Jupiter's Moon Europa Has Enough Oxygen For Life

reply to post by Southern Guardian

Earth's oceans are 5-6 miles deep at the most. Since Europa is smaller (22% of Earth's size as you posted) the depth would need to be greater to equal that of Earth's water volume. I think a conservative estimate would be around 25 miles deep so you could double or even triple this number and still have room left over for a solid surface under the ocean, liquid rock under that and even a solid core if you like.

reply to post by eyeswilldeceive

Photosynthesis does not create oxygen it removes carbon atoms from CO and CO2. Oxygen is a by product of Stellar fusion. Water has oxygen in it, remember H2O? So the question of "whether enough oxygen reaches the ocean" from the OP's link (PHYS ORG) makes no sense at all. Water contains oxygen in case they forgot. The question is, "does the moon have a means to separate water molecules?"

[edit on 10/19/2009 by Devino]

Originally posted by Devino
reply to post by eyeswilldeceive

 

Photosynthesis does not create oxygen it removes carbon atoms from CO and CO2. Oxygen is a by product of Stellar fusion. Water has oxygen in it, remember H2O? So the question of "whether enough oxygen reaches the ocean" from the OP's link (PHYS ORG) makes no sense at all. Water contains oxygen in case they forgot. The question is, "does the moon have a means to separate water molecules?"

[edit on 10/19/2009 by Devino]

Yes -- but even the "free oxygen" (oxygen not molecular bound up in H2O) in our oceans was not put there by "separating water molecules" -- it was put there mostly through the photosynthesis of phytoplankton.

As far as I know, there is no large-scale natural form of electrolysis that can separate out the oxygen from water taking place in the oceans of the Earth or Europa. Any free oxygen would need to get there by some other process. In the case of Earth, that process is primarily photosynthesis. In the case of Europa, that process is cosmic rays hitting the ice near the surface of the moon creating oxidizers in the water ice.

It is THAT oxygen freed up by the oxidizers that would somehow need to get absorbed into the ocean.

Therefore your question of "does the moon have a means to separate water molecules?" already has already been answered -- the answer is "cosmic rays creating oxidizers". The question of "whether enough of that free oxygen reaches the ocean" is still very valid.


[edit on 10/19/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

reply to post by Aquarius1

Star and Flag for the good article.

The lake the other poster mentioned in Antarctica is Lake Vostok.

Another source of water off earth is an asteroid called Ceres,
the biggest one in the Asteroid belt.

Ceres may hold as much water as Earth

To think that our best telescopes can only see 15 billion light years,
but what if the universe keeps going beyond that...

Thank you all so much for your imput, articles and links and your personal take from your own reseach, learning a lot and also a special thanks to "constantwonder" for his graciousness.

Keep them coming.

[edit on 19-10-2009 by Aquarius1]

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
Yes -- but even the "free oxygen" (oxygen not molecular bound up in H2O) in our oceans was not put there by "separating water molecules" -- it was put there mostly through the photosynthesis of phytoplankton.

That is purely speculation at this point since none of us were here on Earth at the time. We do know that photosynthesis does separate carbon from oxygen and that there is more than one way to "separate" oxygen atoms from water molecules. Exactly how this originally happened here on Earth is something we do not know.

The word "oxidation" is what we want to look at. This happens when water meets iron, it creates iron oxide separating the hydrogen atoms from H2O and binding oxygen to iron by sharing electrons. The oxygen in iron oxide can be separated with heat, like volcanic activity. Atomic separation of water also happens during the discharge of electrical energy which Jupiter has plenty of. It is quite obvious that the Sun is not the only source of energy for Europa or any of the other moons for that matter.

Here is a trivia question, "Does water expand or contract as it cools and freezes?"

Water expands as it freezes which can cause pipes to rupture, but why?

It's the gas bubbles inside that are forced out as water crystallizes. The gas expands due to the lack of pressure from the water turning into ice. So I guess the question is, "Is there evidence of ice expansion on Europa?"
If the water in the fractures on Europa is expanding as it freezes then that means there is some kind of gas within the water, possibly oxygen.

ADD:

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
In the case of Europa, that process is cosmic rays hitting the ice near the surface of the moon creating oxidizers in the water ice.

It is THAT oxygen freed up by the oxidizers that would somehow need to get absorbed into the ocean.

This is the sort of thinking that is the cause for why NASA is wrong yet again with their estimates. Not just a little bit wrong but way off the chart wrong.

New research suggests that there may be plenty of oxygen available in that ocean to support life, a hundred times more oxygen than previously estimated.

[edit on 10/20/2009 by Devino]

Originally posted by Devino
...That is purely speculation at this point since none of us were here on Earth at the time. We do know that photosynthesis does separate carbon from oxygen and that there is more than one way to "separate" oxygen atoms from water molecules. Exactly how this originally happened here on Earth is something we do not know.

The word "oxidation" is what we want to look at. This happens when water meets iron, it creates iron oxide separating the hydrogen atoms from H2O and binding oxygen to iron by sharing electrons. The oxygen in iron oxide can be separated with heat, like volcanic activity. Atomic separation of water also happens during the discharge of electrical energy which Jupiter has plenty of. It is quite obvious that the Sun is not the only source of energy for Europa or any of the other moons for that matter.

Iron will not rust in pure water alone (at least not on a large scale). Pure oxygen is also required.

Water will act as an electrolyte, but it needs a catalyst -- pure oxygen -- to start move the oxidation process along. Therefore water AND pure oxygen (not bound up in H20) are required to make large amounts of iron oxide. The oxygen in H2O alone is probably not enough to have created the iron oxide that is ubiquitous today in the Earth's upper crust.

You may call it "pure speculation" that the photosynthesis of phytoplankton originally gave the Earth its oxygen, but it seems to be a pretty sound theory -- AND it explains the world's abundance of iron oxide....

...Our planet is iron-rich. The early oceans (3.5 billion years ago) were rich in PURE iron (NOT iron oxide), but very poor in pure oxygen -- in fact the Earth's atmosphere was also poor in pure oxygen (but rich in carbon dioxide). The pure iron in the oceans did not oxidize because of this lack of pure oxygen.

Then, as the theory goes, along came the phytoplankton. Phytoplankton require iron as a micronutrient (just like humans need minerals as micronutrients). The phytoplankton in the early pure-oxygen-poor oceans used the pure iron, the carbon dioxide in the air, and photosynthesis to create iron oxide and pure oxygen. The pure oxygen and the iron oxide was a by-product of the process. After several hundred million years of this process, the Earth was rich in pure oxygen, and most of the pure iron was converted to iron oxide.

Pure iron is very rare in the Earth's upper crust, but iron oxide can be found everywhere.

It is true that nobody was around 3.5 Billion years ago to confirm that's where the oxygen came from to make both the air we breathe AND rust, but the going theory about phytoplankton seems like a good one. One can never say they're 100% sure that's how it happened, but at the moment there is no reason to doubt it, either.

I would like to hear the other theories of how pure oxygen was produced that don't require phytoplankton.

Originally posted by Devino

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
In the case of Europa, that process is cosmic rays hitting the ice near the surface of the moon creating oxidizers in the water ice.

It is THAT oxygen freed up by the oxidizers that would somehow need to get absorbed into the ocean.

This is the sort of thinking that is the cause for why NASA is wrong yet again with their estimates. Not just a little bit wrong but way off the chart wrong.

New research suggests that there may be plenty of oxygen available in that ocean to support life, a hundred times more oxygen than previously estimated.

I just gave the one known method that pure oxygen can be given off on Europa (i.e., comic rays reacting with water ice). Obviously there could be other unknown methods, such as biological processes, that are creating this abundance of oxygen.

Oxygen is highly reactive and combines very easily to create other compounds. It would be highly unusual to find large amounts of pure oxygen just "being there" that wasn't produced as a by-product of some other process.

You seem to doubt the "cosmic ray/water reaction" method of pure oxygen production on Europa. Do you have another method in mind?


[edit on 10/20/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


There is a reaction between water and oxygen that creates rust that I don't fully understand. This electro-chemical reaction needs both water and oxygen to work which is electrolysis.

I do agree that the theory you presented for the production of Earth's oxygen does sound good but the fact is that this is just a guess and one I am beginning to doubt because of this thread.

So how do we know the Earth was oxygen poor at one time?

Oxygen is produced by stellar fusion but the process of separating it from molecular chains is through electrolysis. Electro-chemical reactions, electrical currents such as lightning and electro-magnetic energy.

The Solar wind (or cosmic ray) reaction theory for the production of oxygen is an electrical reaction or electrolysis. The Solar wind is made up of charged particles, ions, that interact with water or ice thus discharging its electricity and separating the water atoms. This is just one of the several ways that this can happen and the doubt in this process is not mine but comes from the evidence that there is possibly 100 times more oxygen then originally thought. I gathered from statements like this that the solar wind/cosmic ray theory is not holding up as the only cause.

If this evidence is true then it may also create doubt in the origin of Earth's oxygen.

ADD:

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
I would like to hear the other theories of how pure oxygen was produced that don't require phytoplankton.

I just gave the one known method that pure oxygen can be given off on Europa (i.e., comic rays reacting with water ice).

It seems you answered your own question. However, I would like to add that besides biological reactions such as photosynthesis and electrolysis due to charged particles from the Sun the planet Jupiter can be contributing to the production of pure oxygen. Jupiter is emitting a lot of EM radiation and this is effecting its moons, the question is how much.



[edit on 10/20/2009 by Devino]

How is it, that we can formulate all this info about Jupiter's moon, but can't even figure out if we have water on our moon.

Speculation indeed!

Originally posted by exposethosesecrets
How is it, that we can formulate all this info about Jupiter's moon, but can't even figure out if we have water on our moon.

Speculation indeed!

There's a difference between finding a puddle under some dust, and finding trillions of cubic tonnes of water. That's why.

Personally I think the difficulty in understanding what is going on in our solar system and the Universe resides in the inability to accept that space is electrically charged. It seems that every time I read about a discussion in astronomical phenomena this issue comes up. I understand it clearly as a reaction to the flow of electricity because of an electro-magnetic field.


Now, put aside any novelty for an electric Universe theory and take a look at what we do know.

1. Solar winds are electrical.
   
2. Galactic winds are electrical.
   
3. Solar flares are electrical.
   
4. Magnetic fields are products of rotating bodies in an electric field (& vice-versa).
   
5. The creation of free oxygen from H2O, CO and CO2 are because of electricity.
   
6. Photosynthesis creates sugars and oxygen that is also because of electricity.
   
7. PH, Electrolytes (or Cellular Osmosis) and Electrolysis are all electrical.
   

The cosmological explanation appears to always be wrong and the most complicated to understand. This reminds me so much of religion, before the bible was translated only the exalted ones could read it to the common people.
The cosmological language of the exalted ones is forbidden (not understandable by the common people), we must rely upon their interpretations to tell us what we see.

[edit on 10/20/2009 by Devino]

[edit on 10/20/2009 by Devino]

reply to post by Devino

The cosmological language of the exalted ones is forbidden (not understandable by the common people), we must rely upon their interpretations to tell us what we see.

Good analogy Devino, now what would we common people know about anything unless we have the exalted ones and scientists to tell us how it is.

Originally posted by Aquarius1
reply to post by Devino

 

The cosmological language of the exalted ones is forbidden (not understandable by the common people), we must rely upon their interpretations to tell us what we see.

Good analogy Devino, now what would we common people know about anything unless we have the exalted ones and scientists to tell us how it is.

I understand your statement as rhetorical so my reply is given in the nature that it was received. -in other words...Yeah, I hear ya...what would we do without all those smart people?

I would say that we can only understand The Universe around us by way of observations from our sensory perceptions. Sensory perceptions can be deceptive but we should not regard all of them as false and rely only on what others tell us is true.

[edit on 10/21/2009 by Devino]

Amazing how we know so much about Jupiters moon, and this presumable ocean, frozen landscape and atmosphere and yet our moon remains a mystery.
Our poor moon is so ignored... It's so close and yet we ignore it like an elephant in the room.

reply to post by keepureye2thesky


I am also curious why we don't know more about the moon and the fact that we haven't gone back, not into conspiracy but maybe we were told to stay away..

there may be enough OXYEN..but life requires other things to survive not just oxygen...the air we breathe contains other gasses...you need certain minerals to survive and altho europa has oxyen its probably lacking other substances....not to mention the super freezing temperatures there that are preventing anything from surviving...and the lack of a suitable atmosphere

Originally posted by Silicis n Volvo
there may be enough OXYEN..but life requires other things to survive not just oxygen...the air we breathe contains other gasses...you need certain minerals to survive and altho europa has oxyen its probably lacking other substances....not to mention the super freezing temperatures there that are preventing anything from surviving...and the lack of a suitable atmosphere

If the oceans are liquid water (albeit, this has not yet been fully confirmed), then the water is probably warm enough to support life.

If the friction caused by Jupiter's tidal forces are creating enough heat deep within Europa's mantle, enough of that heat may be transferred to the ocean to keep it relatively warm -- especially near the ocean bed.

It's comforting to know that they are trying to find new resources and what is or may be out there, problem is they are polluting space, the moon and mars, space junk is a not a good thing, of course they think nothing of polluting our planet and airspace so no big surprise here. If they do find something that we can use just how are they going to tap into it.