, there are a lot of really fast thinkers who can't put an accurate assessment together, so what good is speed if you don't know where you're going?

This may seem counterintuitive, but there's very strong evidential linkage between this overview and what's been well established concerning brain functionality and the resulting manifestation of human consciousness.

reply to post by GrandKitaro777

I believe that our soul exists in a hyperdimensional light-universe and is connected to our body. I believe this because I am too afraid and too proud to admit that death is the end of a person.

Our aversion to the reality of death is a sign that we should fight it, not run. Turning to faiths which give us eternal life is blind running, pure and simple. This monster controls us. But when you boil all of this away, the question is: How do we deal with death anxiety, EFFECTIVELY?

Google Cognitive Dissonance, here:
en.wikipedia.org ...

...The diagram to the right shows a new cognition being integrated into a person's belief system to resolve such a conflict. An example of this would be the conflict between wanting to smoke and knowing that smoking is unhealthy; a person may try to change their feelings about the odds that they will actually suffer the consequences, or they might add the consonant element that the smoking is worth short term benefits.

Now, change that quote to this and it's not much different, is it?

...The diagram to the right shows a new cognition being integrated into a person's belief system to resolve such a conflict. An example of this would be the conflict between wanting to live and knowing that dying is the end; a person may try to change their feelings about the odds that they will actually suffer the consequences, or they might add the consonant element that the living is worth short term benefits.

We integrate ideas of eternal life and hedonistic living to compensate for the conflict in our mind between wanting to live and knowing that death is the end of it. More admirable is when we give ourselves to a cause much larger to ourselves. So large is it that we lose a sense of self; this cause will long outlast us. Examples: children, science, society, etc. These're still examples of integrating things into our belief system to make conflicts more acceptable, however. But I think they're more respectable than anything else we could do, short of actually finding out that we DON'T die - which requires empirical proof. Since we don't have empirical proof, ...

Which leads to the possibility of someday being a sort of hive-mind. If we were all truly "respectable" we would be selfless. It seems to me that if we weren't "selfish" we would become communists, but the establishment of communism is threatened by any sense of self. How could we eliminate all strands of self from people? Seems impossible. So, more likely, erecting socialist principles is the end result. Or maybe midway between them.

Is it possible there could be societies based on hedonistic things or religious things, as opposed to respected things? In a religious world, they deal with death anxiety by creating eternal life. In hedonistic societies, they deal with death anxiety by focusing on pleasures or even more perverse things like necromancy (death is seen as pleasurable). Unsure. It could be that we'll never have any extremes. Extremes, by their nature, are more rare.

But anyway... Heaven is a long ways off because...

We live in a world of death and destruction. We're adapted to it. We could not live in a world without these things. We can't even imagine a world without these things.

Originally posted by andy1033
I believe your mind is outside your brain, and your brain is a receiver and transmitter. So like the governments already know, you just use your brain to access your mind, lol. If you get what i mean.

Just read up on the brain, and all it is is just a receiver, or transmitter.

Well said.

More of a transcoder between realms. In this realm space is the primary constriction. On the other side time is the primary constriction. While dwelling in the spatial realm, there is nothing we can do about the impact that time has through it. While dwelling in the time realm, there is nothing we can do about the presence that space has encompassing it.

The condition of the brain determines how the consciousness transposes between sides.