Dogfights with UFOs

Interesting videos 1-5
well put together doco

Ufo hunters on history channel




Ocker

I honestly don't blame the fighter pilots because that is their job, but their commanders really should make better orders, such as find out what it is, rather than just destroy it.

I remember seeing this episode when it came out, and enjoyed watching it again. I think the question asked at the end of the show is the most thought provoking, "what about the countless other fighter jet to UFO encounters that have never been reported or declassified." How many serious and extraordinary encounters have happened right over the skies in the US, between our air forces and UFOs? I would love to know.

Here is another great "UFO Dogfight" case, this one from 1949, commonly called the Gorman UFO Dogfight:

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Image of vintage 1948 comic strip depicting the Gorman incident courtesy of bluebookarchive.org


Image of 2nd Lt. George Gorman courtesy of nicap.org

2nd Lt. George Gorman of the North Dakota Air National Guard was 25 years old at the time of this incident and a veteran fighter pilot of World War Two. His job in the war was to train French student fighter pilots so it is unlikely that he mistook a balloon, Venus, or atmospheric phenomena for a UFO and then proceed to engage it. But things do happen sometimes so you never can be sure unless the facts show that an explanation is more likely than another. Also Gorman had no reason to lie as he was a well respected member of his community in Fargo, North Dakota, a business man, college educated, and a husband and father to a young daughter at the time. The following are some important facts noteworthy of Lieutenant Gorman:

• Full name was George F. Gorman
• Was 25 years old at time of incident
• Address at time of incident was Building 18, Federal Housing Project, Fargo, ND
• Occupation was manager of a construction company
• Was married with one child
• Education consisted of two and a half years of college for mechanical engineering and physics
• Military rank was 2nd Lieutenant
• Serial number was A0943873
• Assigned unit at time of incident was the North Dakota Air National Guard
• Number of years served in guard was two
• Served in World War Two
• World War Two assignment was pilot instructor for French military students

The following is a Project Sign(remember, Project Sign became Blue Book) “personal evaluation “ of Lt. Gorman. Information is courtesy of bluebookarchive.org.

2nd Lieutenant Gorman did not make the impression of being a dreamer. He reads little, and only serious literature. He spends 90% of his free time hunting and fishing; drinks less than moderately; smokes normally; and does not do drugs. He appears to be a sincere and serious individual who was considerably puzzled by his experience and made no attempt to blow his story up.

So it appears that Lt. Gorman has quite the credibility and even the USAF investigators had no reason to doubt his credibility and thus his story. The real question becomes what exactly was Gorman chasing that October night? With his large amount of experience and education it seems much more possible that Gorman did in fact become engaged with a truly unknown flying object in 1948.

The UFO Is Spotted
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Map showing location of Fargo, North Dakota indicated by black dot

On October 1st, 1948 2nd Lt. Gorman was flying a cross-country flight with other Air Guard planes, their aircrafts were the P-51 Mustang. At approximately 8:30 PM the flight arrived over Fargo, North Dakota, while the other pilots decided to land at Hector Airport in Fargo, Gorman decided to take advantage of the clear night to get some night flying time. At around 9:00PM his flight path took him over a football stadium where a game was being played, other then a small Piper Cub plane 500 feet below him the skies were empty, although apparently wouldn’t be for long.

After being advised by the control tower that the Piper, piloted by Dr. A.E. Cannon had taken to the air, Gorman prepared to land. About five minutes later he contacted the control tower asking if another plane was in the area. He was told no; Gorman reported back that another light, looking like the light on the tail of a plane had passed him on the right. Gorman radioed in that he was going to investigate the unknown object.


Image of Piper Cub courtesy of Wikipedia.org
UFO Versus P-51 Mustang

The ensuing dogfight lasted approximately 27 minutes and is the first reported “UFO-aircraft dogfight”. I will present this in a detailed timeline format for ease of reading and understanding. The following took place on the night of October 1st, 1948 in the sky over Fargo, North Dakota. All quotes are actual statements made by Gorman.The entire chase took place between the time frame of 9:00PM to 9:27PM with altitudes varying from 1,000 to 14,000 feet.

• 2nd Lieutenant Gorman pulls his P-51 up and reaches within 1,000 feet of the object.

"It was about six to eight inches in diameter, clear white, and completely round without fuzz at the edges [i.e., sharp and clear]," he said. "It was blinking on and off. As I approached, however, the light suddenly became steady and pulled into a sharp left bank. I thought it was making a pass at the tower.

• Gorman then performs a steep dive in chase of the object but cannot keep up even as he raised his manifold pressure.
• The object then gains altitude again and makes yet another left bank.
• Gorman puts his aircraft into a sharp turn to try and cut the “light” off at 7,000 feet.
• The unknown object then suddenly makes a sharp right turn directly towards Gorman’s plane.
• Just as they were going to collide Gorman pulls out and dives.
• The light passes over his canopy about 500 feet above him.
• The object then proceeded to make a left circle about 1,000 feet above him, Gorman gives chase again.
• Gorman cuts sharply towards the light to pursue it.
• The two craft (Gorman and UFO) take yet another head on collision course.
• The UFO breaks off as collision seemed imminent and takes a steep vertical climb.
• Gorman again attempts to chase but his plane power stalls out at 14,000 feet and is still over 2,000 feet from the still climbing object.
• The object is not seen again after this.

At times during this chase Gorman pushed his plane to its limit of speed and maneuverability, at times reaching speeds of 400MPH and blacking out once due to extreme G-forces . With all that the object still easily managed to out perform Gorman’s craft in every aspect. Also it is worthy of noting that the experienced Gorman was so shook up after the incident that he had to circle the airport twice before landing!


Image showing circa 1948 P-51 (F-51) Mustang courtesy of
nicap.org
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Image of actual newspaper showing story courtesy of bluebookarchive.org

Continued....


[edit on 10/18/2009 by jkrog08]

The Official Investigation

Witness Statements

This is another case with ground witness confirmation of the object as well as the pilot. Another added perk to this particular case is that another aircraft with two occupants also witnessed the event. The only thing this case doesn’t have is a radar contact, but beings that radar was a recently new invention at the time it was not as sensitive as today. Also it is commonly reported that UFOs exhibit stealth-like capabilities in both sensory and visual spectrums. Within a few hours Project Sign personal were at the scene. The following is a compilation of the witness reports:

Witnesses Information and Statements:

• Air traffic controller Lloyd D. Jensen:
-Age: 28 years old
-Address: 1423 6th Ave. South, Fargo, ND
-Occupation: Airport traffic controller at Fargo Airport (civilian)
-Marital Status: Married with one child
-Education: Two years of college
-Military-None
Evaluation of witness:

Mr. Jensen is exactly what his name implies- typical quiet, steady. Scandinavian type of individual. He seems very reliable, deliberate, and calculated in his observations. He is sober, does not smoke, use drugs, nor have any habits which could affect his normal way of thinking.

www.bluebookarchive.org...

Summary of interrogation by Project Sign:
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Courtesy of nicap.org

• Air traffic controller H.E. Johnson:
-Age: 34 years old
-Address: 1422 Broadway, Fargo, ND
-Occupation: Assistant aircraft traffic controller at Fargo Airport
-Marital Status: Married with no children
-Education: High School graduate
-Military: None
Evaluation of witness:

Mr. Johnson is approximately the same type as Mr. Jensen, stoical, quiet, Scandinavian type, not easily impressed, (un readable), smokes pipe only, has never used any habit forming drugs.

Summary of interrogation by Project Sign:

Mr. Johnson was on duty at the Fargo Airport tower since about 1600 hours (4:00PM) 1, October 1948, and was in the tower at the time the F-51 called in requesting information about local traffic. At the time when Lt. Gorman called the second time in regard to the object. Mr. Johnson walked to the rear of the receiver and, looking out the south window, saw the object and the Cub. Object at this time was a little higher than the Piper Cub, and outside of him, the object seemed to be on a north heading and then turned northwest.

www.nicap.org...

Other then mentioning that when Dr. L.N. Cannon landed his flight companion and he joined him on the south balcony and observed the object. Mr. Johnson had nothing more to add. The interrogating officer was Major Paul Kubala.

• Occupants of the Piper Cub(second aircraft): Pilot Dr. L.N. Cannon and passenger Einar Nielson
-Age: Was 66 years old
-Address: Newman’s Jewelry Store, Fargo ,ND
-Occupation: Dr. Cannon was an Eye, Ear, and Nose specialists (Occultist)
-Marital Status: Widower
-Education: Six years medical school
-Military: None
Evaluation of witness:

The doctor, in spite of his age, appeared to be highly alert, quick witted, and very capable. He took up flying two years ago and owns two aircraft today, flying them from the Fargo Flying Club, which is located south of Fargo. The doctor was not at all impressed with the occurrence of the night of 1 October, and seemed to be of the impression that a Canadian jet airplane may have come over and played tag with Lt. Gorman.

www.nicap.org...

Summary of Interrogation:
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Original source of image courtesy of nicap.org

Apparently Dr. Cannon’s passenger was not interviewed by the USAF. Although unofficial, Mr. Nelson corroborated the doctor’s statements. The interrogation of the doctor was also conducted by Major Kubala. It is interesting to note that all witnesses, including Gorman, reported no sound what so ever, no smoke or exhaust, no smell, nothing but a very fast moving light apparently only around 6-8 inches in diameter.

• Sworn statement from 2nd Lt. George F. Gorman on October 23rd, 1948:

I am convinced that there was definite thought behind its maneuvers. I am further convinced that the object was governed by the laws of inertia because its acceleration was rapid but not immediate and although it was able to turn fairly tight at considerable speed, it still followed a natural curve. When I attempted to turn with the object I blacked out temporarily due to excessive speed. I am in fairly good physical condition and I do not believe that there are many if any pilots who could withstand the turn and speed effected by the object, and remain conscious. The object was not only able to out turn and out speed my aircraft...but was able to attain a far steeper climb and was able to maintain a constant rate of climb far in excess of my aircraft.

en.wikipedia.org...

From a later conversation….

"I can tell you this much," he said, "because it's been mentioned in print. There was thought behind every move the light made. It wasn't any radar-responder gadget making it veer away from my ship."

"How do you know that?"

"Because it reacted differently at different times. If it had been a mechanical control, it would have turned or climbed the same way each time I got near it. Instead, it was as if some intelligent mind was directing every turn like a game of chess, and always one move ahead of me. Maybe you can figure out the rest."

www.nicap.org...

Apparently Dr. Cannon was approached by several different government investigators after this incident. Something that I found as well is some major discrepancies from the USAF itself pertaining to names of witnesses (ie; In one report the doctors initials are A.E. but in others is L.N., and others A.D! This was also the case with newspaper reports. I went with L.N. because it was the initial given in the first report by Sign) and different accounts given later down the line according to different government researchers. Here is a report conducted later in December of 48’ where you can see the information I am talking about pertaining to the multiple officials that contacted the doctor…
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Courtesy of nicap.org

So why did I bring that up? Well it is an interesting note in the case because obviously someone isn’t getting their research straight and it ain’t me! Another reason I brought that up is to point out the constant disorganized research the USAF does, regardless if it is intentional (disinfo) or not. Another interesting point is why so many more officials (at least that we know of) contacted the doctor. It is probably nothing but I thought it worthy of attention.

Characteristics of The UFO

• Object was symmetrical from any side viewed
• Object traveled very fast, faster than the P-51
• Object appeared to be a small, bright light (Gorman said no larger than 8 inches around)
• Object could maneuver much better than the P-51
• Object was 3 dimensional
• Gorman saw the object through his canopy, windshield, rear, sides, and back while chasing it
• Object was as bright as the city lights
• The object became eclipsed for very short periods when in direct illumination of city lights
• Shape did not vary
• Size did vary in respect to the size when viewed from the windshield
• Total time observed was 27 minutes
• No sound, exhaust trails, or smell
• Altitude varied from 1,000 to 14,000 feet
• Object made extreme evasive-like maneuvers
• Color was “clear white”
• No distinguishing marks of any kind observed
• Flight direction varied
• The object seemed bound to the Laws of Inertia
• Appeared to Gorman to be under some kind of “intelligent control”


Continued HERE...

Some Helpful Links

”gorman2”
”gorman3”
Incident check list
Witness interrogations
Gorman directory


[edit on 10/18/2009 by jkrog08]

reply to post by jkrog08


well done JK you just blew me away !
fantastic post

The concept of a fighter jet having a dogfight with a UFO is hilarious!
Lets put it in context, if you seen an episode of star trek where a jet fighter was chasing the starship just before they hit the warp speed button...wouldn't most people find it comical.....Another one bites the dust lol

Originally posted by treemanx
I think the question asked at the end of the show is the most thought provoking, "what about the countless other fighter jet to UFO encounters that have never been reported or declassified."

indeed..... and as far as the latest infos from the mod via foi goes, well...



was anything substantial revealed?