New FDR Decode

Originally posted by tomk52
I don't know the answer to that question.

Why don't you provide your answer.
WITH DOCUMENTATION.

yawn. Posted on the last page.

For anyone who needs documentation that the FDR system was updated due to a change in regulation in 1997, a regulation which also caused the revision to the data frame layout provided by Turbofan, please see here.

pilotsfor911truth.org...

n late 1997 the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) adopted a change requiring an increase in the number of recorded signals for flight data recorders (FDR). This rule change will affect many airplanes that operate under FAA rules, including all airplanes registered in the United States and those in other countries where regulatory authorities use the FAA rules as their own. Boeing is prepared to help operators meet the requirements of the rule change by its effective date, which varies according to each airplane's date of manufacture.



Boeing models 707, 727, 737-100/-200/-300/-400/-500, 757, 767, 747-100/-200/-300/-400, 777-200/-300, DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, and MD-90 will require retrofit activity. This may involve the addition of new sensors and wiring plus installation of a DFDAU, software, or both because of a new FDR frame. The details of the Boeing plan to support the airplanes listed below are discussed in "Rule Change Support Plan".

For those who would like to see the previous 11 flights, all of which were relatively short legs according to Warren, being discussed by real pilots who are verified, please see here.

pilotsfor911truth.org...

For those who claim the cockpit door sensor was not required equipment (ie. a "no-go" item on the 757), please see apathoid/767Doctor reply here.

forums.randi.org...

...a bad cockpit door switch, even pre-9/11, was likely a "no-go" item for flight. Its sole purpose is NOT to provide a record for the FDR, its to warn the pilots if the door is ajar by providing an amber message on the engine display.

For those who claim FLT DECK DOOR was an available parameter on the FDR, but not sensing anything, Please see Turbofan's post here,

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If the parameter port were grounded due to inoperative system. it would not be labeled as FLT DECK DOOR. It would be labeled as "spare" and we wouldn't even be able to see it as observed in the UA93 data (there is no FLT DECK DOOR parameter on UA93).

@767Doctor/apathoid,

...so we can safely say that the flight profile before impact was beyond the 757 air data certification range.

How can the pitot-static system be operating "beyond its certification range" when the aircraft data shows only .70M-.72M and the aircraft is certified for .86M? Do you also believe such mach numbers are above Mcrit for a 757 as does Ryan Mackey?

This one post takes care of every single excuse made by those who wish to hold onto their support of the govt story.

The rest of your post I didn't bother to read. Sorry Tom, but my threshold for dealing with the ignorant and belligerent has been exceeded. Enjoy your Sunday.

Two pages of rhetoric and still no evidence presented indicating that the parameter was added and functioning. Perhaps that is because they don't have any.

reply to post by 911files


While TomK get his kicks trying to figure out the meaning of my posts,
and whether or not my eyesight needs checking, I will remind him that
I apologized for thinking the acronym ASI originally said VSI.

TomK still has about five major errors to forgive us for including all of the
assumptions he has made without having a shred of documentation. I will
also remind him we are contacting 757 mechanics to verify the operation
of the switch and possibly get a MFG and model of the switch...as the
manual does not contain such information....nor is it really important.

Is it going to change your mind if Honeywell makes the switch, over Rockwell?

John Farmer, I already PROVED to you in many ways that the flight deck
door was recorded.

#1. It's in the FDR file.

#2. The door switch has an assignment in the Boeing documentation
along with assigned logic states.

#3. All parameters in the FDR file update. Can you find an example of
a parameter in the FDR file that is just hanging around taking up memory
space?

Originally posted by turbofan
John Farmer, I already PROVED to you in many ways that the flight deck
door was recorded.

#1. It's in the FDR file.

#2. The door switch has an assignment in the Boeing documentation
along with assigned logic states.

#3. All parameters in the FDR file update. Can you find an example of
a parameter in the FDR file that is just hanging around taking up memory
space?

sigh....

Let me guess, 911Files is still crying, "give me proof!", after we have supplied it for several pages.

Clearly 911Files doesn't have a clue regarding the difference of a Data Acquisition Unit vs a Recorder.

Hey 911Files,

apathoid and TF already explained it to you!

How exactly does a RECORDER record a parameter off the DFDAU if there is no wire to the recorder from the DFDAU for that parameter?

Answer - It doesn't.

See UA93 data vs AA77 data.

(wow, is Farmer thick or what?)

[edit on 29-11-2009 by R_Mackey]

Originally posted by R_Mackey


sigh....

Let me guess, 911Files is still crying, "give me proof!", after we have supplied it for several pages.

What do YOU care what John posts? You have him "on ignore." We all know the REAL reason for this. He is a thorn in your side. John has refuted almost all of your claims. He has shown your PFT club to be a joke.

Heck, I would ignore him too! Your best bet would be to stay at your PFT headquarters and milk whatever members there for what they will give you. ATS members tend to be a little more skeptical to your failed ideas. (have you noticed the lack of support you have received in this thread?)

Hey 911Files,

Why post to him when you wont be able to read his response? Oh, wait, you ignore ALL posts that show your failures.

(wow, is Farmer thick or what?)

Hmmm... I am predicting the next Balsamo name will be......

J_Farmer ????

Originally posted by tomk52

Originally posted by turbofan

As Mr. Balsamo stated earlier, it's very common and logical to accept the fact that pilots do not leave the flight deck during short

Thanks, TF, for confirming what we all knew: That Robby Balsamo is the troll "faux R_Mackey".

You guys ain't the sharpest knives in the drawer, are ya??

TomK

What are you talking about? Please see here:

pilotsfor911truth.org...

Moderators can we give this guy a suspension for continuous slander?

I've been correcting his posts for several pages as he continues to spin
the meaning of my words. This is certainly against policy!



[edit on 29-11-2009 by turbofan]

Originally posted by 767doctor
Yeah because the ASI and the VSI are the same gauge, so it's just a spelling mistake....yeahh...thats it!

Already explained, see post on page 41.

The standby ASI/ALT steam gauges are independent of the ADC and there is no Standby VSI.

I'm full aware that standby devices are independent of the ADC! Read
previous post on page 41!

Assuming you didn't mangle what he actually said - you're both wrong. The altimeter, of course, doesn't measure anything; it displays a measurement.

Already explained in a previous post. The gauge displays the value
provided by the ADC. Please read history before assuming otherwise.

And its not measured by an electric sensor. The only thing electric in a static port is the heater. There is no such thing as electric altimetry/airspeed sensor(at least as far as Boeing airliners are concerned), and please don't tell me the ADC is a sensor.

Really no sensor in the port? The ADC measures PA how then?

It uses an electric pressure sensor does it not? The ADC converts the ambient
pressure into electric signals (voltages) via the sensor to indicate altitude.

If the sensor is not located in a static port, then where?

The heater is there to prevent icing as far as I'm aware.

What is an absolute pressure sensor? Can we stick to standard aviation verbage, please? If you mean, ambient pressure sensor, that would be a static port. So what exactly did he get wrong?

Initially TomK thought the PA values in the FDR were provided by an
aneroid type standby altimeter. THat is wrong.

An ambient pressure sensor is a static port?

Do you mean the Ambient pressure sensor is located in/reads from the static port?


[edit on 29-11-2009 by turbofan]

Originally posted by R_Mackey
Read this statement again from apathiod.

Its up to the airlines if they want to record other params. The vast majority are just open, not wired to the systems that they are supposed to record.

Again I ask Tom, why does UA93 data not show a FLT DECK DOOR parameter, and AA77 does?

Is it because the DFDAU and DFL is airline specific? If so, please provide documentation.

The rest of your post is nothing but personal attacks as usual, and yes, I'm seriously quoting apathoid. Answer the questions.

Perhaps "767Doctor" can answer it himself? Tom has a problem with concession.

side note: Tom, are you really a boss? Wow, I feel sorry for your subordinates. High turn over rate perhaps? Care to give us your full name so we can see who supports you as does Balsamo?

[edit on 29-11-2009 by R_Mackey]

1. It's not just the FDR and FDAU, but you need to make sure you decoded the raw .fdr files from UA93 and AA77 with the same version frame layouts. It's my understanding from what Mr. Farmer has stated, only the latest data frame layouts will give you the "FLT DECK DOOR UNLOCKED" parameter in the frame where it was added in 1997. Did PfT decode both FDR's with the same frame layouts?

2. Even though UA93 was a newer airplane than AA77, it's very possible it was using an older model FDAU, which doesn't support the parameter in question. Unfortunately, all I can do is speculate, but I know that FDAU's and FDR's tend to be quite interchangeable.

On edit: A brief search indicates that AA77 and UA93 had different model FDR's, thus different model FDAU's. At this point, its an apple and oranges comparison)

3. Effectivity: maybe UA had a different configuration flight deck door which didn't provide an EICAS message, only a warning light. The wiring for the parameter, if I'm not mistaken, is from the EICAS computer rack to the FDAU.


Now, I see PfT are making it their official position that cockpit doors are never opened on "short flights". Apparently since N644AA has transcon flights on record, in which an operable door switch never registered a door opening once, a "short flight" is one that is about 5 hours or less.

Nevermind for a minute that the cockpit door security pre-9/11 and post-9/11 are two different matters completely, is PfT making this their official position of post-9/11 cockpit security? Remember Rob, I have access to all Flight Ops SOPs too...


As for this:

How can the pitot-static system be operating "beyond its certification range" when the aircraft data shows only .70M-.72M and the aircraft is certified for .86M? Do you also believe such mach numbers are above Mcrit for a 757 as does Ryan Mackey?

I'm no talking about airframe certification; I would have thought that was obvious. I'm talking about the air data systems certification range. Fortunately, this may be something I can confirm as I have Boeing reps available at my workplace, as well as the ADC maintenance manual, and its testing procedures(static and pitot ranges, delta-p limits). More to come...

[edit on 29-11-2009 by 767doctor]

[edit on 29-11-2009 by 767doctor]

Originally posted by turbofan
reply to post by 911files

 

John Farmer, I already PROVED to you in many ways that the flight deck
door was recorded.

#1. It's in the FDR file.

No it is not. A binary value of 0 is the fdr file. Software used by P4T and developed by Warren interprets that particular bit as associated with that parameter based on a 1997 frame layout.

#2. The door switch has an assignment in the Boeing documentation along with assigned logic states.

Yes, in the 1997 documentation. The plane was built in 1991 and the parameter was not used until 1997. No, the 757-3 frame layout is specific, binary 0 = CLOSED. If nothing is being recorded for that parameter, the field will by default be 0.

#3. All parameters in the FDR file update. Can you find an example of a parameter in the FDR file that is just hanging around taking up memory
space?

No, you showed that the FDR was upgraded, not that the wiring was to include this parameter. You have also not shown that it is an FAA required parameter. Why would AA (or Boeing) spend money rewiring a plane for a parameter not required? And yes I can, FLT DECK DOOR in 42 hours of flight operation did not once register a binary 1 (a signal). Any reasonable person knows that in 4-5 hours of flight, either the CPT or F/O went to the bathroom, got a drink or something to eat. There should be in 42 hours at least one incident of the door opening if the parameter was being used.

The burden of proof is not on me. You guys at P4T are the ones making the assertions. Now prove them.

[edit on 29-11-2009 by 911files]

Originally posted by turbofan

Originally posted by 767doctor
Yeah because the ASI and the VSI are the same gauge, so it's just a spelling mistake....yeahh...thats it!

Already explained, see post on page 41.

The standby ASI/ALT steam gauges are independent of the ADC and there is no Standby VSI.

I'm full aware that standby devices are independent of the ADC! Read
previous post on page 41!

Assuming you didn't mangle what he actually said - you're both wrong. The altimeter, of course, doesn't measure anything; it displays a measurement.

Already explained in a previous post. The gauge displays the value
provided by the ADC. Please read history before assuming otherwise.

And its not measured by an electric sensor. The only thing electric in a static port is the heater. There is no such thing as electric altimetry/airspeed sensor(at least as far as Boeing airliners are concerned), and please don't tell me the ADC is a sensor.

Really no sensor in the port? The ADC measures PA how then?

It uses an electric pressure sensor does it not? The ADC converts the ambient
pressure into electric signals (voltages) via the sensor to indicate altitude.

If the sensor is not located in a static port, then where?

The heater is there to prevent icing as far as I'm aware.

What is an absolute pressure sensor? Can we stick to standard aviation verbage, please? If you mean, ambient pressure sensor, that would be a static port. So what exactly did he get wrong?

Initially TomK thought the PA values in the FDR were provided by an
aneroid type standby altimeter. THat is wrong.

An ambient pressure sensor is a static port?

Do you mean the Ambient pressure sensor is located in/reads from the static port?


[edit on 29-11-2009 by turbofan]

You're probably confusing the AoA vane with the static port. Yes, the pitot and static ports on the B757/B767 are purely pneumatic. The heater coils in both are the only electrical connections. I don't like repeating myself. You stand corrected. You can google this until your fingers bleed, and cherry pick to your hearts delight - but that won't change the fact that you are wrong....again.

The ADC measures altitude from the static port via a plumbing line which turns into a quick-disconnect flex hose. A transducer inside the ADC changes the pressure(vacuum pressure in the case of static) into and electricl signal which gets conditioning and sent to the display gauges and FDAU.

Originally posted by 767doctor

You're probably confusing the AoA vane with the static port. Yes, the pitot and static ports on the B757/B767 are purely pneumatic.

No, I'm not confusing Angle of Attack with static port.

The heater coils in both are the only electrical connections. I don't like repeating myself. You stand corrected. You can google this until your fingers bleed, and cherry pick to your hearts delight - but that won't change the fact that you are wrong....again.

Read up, "Doctor". How you convert "pneumatic" to values displayed
on the screen [CDU, or monitor?] for PA?

The ADC measures altitude from the static port via a plumbing line which turns into a quick-disconnect flex hose. A transducer inside the ADC changes the pressure(vacuum pressure in the case of static) into and electricl signal which gets conditioning and sent to the display gauges and FDAU.

Well, call me silly...but...uh, isn't that exactly what I said above?

You said I stand corrected, but you explained that a transducer (sensor)
changes pressure into electric signals so the ADC can convert that into
something human pilots can interpret on their screen.

Wow. Semantic city tonight!

Originally posted by ImAPepper

"Rob" Mackey always goes into personal attacks and rants when he can't keep up. Just like CPT Bob does. Over the years I've learned to just yawn and smile knowing that I am getting to him. He loves me ya know.

Originally posted by turbofan

Originally posted by 767doctor

You're probably confusing the AoA vane with the static port. Yes, the pitot and static ports on the B757/B767 are purely pneumatic.

No, I'm not confusing Angle of Attack with static port.

The heater coils in both are the only electrical connections. I don't like repeating myself. You stand corrected. You can google this until your fingers bleed, and cherry pick to your hearts delight - but that won't change the fact that you are wrong....again.

Read up, "Doctor". How you convert "pneumatic" to values displayed
on the screen [CDU, or monitor?] for PA?

The ADC measures altitude from the static port via a plumbing line which turns into a quick-disconnect flex hose. A transducer inside the ADC changes the pressure(vacuum pressure in the case of static) into and electricl signal which gets conditioning and sent to the display gauges and FDAU.

Well, call me silly...but...uh, isn't that exactly what I said above?

You said I stand corrected, but you explained that a transducer (sensor)
changes pressure into electric signals so the ADC can convert that into
something human pilots can interpret on their screen.

Wow. Semantic city tonight!

Semantics, no. The problem is you have no idea what we are talking about. It would be easier to say "ya, you're right, I effed up". You obviously do not understand the concept of what a transducer is and what a sensor is. By your logic, PA is measured inside the ADC...why have a static port then?

Really no sensor in the port? The ADC measures PA how then?

It uses an electric pressure sensor does it not? The ADC converts the ambient
pressure into electric signals (voltages) via the sensor to indicate altitude.
If the sensor is not located in a static port, then where?

[edit on 29-11-2009 by 767doctor]

[edit on 29-11-2009 by 767doctor]

reply to post by 767doctor


Umm no. I admit when I'm wrong (see apology for ASI) and I'll keep telling you when you're wrong.

Semantics, no. The problem is you have no idea what we are talking about. It would be easier to say "ya, you're right, I effed up". You obviously do not understand the concept of what a transducer is and what a sensor is. By your logic, PA is measured inside the ADC...why have a static port then?

A pressure transducer is a SENSOR, or a SWITCH. See here, "doctor"

www.omega.com...


www.directindustry.com...

No, I'm not saying the ADC measures pressure within. I'm saying the
sensor is connected to the static port. The sensor has a wire connected
to the ADC.

The ADC takes the electric signals on the wires and processes them.
The ADC sends information to a monitor for the pilot to read.

Now, you can tell me there's a flex line coming off the static port.
That's fine. THe point is, there's an ELECTRIC SENSOR converting
pressure to voltage.



[edit on 29-11-2009 by turbofan]

Originally posted by 767doctor
1. It's not just the FDR and FDAU, but you need to make sure you decoded the raw .fdr files from UA93 and AA77 with the same version frame layouts. It's my understanding from what Mr. Farmer has stated, only the latest data frame layouts will give you the "FLT DECK DOOR UNLOCKED" parameter in the frame where it was added in 1997. Did PfT decode both FDR's with the same frame layouts?

The documentation was provided above. The 1997 regulation and therefore amendment in DFL applies to all 757's DFDAU. As you correctly pointed out, if a parameter is not used, its just left open from the DFDAU and not connected to any recorder. Therefore it will not be recorded on the FDR as seen on the UA93 data, UA93 NTSB pdf's, etc. (FLT DECK DOOR is not there), but it is displayed on the AA77 data and pdf's.

Perhaps you wish to offer the theory that the FLT DECK DOOR parameter was grounded at the DFDAU port and hooked up the the DFDR to waste memory on AA77 DFDR? Care to sign your name and credentials to such a theory?

Now, I see PfT are making it their official position that cockpit doors are never opened on "short flights".

Provide a quote where P4T says doors are "NEVER" opened on short flights or admit you prefer to use strawman arguments. I want to see a direct quote from P4T with the word "NEVER".

Apparently since N644AA has transcon flights on record, in which an operable door switch never registered a door opening once, a "short flight" is one that is about 5 hours or less.

4.5 or less according to Warren Stutt. But your attempt to stretch the truth towards your extreme bias noted.

I'm no talking about airframe certification; I would have thought that was obvious. I'm talking about the air data systems certification range.

So, air data is certified to less than what the airframe is certified? Especially at more than .16M less than the airframe? Hmmm, really. Care to put your name behind such a statement?

Your other points you admit are pure speculation, so I won't bother to address them.

[edit on 29-11-2009 by R_Mackey]

Originally posted by R_Mackey
Care to put your name behind such a statement?

767Doctor.. Yes put your name behind it.... Use Ryan Mackey's name!!! Oh, wait... someone already took that one!

Originally posted by turbofan
reply to post by 767doctor

 

Umm no. I admit when I'm wrong (see apology for ASI) and I'll keep telling you when you're wrong.

A pressure transducer is a SENSOR, or a SWITCH. See here, "doctor"

www.omega.com...


www.directindustry.com...

No, I'm not saying the ADC measures pressure within. I'm saying the
sensor is connected to the static port. The sensor has a wire connected
to the ADC.

The ADC takes the electric signals on the wires and processes them.
The ADC sends information to a monitor for the pilot to read.

Now, you can tell me there's a flex line coming off the static port.
That's fine. THe point is, there's an ELECTRIC SENSOR converting
pressure to voltage.

No, you're still wrong. The sensor is the static port; a transducer converts one form of signal to another(pressure to electrical signal). Two different concepts, skippy.

What you intially said, and are still saying is that there is some electrcal signal originating outside the ADC. YOU ARE WRONG. It's all pneumatic outside the ADC, inside is where the pressure gets converted to an electrical value. Thus the measurement of PA comes outside the ADC. ADC's are not required to display airspeed and altitude, see the standby airspeed/altimeter. Now, try to measure PA without a static port...

[edit on 29-11-2009 by 767doctor]

reply to post by ImAPepper


I wish "doctor" would put his name behind his claims. I'm telling a self
proclaimed 'aircraft mechanic' that a transducer is a sensor!

Kinda makes me wonder if he's still playing semantics, or doesn't know
that an electric transducer is a device also known as a sensor.

Originally posted by turbofan
I wish "doctor" would put his name behind his claims. I'm telling a self
proclaimed 'aircraft mechanic' that a transducer is a sensor!

Comedy gold, a guy named turbofan calling out someone's identity when we have "Rob" Mackey posting in here as an "expert" under someone else's name without their consent. You guys crack me up.

I said(and you missed some relevant stuff, I'm not surprised):

I'm no talking about airframe certification; I would have thought that was obvious. I'm talking about the air data systems certification range.

You replied:

So, air data is certified to less than what the airframe is certified? Especially at more than .16M less than the airframe? Hmmm, really. Care to put your name behind such a statement?

Why do you guys always mangle what other people are saying? I said a range of speed and altitude. I've already alluded to what I meant specically(delta-p between pitot and static). I test and the air data systems on these airplanes and in all my tests, I've never tested accuracy for high speed/low altitude flight or low speed, high altitude flight. There reason for that is....the air data system is not designed for that flight regime.

To summarize..again..I'm talking about both pitot and static(airspeed and altitude, for the aviation illiterates), specifically the difference in those pressures.