Conspiracy of human intelligence.

reply to post by bsbray11


Yes, let us just keep ignoring the little acupuncture problem and use our power of intent from our disembodied consciousness and make it all go away.

I keep bringing that one problem up with you and you keep ignoring it. Does he talk about that in his book? Do you *honestly* believe or subscribe to the idea that we can activate a force that is *already* active and *needs* to be active or we all perish?

reply to post by sirnex


What in the world are you rambling on about? I can't even tell anymore. It has nothing to do with either this thread or the AP thread, even though I suspect you are getting them confused.

THIS was my last post, on THIS thread:

A magical high-definition picture box complete with real audio would have seemed equally absurd to people of your attitude a few hundred years ago.

Or even flying a rocket to the Moon. That was deemed absurd even halfway through the 1900's.

And who are all these doubting types again? Oh yeah, "skeptics."

reply to post by sirnex


Seems like you maybe feel more at ease on a 'known science fact' forum than that which is open to exploring possibilities.

As for this thread topic, throwing a few buzz words together doesn't a decent topic make.

Do you really think people are conspiring their intelligence and if so how? and for which purpose?

If you don't believe in that which is unseen and are determined that trolling threads, arguing and name calling is your modus operandi in an attemp at discrediting and silencing those with more vision that do believe there is more to this universe and beyond than meets the eye then the metaphysics thread probably isn't your bag.

Just a reminder from the ATS forum blurb:

This new AboveTopSecret.com forum is for the discussion of a wide range of non-religous topics: Consciousness, Mind, Epistemology, Psychology, Philosophy, Metaphysics, Self-Empowerment, Knowledge and also fringe subjects such as Mind-Control and Psychotronic Manipulation. All in all this will be an \"intellectual & philosophical cafe\" with a focus on everything from mental relaxing and non-religious personal balance, to conspiracies and speculation related to influencing the mind.

"The Earth revolves around the Sun." (Copernicus; Galileo) "Oh, baloney!!!"

"I have harnessed a new form of energy with enormous potential from lightning." (Franklin) "Oh, baloney!!!"

"I have developed a theory of evolution." (Darwin) "Oh, baloney!!!"

"I have discovered all number of unusual creatures in Australia." (The first Brits to explore Australia and send specimens back) "Oh, baloney!!!"

"I can create remote control, and many other fantastic creations using electrical waves." (Tesla) "Oh, baloney!!!"

"We can take a rocket into space, even to the Moon." (Oberth; von Braun) "Oh, baloney!!!"

"I have developed a new science of 'psycho-analysis' useful to the medical community." (Freud) "Oh, baloney!!!"

"I have expanded study of the subconscious and discovered an archetypal 'collective unconscious' among other profound insights into the mind." (Jung) "Oh, baloney!!!"

"I have developed the 'uncertainty principle'." (Heisenberg) "Oh, baloney!!!"

"I have proven mathematical 'indeterminacy' in all recursive systems of logic." (Godel) "Oh, baloney!!!"

"We have discovered 'entanglement'." (Various scientists) "Oh, baloney!!!"

"The body has natural healing capabilities." (Various scientists) "Oh, baloney!!!"

"Consciousness and awareness themselves are related to EM phenomena." (Various scientists) "Oh, baloney!!!"


Are we seeing a pattern yet?

There is a phrase/name, similar to "skeptic" but looking at it from the other side: "Doubting Thomas." Unable to accept new ideas. We have never been without them, historically.

All the famous "idiots" I referenced above appeared to be making abuses to established scientific logic of their day. And they were called idiots and the like by their contemporaries, and worse. A very miserable lot, all those "skeptics," when you look back today on the vitriolic nature of their (obviously flawed) arguments. The only problem: conventional scientific knowledge itself was/is flawed. Which is why science continues to learn new things. "But those new things remain to be proven!", I hear the doubter say. That's right, it remains to be proven.

But you already see the pattern.


And what have the "skeptics" themselves contributed, again?

A whole lot of nothing.

[edit on 28-10-2009 by bsbray11]

reply to post by bsbray11

"We have discovered 'entanglement'." (Various scientists) "Oh, baloney!!!"

Who's saying baloney to that? I agree, we have discovered the we can induce entanglement in particles, but we have never discovered particles entangling on their own. Even if entanglement occurred often in nature on it's own, there would still be no information being transmitted between the two pairs.

"The body has natural healing capabilities." (Various scientists) "Oh, baloney!!!"

You have to be kidding on that statement. You mean there are seriously some scientist who don't believe in the immune system or biofeedback being able to cure stress related issues only?

"Consciousness and awareness themselves are related to EM phenomena." (Various scientists) "Oh, baloney!!!"

I would say half baloney only because the brain is also a biochemical computer as well as requiring electrical signals to operate. The brain, consciousness rather, doesn't rely on EM alone. Disregard the chemical nature all you want, doesn't change the fact of the matter.

Are we seeing a pattern yet?

Sure am, your seeing thing's in those last three statements that don't exist.

There is a phrase/name, similar to "skeptic" but looking at it from the other side: "Doubting Thomas." Unable to accept new ideas. We have never been without them, historically.

You haven't shown any new ideas, just wrong misinterpretations of ideas other people say don't equate to your ideas. I'm really still interested in the acupuncture claim, what does Tiller say about that? It was part of the book review and you do own the book, so maybe you can enlighten me. Why do you keep ignoring that one problem? Are you not focusing your power of intent hard enough to make the acupuncture problem go away?

reply to post by theabsolutetruth

Do you really think people are conspiring their intelligence and if so how? and for which purpose?

Yes, I do think people are conspiring against their own intelligence and the reason behind it is so they can feel special about themselves.

If you don't believe in that which is unseen and are determined that trolling threads, arguing and name calling is your modus operandi in an attemp at discrediting and silencing those with more vision that do believe there is more to this universe and beyond than meets the eye then the metaphysics thread probably isn't your bag.

I am open to the possibilities of different thing's, what I am not open is to the blatant misuse of science in attempt to prove those things. For example, bsbray11 talks a lot about Tiller and believes Tiller is correct in what he describes, yet bsbray11 refuses to answer me on Tiller's claim that acupuncture has been proven to activate the weak electromagnetic force. This is a force that is required to be active all the time, if this force were slightly off, life wouldn't exist. If this force weren't in existence nothing would exist, at least as we know it today. So, the utter misuse of science to prove an assumption without evidence of that assumption on it's own is what I am attacking here.

reply to post by sirnex


Presuming that there are people ''conspiring'' against their own intelligence would imply a conscious effort against knowledge which doesn't make much sense.

Doubtless there are countless fakers relying on others lack of knowledge in order to appear more intelligent, these forums appear to contain a large percentage of such postings, an ego issue presumably.

However there are those with good knowledge who might be seeing things in a more philosophical way attempting to marry their theories to science and as a lot of science 'fact' has since been scientifically unproven, are making parallels to that which is as yet unseen or unproven though science has touched upon similar concepts in other ways.

Science doesn't mean fact and metaphysics and philosophy explores other ways of seeing things and the possibility of things being not as currently held as fact.

The analogy I was making to dark energy is similar. Dark energy is proposed to be made up of less than a quarter dark matter and the universe is now proposed to be the consisting mostly of dark energy and almost ellipsoid.

These are scientific proposals and doesn't give the complete answer to the nature or shape of the universe and how it is held together if indeed it is.

It is essentially a proposal on part of a jigsaw, there are scientific gaps in this multiverse theory.

To fill these gaps scientists and metaphysicists and such like have to theorise before any proof is able to be made and in testing these theories things could be proven / unproven though the nature of science, like the universe is now 'known' to be, isn't constant and as such there are no guarantees and more possibilities.

In exploring these possibilities I believe we 'tap into' higher consciousness, be that an energy, a clearer way of sending brain waves, a more productive way of utilising light / dark energy via our physical bodies or tapping a matrix, or just being more at one, like a solute being, with the most abundant 'substance' in the universe, dark energy.

I have to allude to the 'lightbulb' analogy on this, sometimes the age old wisdom is so correct, people just have to clear the clouds to see better.

Picture the great thinker with a great and profound realisation of universal truth with the pinging lightbulb, maybe all along it is due to the manipulation of light / dark energy passing through us and accessing the correct frequency to do so that gives such vision and insight and we have known it all along, brainWAVE, INsight, seeing the LIGHT, etc, science is just finding ways of proving this ancient wisdom which has grown with us and we are essentially a part of.

The main point is that humans and indeed everything is part of the whole, made from the same atoms and elements and with the same light and dark energy flowing through us, we cannot deny connection to something greater that is the whole and as such cannot deny effect and affect principles.

reply to post by theabsolutetruth

Presuming that there are people ''conspiring'' against their own intelligence would imply a conscious effort against knowledge which doesn't make much sense.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. Why do religious people continuously believe in God(s) despite all the evidence against the belief? Because it make's them feel good or special. People like that kind of stuff, so they purposefully ignore the evidence against their personal beliefs because they think it would make them less special.

Doubtless there are countless fakers relying on others lack of knowledge in order to appear more intelligent, these forums appear to contain a large percentage of such postings, an ego issue presumably.

I agree.

However there are those with good knowledge who might be seeing things in a more philosophical way attempting to marry their theories to science and as a lot of science 'fact' has since been scientifically unproven, are making parallels to that which is as yet unseen or unproven though science has touched upon similar concepts in other ways.

There are certain thing's that we have discovered that we know to be true to a certain extent to a point where any misuse of that learned knowledge would invalidate the arguments being made born from that misuse.

Science doesn't mean fact and metaphysics and philosophy explores other ways of seeing things and the possibility of things being not as currently held as fact.

Metaphysics to my knowledge has given us nothing.

The analogy I was making to dark energy is similar. Dark energy is proposed to be made up of less than a quarter dark matter and the universe is now proposed to be the consisting mostly of dark energy and almost ellipsoid.

The point I was attempting to make is that dark matter does not exist. It's not something we discovered as real, it's something that was made up to explain a big gaping hole in the standard model. To make the theory stick with the observations. Using that unproven assumption to prove another assumption is an exercise of stupidity, not of scientific inquiry.

These are scientific proposals and doesn't give the complete answer to the nature or shape of the universe and how it is held together if indeed it is.

The whole standard model is based on a lot of unproven assumptions, and honestly I don't buy that the universe had a beginning myself.

It is essentially a proposal on part of a jigsaw, there are scientific gaps in this multiverse theory.

The multiverse is an assumption.

To fill these gaps scientists and metaphysicists and such like have to theorise before any proof is able to be made and in testing these theories things could be proven / unproven though the nature of science, like the universe is now 'known' to be, isn't constant and as such there are no guarantees and more possibilities.

I agree, science is a fickle mistress constantly changing her mind.

In exploring these possibilities I believe we 'tap into' higher consciousness, be that an energy, a clearer way of sending brain waves, a more productive way of utilising light / dark energy via our physical bodies or tapping a matrix, or just being more at one, like a solute being, with the most abundant 'substance' in the universe, dark energy.

See, that's where I draw the line. What proof is there that there is a higher consciousness? What proof is there that the mind is separate from the body? What proof is there for brain waves emitting outside of the skull affecting matter? All these damn assumptions just to make you feel special? Come on... See what I mean about conspiracy against intelligence?

Picture the great thinker with a great and profound realisation of universal truth with the pinging lightbulb, maybe all along it is due to the manipulation of light / dark energy passing through us and accessing the correct frequency to do so that gives such vision and insight and we have known it all along, brainWAVE, INsight, seeing the LIGHT, etc, science is just finding ways of proving this ancient wisdom which has grown with us and we are essentially a part of.

There is no dark matter/energy. It is an *assumption* an *invention* so we can continue to keep the current standard model rather than start all over. It was ancient wisdom that dancing naked and chanting a prayer caused rain, do you still follow that ancient wisdom?

The main point is that humans and indeed everything is part of the whole, made from the same atoms and elements and with the same light and dark energy flowing through us, we cannot deny connection to something greater that is the whole and as such cannot deny effect and affect principles.

Particles are not naturally entangled to each other. Yes, it's a neat trick we can do that does have an explanation for it if you bother to read the damn thing, but this is not true all of the time. We are not all entangled with each other, the theory and physics of it does not state anything of that nature, period.

reply to post by sirnex


Trolling again and wasting my time.

I clearly stated certain things are PROPOSALS, yet again you attacked them as if stated as fact.

Read my replies again and maybe if you read them correctly instead of making assumptions yourself then you might just understand the points I am making.

reply to post by theabsolutetruth


I get it... your special, your the chosen one, anything you say is ultimate truth. You are allowed to use assumptions to prove assumptions because you are the almighty holy one we have been waiting for the last two thousand years. Yes, I'm a bastard to play with, nut up and get over it.

reply to post by sirnex


Facts are you didn't read my post properly.

Do not expect arguments based on misinterpretation of my comments.

If you want to think of yourself as a bastard and difficult to play as you said then you go ahead think of yourself like it, frankly who cares?

I post on here intelligently and like to hear other's views on things though seems like you want others to look stupid and if they aren't actually stupid, twisted their posts and called them names.

Most people, like me have plenty to do and set a little time aside for reading and posting on here so stop wasting my time!

[edit on 30-10-2009 by theabsolutetruth]

Originally posted by sirnex

Are we seeing a pattern yet?

Sure am, your seeing thing's in those last three statements that don't exist.

But you were unable to pick up on any other patterns in the other 10 examples of my post?


Here's a second line for everyone with a computer screen resolution too high for the first line to extend for more than a single line.

[edit on 30-10-2009 by bsbray11]

reply to post by theabsolutetruth

Facts are you didn't read my post properly.

You appear to be talking about dark matter/energy as if it's in favor of what your trying to postulate. Problem is, neither dark matter or energy exists. How hard is it to understand that these are invented constructs needed to make the current standard model work with what we currently observe?

[EDIT TO ADD]

Where am I not understanding this statement made by you?

There is light matter, dark matter, light energy and dark energy which science is now aware of and trying to figure out.

Do not expect arguments based on misinterpretation of my comments.

Where am I misinterpreting you?

I post on here intelligently and like to hear other's views on things though seems like you want others to look stupid and if they aren't actually stupid, twisted their posts and called them names

Oh please, since when is using assumptions to prove assumptions even remotely intelligent? I don't have to make anyone appear the way they make themselves appear.

Most people, like me have plenty to do and set a little time aside for reading and posting on here so stop wasting my time!

Yes, I'm using my super mind powers to force you into a discussion with me.



[edit on 30-10-2009 by sirnex]

reply to post by bsbray11


Why not go over the points I made for the last three examples? LINK

I mean.. Wow dude. Rolling eyes emoticon somehow helps your case when you blatantly ignore valid point in argument to the crap your spewing? How's that power of intent going for you, seems the results are a negative so far. Maybe you need a few more acupuncture needles to activate that weak electromagnetic force to help detach your consciousness to help you focus better. Maybe your just not focusing hard enough on ignoring the problem and wishing it away.

You still haven't answered me on that acupuncture claim... why?

reply to post by sirnex


Haha, who is blatantly ignoring things again?

So you really saw no pattern in the other 10 points, or are you going to keep ignoring that question?

Originally posted by sirnex
You still haven't answered me on that acupuncture claim... why?

Um, because (1) I never said anything about acupuncture in the first place and (2) don't know much of anything about it anyway. For someone who talks so much about science and intelligence, do you know what a logical fallacy is, btw?

[edit on 30-10-2009 by bsbray11]

reply to post by bsbray11

So you really saw no pattern in the other 10 points, or are you going to keep ignoring that question?

I already answered that question and gave valid points in regards to that answer. But, like I said, why not have anything to say?

Um, because (1) I never said anything about acupuncture in the first place and (2) don't know much of anything about it anyway. For someone who talks so much about science and intelligence, do you know what a logical fallacy is, btw?

No, you personally didn't, but a book review of Tiller's book in which you admit to own and have read says that this is what Tiller states in his book.

I'll bring attention to the review again that was given in the other thread in which you ignored there as well.

Chapter 1 introduces the power of weak electromagnetic forces to govern cellular behavior in the brain and in biological systems. The author then calls attention to an ancient way to treat bodily disturbances by accessing acupuncture points that have recently been shown to activate weak electromagnetic forces.

LINK

I also made question of Tiller's apparent fascination with kirlian photography in which I made note that this is a well understood phenomenon that *is not* photographing any auric fields emanating from the human body as is postulate by it's proponents.

All these damn thing's you just keep ignoring and you have the gall to talk to me about intelligence.

Originally posted by sirnex

So you really saw no pattern in the other 10 points, or are you going to keep ignoring that question?

I already answered that question

Damn, well, I just re-read your two responses since that post and I'm still not seeing it.

So for clarity, what was the historical pattern you were seeing between new theoretical advances by various scientists and responses from the "skeptics" of the time?

reply to post by bsbray11


I mean, I am truly honestly interested in Tiller's claim about acupuncture research proving that it can activate the weak electromagnetic force. I was kind of hoping since you own the book yourself that you would be able to elaborate on this idea of his considering that you see his work as valid science. I'm also having trouble finding more information about his view on kirlian photography other than he was really into that stuff, does he touch up on that in his book as well?

Damn, well, I just re-read your two responses since that post and I'm still not seeing it.

Ah OK, you must be unable to see the color blue, which is really interesting, what does the sky look like to you? Here, I'll re-post my reply since your unable to see the big blue LINK to the answer I gave.

"We have discovered 'entanglement'." (Various scientists) "Oh, baloney!!!"

Who's saying baloney to that? I agree, we have discovered the we can induce entanglement in particles, but we have never discovered particles entangling on their own. Even if entanglement occurred often in nature on it's own, there would still be no information being transmitted between the two pairs.

"The body has natural healing capabilities." (Various scientists) "Oh, baloney!!!"

You have to be kidding on that statement. You mean there are seriously some scientist who don't believe in the immune system or biofeedback being able to cure stress related issues only?

"Consciousness and awareness themselves are related to EM phenomena." (Various scientists) "Oh, baloney!!!"

I would say half baloney only because the brain is also a biochemical computer as well as requiring electrical signals to operate. The brain, consciousness rather, doesn't rely on EM alone. Disregard the chemical nature all you want, doesn't change the fact of the matter.

Are we seeing a pattern yet?

Sure am, your seeing thing's in those last three statements that don't exist.


Now, what really boggles my mind is that you apparently *did* see that reply before as you did reply to it, but only to the last point made in where your just seeing thing's that aren't there, utterly disregarding the valid points I raised in your last three examples. What is really amazing, you seem to have completely forgotten that you even saw and replied to that post in question.

Since you clearly are unable to see the big blue LINK, I'll give you the post ID instead for your reply, in case you don't believe you actually replied to it. pg9#pid7447144

You drinking tonight? You seem a bit off, like your mind isn't functioning properly. Probably just trying to hard on focusing your power of intent. How's that working by the way?

Originally posted by sirnex
I mean, I am truly honestly interested in Tiller's claim about acupuncture research proving that it can activate the weak electromagnetic force.

Well, you're barking up the wrong tree, because I don't remember reading a thing about it in the book that I read. I remember reading pages upon pages detailing experimental set-ups, recorded data, and the data's interpretation by Dr. Tiller and his staff at MIT, but that's neither here nor there and has nothing to do with this thread.

Now if you're as interested in it as you say you are, you'll pursue the subject somewhere else since I've made it clear that I don't know anything about acupuncture, except that the Chinese have had a lot of success with it.

Damn, well, I just re-read your two responses since that post and I'm still not seeing it.

Ah OK, you must be unable to see the color blue, which is really interesting, what does the sky look like to you? Here, I'll re-post my reply since your unable to see the big blue LINK to the answer I gave.

Yes, I saw all that already, but I clearly asked you to address the other 10 examples.

You drinking tonight?

Not tonight, that was last night, and I didn't even drink enough to get a hang over (I don't drink to get drunk). Just a couple of those seasonal pumpkin ales Blue Moon is selling. (Btw, I didn't taste any pumpkin... )

But anyway, you are still avoiding my question.

[edit on 30-10-2009 by bsbray11]

reply to post by sirnex


Looks like you still don't get it.

Here it is in simpler terms:

Science thought xyz, on various theories, relativity etc for example

things happen....

now science says oh well actually it's not xyz it's something else and we have added a few more theories as PROPOSALS too.

Thus demonstrating that which was / is known to be 'fact' isn't necessarily so.

With this scientifically proven phenomena of 'known' becoming unknown and unknown becoming 'known' there is more possibility to the as now seemingly 'unknown' though popularly held beliefs or 'out there' ideas having more truth to them which could eventually be scientifically proven.

For example ESP / OBE who is to say these aren't perfectly explainable and scientifically provable utilisations of, and as yet, 'unknown' energy or a way of utilising electromagnetics / harmonics etc. AS AN EXAMPLE that just hasn't been accessable to science yet.

Which raises the more metaphysical based suggestion that perhaps the attainment or ability to experience ESP / OBE type phenomena is from using other brainwave function than the rational scientific thought process?

IT IS A QUESTION, A SUGGESTION!