Religion, a thorny issue in ufology, even for UFO Disclosure

Religion is indeed a thorny issue, no doubt about it. Religion is basically about beliefs. In this sense, beliefs in UFOs (especially as physical spacecraft piloted by advanced, physical extra-terrestrial entities, hopefully to save our planet from eventual destruction and help us bring in the New Age) is, unfortunately, still no different from religious beliefs.

Therefore, if there ever will be a full UFO Disclosure that will validate such reality, then such religious beliefs will completely disappear.

The so-called Christian ufology seems to have made a definite inroad into this strange field, especially in recent years. Christian ufology, for the most part, postulates that UFOs are demonic manifestations of malevolent, fallen angels preparing to deceive mankind for the last time before Christ returns. Many fundamentalist Christians also seem to hold the belief that two thirds of angelic entities in this entire universe are benevolent and that the remaining one third are the fallen entities that are deceptively posing as emissaries from advanced extra-terrestrial civilizations.

I began UFO research around 1962 and was a strong proponent of the E.T. hypothesis of the origins of UFOs. However, around 1978 I began to abandon such hypothesis. I was affected by John A. Keel and others, such as Dr. Jacques Vallee who postulated that the UFO phenomenon may not necessarily be of E.T. origin.

The book that influenced me most was THE EDGE OF REALITY (1975), written by Dr. Vallee and Dr. Allen Hynek. To be honest, even today I am uncertain as to what 'reality' really is.

John A. Keel once said that 'ufology' is equivalent to 'demonology'. And John A. Keel never even described himself as a Christian ufologist, nor has Dr. Vallee.

John A. Keel and Dr. Jacques Vallee remain two of my greatest heroes in ufology.

The bottom line is that we all need to look beyond our linear thinking and not be enslaved by the so-called empirical science and its methodology. We need to depart from the physical, nuts-and-bolts concept of ufology.

I do not mind the mainstream categorizing ufology as "pseudo-science". Moreover, what is more truly amazing is that the study of "dimensions", "parallel dimensions", "ultra-dimensionalities", etc. are part of quantum physics.
Therefore, surprisingly enough, there is a fine line between "pseudo-science" and "dimensional" studies.

Finally, on a strange note, if a full UFO Disclosure really were to be made, it would have to be made either by the alleged UFO entities themselves or by the government, or possibly even together.

Personally I believe that the day that happens (whichever one will come out first to disclose) many people will feel that it will be one of the greatest days in earth's history.
On the other hand, some other people may feel that it will be the beginning of the end of the system of things in an ominous way.

Whatever the case may be, EVERYTHING in this world will change forever from that point on......EVERYTHING !!

www.myspace.com...

John A. Keel and Dr. Jacques Vallee remain two of my greatest heroes in ufology.

This is were I stopped reading, I think both of them went over the edge of sanity long ago.

Originally posted by jclmavg

John A. Keel and Dr. Jacques Vallee remain two of my greatest heroes in ufology.

This is were I stopped reading, I think both of them went over the edge of sanity long ago.

Good for you! You can exercise self control. Now please qualify your statement for those that may not agree. If you would be so kind.

Cheers,

Erik

S+F'd OP. This could get interesting

Religion I think is one the big reasons we do not have UFO disclosure. Due to the mass panic it would cause for religious folk.

Now I dont' mean they would all start screaming about armageddon or anything but let's entertain this simple idea.

What if ET's do know secrets of the after life that we do not? Let's say that all of our religions are totally wrong and we've been living in the dark for 3000 years.

If ET's were to present themsevles and give us this knowledge the impact of such a thing would be astronomical. People would panic with their belief systems destroyed.

Although I think alot of them would deny any such information as being valid, it would still put us into quite the interesting position.

So, I agree with you when you put religion and Ufology side by side, the only thing I would disagree with would be that there is more recent of UFO's than there is for any of the mainstream religions.

~Keeper

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
So, I agree with you when you put religion and Ufology side by side..

I'd politely disagree there - theological opinion/organised religious dogma has no evidence whatsoever.

Whens the last time a god or goddess was visualy corellated on multiple radar exhibiting electromagnetic effects?

I think some criticism is warranted when it comes to, especially, John Keel.

Norio talks about how Keel never described himself as a "Christian ufologist." I'm not sure I would describe Keel as a ufologist, period. Probably he was a ufologist in the broad meaning of the word, but I don't think he was a particularly good researcher.

Yes, Keel had some revolutionary ideas and to some degree motivated and influenced other people to think out side of the box, but I'm yet to understand how this outside of the box thinking helps us in researching the UFO phenomenon.

I always felt this was jumping the gun. I mean, we're still in the phase of gathering and evaluating the evidence, we're nowhere near trying to understand it. And while this thinking outside of the box might broaden our horizons, as of now it amounts to basically creative speculation.

Originally posted by karl 12

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
So, I agree with you when you put religion and Ufology side by side..

I'd politely disagree there - theological opinion/organised religious dogma has no evidence whatsoever.

Whens the last time a god or goddess was visualy corellated on multiple radar exhibiting electromagnetic effects?

Hahahahahhahaha!!!


Thanks for that, Karl!! Your turn for the wit today.

I'm sure Oprah considers herself a goddess and perhaps in her less lean years she may have in fact showed up on radar.

OMG I can't believe I just typed that. MODs have mercy on my soul.

Cheers,

Erik

I don't think it would have a major effect on religious folks if the disclosure came. I remember seeing in the news last year the Vatican making a statement about the possibility of other life out in the universe.

www.breitbart.com...

VATICAN CITY (AP) - The Vatican's chief astronomer says that believing in aliens does not contradict faith in God.

he goes on to say.

Funes said that ruling out the existence of aliens would be like "putting limits" on God's creative freedom.

So us that believe in UFology get ridiculed by religion and vice versa. Since the "holy grail" has not been found in either. Hence the question.

What's the difference between a good UFO pic and the bible? Some consider them both "comic books."

We're already in contact.

Originally posted by Norio Hayakawa
Religion is indeed a thorny issue, no doubt about it. Religion is basically about beliefs. In this sense, beliefs in UFOs (especially as physical spacecraft piloted by advanced, physical extra-terrestrial entities, hopefully to save our planet from eventual destruction and help us bring in the New Age) is, unfortunately, still no different from religious beliefs.

Skeptical Ed: "Beliefs, religious or otherwise, are strictly based on mental conditioning or programming. You cannot have one without the other. Mental conditioning is usually enforced by parents on the impresionable minds of children. Strangely, adults can be mentally conditioned as evidenced by cults. Once people are mentally conditioned they are difficult to deprogram as cult deprogrammers find out. - Belief in UFOs is formed by sympathetic resonance and not by repetition as a child experiences."

Therefore, if there ever will be a full UFO Disclosure that will validate such reality, then such religious beliefs will completely disappear.

Skeptical Ed: "And just who is going to do this UFO "Disclosure"? What makes everybody "believe" (mental conditioning!) that the U.S. Government, the one most requested it seems, knows anything about UFOs that we don't already know? What makes people believe that, somehow, the U.S. Gov't has acquired any special knowledge about UFOs? Where would the U.S. Gov't get this supra-knowledge? Not from "captured" UFOs for no one has "captured" any UFOs. This is a romantic notion unsubstantiated by evidence. I say this because nothing has happened on this earth due to any government having any knowledge besides worldwide basic knowledge. Planes still have to obey aeronautical laws, e.g., wings, etc. So the only way for religious beliefs to disappear is for every single religious believer to be done away with leaving us atheists in charge. THEN you'll progress on earth!"

The so-called Christian ufology seems to have made a definite inroad into this strange field, especially in recent years. Christian ufology, for the most part, postulates that UFOs are demonic manifestations of malevolent, fallen angels preparing to deceive mankind for the last time before Christ returns. Many fundamentalist Christians also seem to hold the belief that two thirds of angelic entities in this entire universe are benevolent and that the remaining one third are the fallen entities that are deceptively posing as emissaries from advanced extra-terrestrial civilizations.

Skeptical Ed: "There is no such thing as christian UFOlogy. First of all, christian is taken from christ which means 'the anointed one.' Christ is not a name, it is a title. Christians should really be called "Jesusians.' It's like da Vinci in place of Leonardo. Leonardo was from Vinci, i.e., da Vinci. da New York, da Chicago. It doesn't matter what christians say about UFOs if they stray away from the "nuts and bolts" category. Christians, being mentally conditioned to believe in myths will, naturally, have to toe the christian line and repeat what they are told about demons, angels, etc., even though we non-mentally conditioned laugh at such silliness."

I began UFO research around 1962 and was a strong proponent of the E.T. hypothesis of the origins of UFOs. However, around 1978 I began to abandon such hypothesis. I was affected by John A. Keel and others, such as Dr. Jacques Vallee who postulated that the UFO phenomenon may not necessarily be of E.T. origin.

Skeptical Ed: "I also read everything published by Vallee and Keel and postulate was all they did. IOW, they speculated as to their beliefs but did not ever provide any evidence to support their beliefs since beliefs are of the mental realm. They sounded good, but a person with an open mind didn't gravitate to accept what they said since it was not supported with evidence which is what convinces one to consider something seriously. At no time can any human say what is ET or what isn't ET. We don't have the evidence to sway."

The book that influenced me most was THE EDGE OF REALITY (1975), written by Dr. Vallee and Dr. Allen Hynek. To be honest, even today I am uncertain as to what 'reality' really is.

Skeptical Ed: "We know 2 realities although we exist in only one that we know of and that's physical reality. The other "reality" is our sleep reality which can sometimes fool us into thinking we are in physical reality. Once we are awake, we know it. Never mind this pinch yourself to be sure. Sometimes it seems, mainly based on others' accounts, that there are other dimensions or realities but in 71 years I've never experienced anything but awake and asleep."

John A. Keel once said that 'ufology' is equivalent to 'demonology'. And John A. Keel never even described himself as a Christian ufologist, nor has Dr. Vallee.

Skeptical Ed: "Comparing UFOlogy to 'demonology' is just an exercise in creative thinking without have to be logical."

John A. Keel and Dr. Jacques Vallee remain two of my greatest heroes in ufology.

Skeptical Ed: "They, through their books, certainly make you think about alternative realities (ran out of room!)"

The bottom line is that we all need to look beyond our linear thinking and not be enslaved by the so-called empirical science and its methodology. We need to depart from the physical, nuts-and-bolts concept of ufology.

I do not mind the mainstream categorizing ufology as "pseudo-science". Moreover, what is more truly amazing is that the study of "dimensions", "parallel dimensions", "ultra-dimensionalities", etc. are part of quantum physics.
Therefore, surprisingly enough, there is a fine line between "pseudo-science" and "dimensional" studies.

Finally, on a strange note, if a full UFO Disclosure really were to be made, it would have to be made either by the alleged UFO entities themselves or by the government, or possibly even together.

Personally I believe that the day that happens (whichever one will come out first to disclose) many people will feel that it will be one of the greatest days in earth's history.
On the other hand, some other people may feel that it will be the beginning of the end of the system of things in an ominous way.

Whatever the case may be, EVERYTHING in this world will change forever from that point on......EVERYTHING !!

www.myspace.com...

reply to post by Norio Hayakawa


Continuing...

Norio: The bottom line is that we all need to look beyond our linear thinking and not be enslaved by the so-called empirical science and its methodology. We need to depart from the physical, nuts-and-bolts concept of ufology.

Skeptical Ed: "We cannot depart from the physical, nuts-and-bolts concept of UFOlogy because that is all we have at the moment and we don't even have the nuts and bolts yet! Although some believe that we, or Uncle Sam and other Uncles do. Our linear thinking is guided by what we see with our eyes, on photos/film/videos."

I do not mind the mainstream categorizing ufology as "pseudo-science". Moreover, what is more truly amazing is that the study of "dimensions", "parallel dimensions", "ultra-dimensionalities", etc. are part of quantum physics. Therefore, surprisingly enough, there is a fine line between "pseudo-science" and "dimensional" studies.

Skeptical Ed: "Mainstream (science?) has to categorize UFOlogy as 'pseudo-science' because science depends on repeated experiments and you can't experiment with hearsay, photos/films/videos. There's nothing to take to the lab. We cannot test anything that is not found in physical reality and even invisible waves are part of our physical reality. We develop physical instruments to measure invisibility. So far, no instruments to measure other dimensions where any kind of life, as we know it, exists."

Finally, on a strange note, if a full UFO Disclosure really were to be made, it would have to be made either by the alleged UFO entities themselves or by the government, or possibly even together.

Skeptical Ed: "UFO Disclosure is wishful thinking by believers. We non-believers know that there is nothing to disclose. However, if aliens exist and they reveal themselves to us, they may not necessarily be from other planets or other galaxies, universes, etc. We have no concept of their reality. So, should some other form of life reveal itself to us and they're also connected to UFOs and as we atheists already know they told humans that, indeed, their gods are strictly products of the mind, the initial shock would have a certain effect on the believers unless this lifeform decided to keep humans as slave to their religions since this lifeform could, if it was nefarious, further enslave humans to do their bidding! To serve humans!"

Personally I believe that the day that happens (whichever one will come out first to disclose) many people will feel that it will be one of the greatest days in earth's history.

Skeptical Ed: "I don't share your enthusiasm. First, shock, then chaos, then ... we won't know until "then."

On the other hand, some other people may feel that it will be the beginning of the end of the system of things in an ominous way.

Skeptical Ed: "As I was saying..."

Whatever the case may be, EVERYTHING in this world will change forever from that point on......EVERYTHING !!

Skeptical Ed: "I'm not going to be around so to those of you young enough to possibly experience it ... lots of luck!"

www.myspace.com...

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed
"UFO Disclosure is wishful thinking by believers. We non-believers know that there is nothing to disclose.

The more and more I read your comments Ed - the more and more you sound like a 'true beleiver'.



Maybe you should change your handle to 'Cynical Ed'

The comment by Ed that none of the current UFO evidence is reproducible, can't be taken in a lab and therefore all is pseudo-science is of course bollocks.

What Ed _really_ seems to be saying is there ain't a saucer or alien body availble _to him_ to take into a lab and take apart, disect, etc. I suggest this is the level of evidene necessary for Ed personally to convince himself the phenomenon is real. What Ed wants is proof, not evidence. He doesn't even seem to know the difference between the two. So yes, Ed seems to be a hardline pseudo-skeptic.

His argument also fails due to the fact that some UFO evidence most certainly can be taken into the lab; radar tapes, photos, ground trace evidence, etc. all this can be analysed repeatedly by scientists if necessary.

So two lessons. One, Ed is a pseudo-skeptic who blurs the distinction between proof and evidence. Two, there can be most certainly a scientific investigation of typical UFO evidence.

Ed should probably be on my ignore list, but it's just fun watching pseudo-skeptics like him fool around.

Originally posted by redwoodjedi

Originally posted by karl 12

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
So, I agree with you when you put religion and Ufology side by side..

I'd politely disagree there - theological opinion/organised religious dogma has no evidence whatsoever.

Whens the last time a god or goddess was visualy corellated on multiple radar exhibiting electromagnetic effects?

Hahahahahhahaha!!!


Thanks for that, Karl!! Your turn for the wit today.

Cheers Erik - if you've not seen it before, George Carlin makes some mighty fine points in this clip.

Originally posted by jclmavg
..some UFO evidence most certainly can be taken into the lab; radar tapes, photos, ground trace evidence, etc. all this can be analysed repeatedly by scientists if necessary.

Jclmavg, good point - there have been quite a few very interesting scientific papers on the UFO subject - Richard Haine's study is a good example:

56 pilot sightings involving electromagnetic effects

There are also other examples here including this paper by Dr James E. McDonald,the Senior Physicist at the University of Arizona:

UFOs - An International Scientific Problem, Paper Presented at the Canadian Aeronautics and Space Institute Astronautics Symposium, Montreal, Canada, March 12, 1968.


Perhaps the biggest problem scientists have in regard to the study of the UFO subject is summed up in the quote below:

"Most scientists have never had the occasion to confront evidence concerning the UFO phenomenon. To a scientist, the main source of hard information (other than his own experiments' observations) is provided by the scientific journals. With rare exceptions, scientific journals do not publish reports of UFO observations. The decision not to publish is made by the editor acting on the advice of reviewers. This process is self-reinforcing: the apparent lack of data confirms the view that there is nothing to the UFO phenomenon, and this view (prejudice) works against the presentation of relevant data."

Peter A. Sturrock, "An Analysis of the Condon Report on the Colorado UFO Project," Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol.1, No.1, 1987

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by Norio Hayakawa

Therefore, if there ever will be a full UFO Disclosure that will validate such reality, then such religious beliefs will completely disappear.

Some of the greatest Christian Philosophers in the world and the ones who have changed the face of certain arguments completely disagree with this, and have no issues with other life forms in the universe. I personally don't see the issue my self as problematic for the religious.

Originally posted by karl 12

Originally posted by Skeptical Ed
"UFO Disclosure is wishful thinking by believers. We non-believers know that there is nothing to disclose.

The more and more I read your comments Ed - the more and more you sound like a 'true beleiver'.


Maybe you should change your handle to 'Cynical Ed'

You have no idea what the word "believer" means. Time for some basic education. Although that pointed hat looks good on you.

Originally posted by jclmavg
The comment by Ed that none of the current UFO evidence is reproducible, can't be taken in a lab and therefore all is pseudo-science is of course bollocks.

Skeptical Ed: "Since you didn't quote me, I don't know to what you allude. I have had 6 UFO sightings, superb ones. I videotaped a UFO. Don't say that I don't accept the reality of UFOs as you would be lying."

What Ed _really_ seems to be saying is there ain't a saucer or alien body availble _to him_ to take into a lab and take apart, disect, etc.

Skeptical Ed: "Never mind what I seem to be saying. Quote me correctly or don't reply with a less than intelligent reply. There are no "saucers" being reverse-engineered as there is no evidence for any technical superiority being shown by anyone. Ditto for aliens or alien bodies. How about you putting your money where your mouth is and supply sources, reliable sources, where irrefutable evidence resides for the public to access to prove your intent. Bollocks? Never Mind The Bollocks - Here's The Sex Pistols"

I suggest this is the level of evidene necessary for Ed personally to convince himself the phenomenon is real. What Ed wants is proof, not evidence. He doesn't even seem to know the difference between the two. So yes, Ed seems to be a hardline pseudo-skeptic.

Skeptical Ed: "Read what I wrote above. And you seem to be a hardon."

His argument also fails due to the fact that some UFO evidence most certainly can be taken into the lab; radar tapes, photos, ground trace evidence, etc. all this can be analysed repeatedly by scientists if necessary.

So two lessons. One, Ed is a pseudo-skeptic who blurs the distinction between proof and evidence. Two, there can be most certainly a scientific investigation of typical UFO evidence.

Ed should probably be on my ignore list, but it's just fun watching pseudo-skeptics like him fool around.

You are such an authority on what? Oh, yeah, bollocks!

I see no problems with religion giving problems to this alien belief since religion is slowly being eliminated and disregarded.