Large Hadron Collider being stopped, from the future?!

May be old news now but its conected, how about the suspected Terrorist they've arrested who apparently was working on this project... If peoples fears are true about the LHC, imagine a terrorist tinkering with the machine and what implications it would have? And also, i do remmember reading a long while back about how this machine had broken and that it wont be fixed and ready to start work again until 2012. ( Although i dont want to imply another 'supposed' event into that year.. )

reply to post by fromunclexcommunicate


Because of the potential singularity threat I will say one thing; for the safest results they should only collide the matter and anti-matter while in a direction opposite from the direction we are traveling through space, "if" they can determine that!

Assuming a singularity occurred that froze in space/time, they would want it to be on the side of the planet where it is going to be left behind by the planets forward progress rather than be pulled deeper into the mass of the planet giving more opportunity/probability for it to grab hold of the planet.

Do you understand what I mean?

No consequencE..

Thank you.




[edit on 14-10-2009 by noconsequence]

News Reporter: How do you account for this apparent failure? Is there hope for LHC's future?

Theoretical Physicist: Failure? No. Future, yes! That's just it. Okay...you see the LHC is a time traveler. Well not now, but it will be in the future. It's traveling back in time to sabotage my reputation! No, it works fine. My science was good. The LHC is just more powerful then we anticipated...

If "John" came back to stop the LHC, then there wouldn't be a LHC in the future, so "John" wouldn't need to come back and stop the LHC. Time travel creates too many paradoxes to be plausible.

Its a big complex machine the most complex man has ever built. . . nothing works right the first time for the most part. . . it was broken down by a quench and gas venting. . . . no mystery really. . .

as of october fifth

Only Sectors 3-4 and 6-7 are still in the cooling phase (currently between 60 and 20 K). As already mentioned in the previous update, as soon as a sector reaches the nominal cryogenic temperature, teams can start powering the magnets. At present, the current is flowing in the magnets of three sectors, while the remaining three will be powered in the coming two weeks.

Screen shot showing the first ion beam in the T12 transfer line.


The new layer of the Quench Detection System (QDS), installed in four sectors, is functioning well.

cdsweb.cern.ch.../2009&number=5&category=News%20Articles&ln=en

lets be realistic string theory is a very strange theory its theorists are even stranger and time travel/multiverse is nothing more at this time than a mathematical curiosity.

I'm not saying string theory or time travel is impossible or wrong just that i really don't think a time ripple caused by a particle from the future is messing up THE MOST COMPLEX MACHINE WE'VE EVER BUILT. Its bound to have some kinks and some quenches.

I guess we'll see over the next few months

Well - when I was in college - all I wanted to do was work at the SCSC - they spent 3 billion out of 5, then congress pulled the funding and they spent another 1 bil filling in the hole in the ground. Original budget for a functioning SCSC 5 bil, total spent 4 bil for digging a hole, then filling it in.

If it wasn't the Higgs boson that did it - I want to know who was responsible!

On a more serious note - its a fun theory, and I would be fairly sure the guys are having a lark and just doing some mental exercise - though the theory behind it is plausible.

Personally - I don't like the theory surrounding the Higgs anyway - or much of anything regarding the standard models.

I think the vacuum may reveal her colors when they fire this thing up - and that there are vested interests that do not want the nature of the vacuum revealed.

I think the vacuum is a super fluid crystalline lattice composed of electrons and positrons - which form particles at the Plank length. This may have the energy to force them out of the lattice - making a nasty tear in the vacuum - should disappear instantly though - of course, 'should' lacks a certain authority ..

This is interesting. Just a few hours ago I watched a Science Channel show about the LHC. Brian Cox (of course) was talking about the Big Bang, and how it was only just after that event that Higgs bosons could exist. After a few milliseconds, their large mass (and thus inherent instability) would make them degrade into smaller, more-stable particles. And I thought to myself, "Hm. What if that was the only time they were supposed to exist? What if making one right now in this universe would be a major mistake?" As in, if they actually ended up making one inside ATLAS or something for even the slightest fraction of a femtosecond, it would create a paradox far more heinous than that grandfatherly one. It's even possible that spawning a single Higgs boson now would create the Big Bang all those billions of years ago... thus making the universe its own grandpa.

Now, I hadn't tied time travel into it, but now that I've seen this it makes sense. It isn't someone screwing with the past, it isn't really "time travel," but... look. Time is an aspect of the universe that we don't understand. The same is true of the Higgs field, its bosons, gravity, magnetism, and a myriad other things. There could easily be natural processes whose effects travel backwards through time. An event triggers a process that proceeds into the past and cancels out whatever event triggered it. It's the same as saying, "The creation of a Higgs boson inside the ATLAS detector on Sep. 20th, 2008 initiated a negative-duration energy pulse in the LHC ring which added enough extra current into the circuit on Sep. 19th, 2008 to cause an electrical connection to arc over to the nearby aluminum casing and melt a hole in it, releasing all the helium in that sector and..." you know the rest. From our Sep. 19th point of view, it would simply look like a random mechanical failure, wouldn't it? Let me just quote something, right out of a CERN press release about it:

The LHC commissioning team had taken advantage of a suspension of beam operation to test the magnets at a high current of more than 9000 amps. These essential electrical tests began in June 2007 and all the other sectors passed with flying colours. This was the last circuit of the last sector to be tested, making its failure all the more frustrating.

Awful big coincidence, huh? The biggest machine ever built, with more genius-level designers than any other machine, and tested to within an inch of its life for years before they start trying to use it for real, and it just... mysteriously fails? Because of a faulty electrical connection? And just after passing all its operational tests??

Bite the other leg, mate; it's got salsa on.

However! The energies the LHC will be capable of (7 tera-electron-volts, which is a lot) are nowhere near what nature herself can do. Every moment of the day, particles traveling at the speed of light collide with Earth's atmosphere and magnetic field. I don't know how many TeV they can be, but it must be huge. If a 7-TeV collision can create a Higgs boson, then they're constantly being created just above our heads. No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.

So how do I reconcile those two beliefs? Well... there could be things happening inside the collision points that don't happen up in space. The LHC ring is far faaaaaar colder than any other point in this galaxy, for one thing. It's in a near-perfect vacuum, unlike the space over our heads. Maybe ozone molecules moderate the collisions and keep Higgses from forming, or something, I don't know. I can only think back on human history, noting all the times someone thought they knew what they were doing when they didn't. "We know we don't know everything, but we still act like we do!" Humans...

Discuss.

Originally posted by freestonew
hi all.

Is the hadron Collider being stopped by breakdowns, from the future, to keep the Higgs particle from being detected?!
--Several very distinguished scientists think so!

Dr. Nielsen is well-qualified in this tradition. He is known in physics as one of the founders of string theory and a deep and original thinker, “one of those extremely smart people that is willing to chase crazy ideas pretty far,” in the words of Sean Carroll, a Caltech physicist and author of a coming book about time, “From Eternity to Here.”

I found this on twitter, then the New York Times science article.

www.nytimes.com...

Then it will be time to test one of the most bizarre and revolutionary theories in science. I’m not talking about extra dimensions of space-time, dark matter or even black holes that eat the Earth. No, I’m talking about the notion that the troubled collider is being sabotaged by its own future. A pair of otherwise distinguished physicists have suggested that the hypothesized Higgs boson, which physicists hope to produce with the collider, might be so abhorrent to nature that its creation would ripple backward through time and stop the collider before it could make one,

the hypothesized Higgs boson, which physicists hope to produce with the collider, might be so abhorrent to nature that its creation would ripple backward through time and stop the collider before it could make one,

May I attempt a little "translation" on this?

We actually already found something interesting and we are now taking the money and decided to run leaving you all buffed with and hanging while we wasted all your precious money on that piece of machinery for no actual benefit to humanity.

If this is proved to be the case then i suggest take these couple scientists, find the tallest tree and hang them upside down until the rest of them indeed discover something interesting or at least decide to share something interesting with the rest of us, if indeed they are on to something.
Seriously.

[edit on 14-10-2009 by spacebot]

very interesting, maybe its for the best that we do not discover the particle.

[edit on 14-10-2009 by The Cloak]

[edit on 14-10-2009 by The Cloak]

reply to post by fromunclexcommunicate


So does that mean that oddly dressed people are going to start suddenly appearing inside the collider? I hope they can find a way out before they get zapped or someone else from some other time lands on them. Surely the people running the thing have prepared for that possibility. One would hope, at least. And what if one of those time travelers brings some horrid disease along? My head is startin' ta hurt. I'm gonna get a beer.

This reminds me of Michaelson and Morley trying to test the speed of light with and against the earths rotations their results kept proving to be 300,000km/sec.

They were puzzled why they could not get a different speed for light moving in the direction of the earth as against it until at one point they realized that the failure of the experiment was the result they were looking for, and that it was probably a universal constant.

Several years and almost ten billion dollars later maybe the real result of the experiment is that the LHC will not function in this manner and that now we have a defined boundary of space-time in which to lay some ground work for a unified theory.

Or maybe I should stop mixing red wine and ambien before coming online to babble.

reply to post by freestonew


After reading the article I find myself asking a question.

Does Dr. Nielsen get his theories from ATS because it sure sounds like it.

If all devices capable of creating the Higgs failed to operate for apparently similar reasons, I'd say the theory was not all that far out there.

But a run of bad luck which includes problems as commonplace and mundane as the US government getting in over its head and then deciding to just wash its hands of a billion dollar machine that isn't conforming to the short-sighted schedules of men whose careers go on the chopping block every two years like clockwork... that's not so convincing.

It would seem to me that if there was some physical reason you couldn't create the higgs, a fairly specific explantion of why could be inferred from the circumstances.

Maybe the problem would be that separating the Higgs from the rest of a particle would somehow screw up the particles relationship with time, causing the particle that was going to experience success to apparently vanish from space and time or do some other weird thing that prevented us from ever actually observing success.

Maybe (in fact more likely) the answer would be something too complex for me to even guess at. But I'm confident that like virtually everything else in the scientific world it would have a certain degree of consistency to it which implied certain mechanics.

reply to post by The Vagabond


You know, after reading your post something occured to me.

The article is probably an egotistical scientists version of saying "I cant do it".



[edit on 15-10-2009 by XXXN3O]

reply to post by freestonew


This isn't as crazy as it sounds.

The "now debunked" john titor story fundamentally starts with the description of the 'big machine at CERN' creating several interesting new particles.

Real life high energy theoretical physics has the graham-wheeler-everett hypothesis of "multiple worldlines" that can eliminate the grandfather paradoxes.

So, supposing a non infinite number of worldlines to "keep things simple", a future time traveler of a malignant sort would need to repeatedly try to derail the LHC (and the project is technically derailed as we know) on multiple world lines to hope our same worldline is affected.

That seems unlikely. Perhaps the titor story may still hold some water though.
He said his worldline was already roughly 2.5% different from ours, not an insignificant deviation, and that was based on 1998 observations. Maybe on our worldline, time travel doesn't develop this early, and maybe neither does a nuclear war happen in 2015...that, would be nice.

peace

reply to post by timetravel_1


any relation to timetraveler_0 ?

cute.

SOme really interesting theories we all have , and they really make me think , however im not so keen on the people saying its a complete waste of money !

Wouldnt you rather your government spend tax payers money on a huge multi billion dollar scientific experiement that unites scientists from all over the earth , than spend the same amount of money on arms and ordnance to destroy the places that those scientists are from ?

Its kinda odd , but im feeling like
Cern is gonna play out like Black messa, One thing for sure is that i hope and pray there is a scientist called Gordon Freeman working at Cern.

The point someone made earlier about higgs bosons only being able to exist right after the big bang is a good theory , I mean if an event as EPIC as the big bang only happened once as far as we know , then surely we humans cannot recreate such a magnificent event not because we lack technology and understanding but because nature cannot allow for another big bang event because of limitations of energy.

Jeez i wish i'd studied physics at university instead of environmental toxicology.

reply to post by Thought Provoker


7 TeV is a lot, but machines in the US were already doing 2TeV.

The LHC seems to be down for a long while, and its frustrating every project there
obviously. Some researchers are returning to home countries like the US due to the delay.

The sad thing is this energy level, and higher, needs to be employed for cutting
edge particle work. Im personally looking forward to several holes being filled
into A.G. Lisi's E8 Lies geometry, like mendel's periodic table unknowns were filled in at a later time, in order to unravel gravity.

If a higg's initiated a big bang event we wouldn't be here. Expect them to find
a microsingularity though, and that would revolutionize power generation....