What is Freedom to Bush ?

Perhaps I should rephrase.

We shall free and liberate the Iraqi's, has become quite the cliched slogan for the Bush administration. But the question remains, what exactly constitutes freedom in the eyes of the Bush administration? If freedom is the absence of restrictions and liberty the restriction of external impediments, is securing us from terrorists and opposing homosexual marriages freedom?


Deep

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by ZeroDeep]

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by ZeroDeep]

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by ZeroDeep]

America vehemently bombards the media with slogans of Freedom, what is Freedom?

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Perhaps I should rephrase.

We shall free and liberate the Iraqi's, has become quite the cliched slogan for the Bush administration. But the question remains, what exactly constitutes freedom in the eyes of the Bush administration?

In my opinion, it means getting as much of Bush's Corporate Empire into Iraq and sucking out the natural resources. It means changing the dominant ideology in Iraq to American values.

Freedom as in being able to elect an official...a power the iraqi people will have in the near future...and havent had in any recent memory...and any other freedoms that come with a democratic nation....

you sir are being unpatriotic how dare you question Bush's Freedom, he's a good christian american and you should be ashamed of yourself! Now Im going to go back to drinking beer and watching Survivor.

Im not obligated to be patriotic towards America, Im Canadian.

Freedom is a very ambigious term used by the Bush adminstration. Freedom in some aspects can mean the act of self-determination through lawmaking.

Freedom is not bringing security to your country, that's just hobbesian Bs !

Deep

Maybe it would be a little easier to have some freedom in Iraq if there werent people who are trying scare americans off by fighting them, suicide bombings, etc. Maybe THEY should just let Bush do what he was planning on doing and see how they like it.

Haha silly canadian, didnt you know your government was just a puppet government. Same with Mexico.

okay Im done wasting this thread.

[Edited on 23-5-2004 by daeldren]

Zero, what is your idea of "freedom"?

I never liked the whole "We're liberating the Iraqi people" crap from the get-go. It had nothing to do with "liberation", in my opinion. That was just an angle they took to try and make people think it was humanitarian as well as being part of the war on terror.

I don't remember the Iraqi people rebelling against what we view as an oppresive government. Sure, it isn't our way of life, but did they view it as their form of liberty; the right to be totally controlled by their government? After all, a "right" is the obligation to do what is moral. I prefer not to dictate to other nations what they should see as moral, as long as it does not interfere with our nation.

Ok if Canada is a puppet government then why didn't we follow you to Iraq? Why?? Because the Canadian people practise true democracy. Chretien knew we wouldn't support troops in Iraq because we didn't support the justification for Bush's war.

I'll ask the Americans on this thread this question. Place yourself in the Iraqis shoes:

-The 1st Gulf War, Bush senior said to the people of Iraq "Over-throw Saddam and we'll support you" so they did and the Americans didn't help and 10000s were slaughtered by Saddam.

-10 years of crippling sanctions that led to the death of many

-Round 2 for the war, this time we'll overthrow Saddam and you will hold independent elections and Iraq will be a better place for all(Just like America)

-Over a year since Saddams over-throw and it's still a mess. And oh ya, let's start humiliating and torturing all our prisoners because that'll make the Iraqi's love us that more.

What would you do if you were an Iraqi. Myself I think I would try and fight the tyranny.

Freedom under the Bush regime is an illusion. Patriot Act says it all, you might as well rip up the Constitution because Bush is changing it to suit his beliefs. Does gay-marriage hurt John Q. Public? NO. Freedom is freedom, not just freedom in some areas.

Freedom to Bush is when he controls everything and everyone

Originally posted by BasementAddix
Freedom as in being able to elect an official...a power the iraqi people will have in the near future...and havent had in any recent memory...and any other freedoms that come with a democratic nation....

Just like Kuwait? The country we liberated from Saddam so another dictator could rule? When are the Kuwaitis going to vote? I won't even get into Suadi Arabia.

Deez, the first war was Hussein's fault, as was the second one. The sanctions were Hussein's fault, the fact that his populace suffered while he made money on the oil for food deal was also his fault.

The fact that Bush left those who did rise up against Hussein is nobody's fault - except Bush '41. No excuse for such stupidity! He stabbed those people in the back.

freedom to bush is an indulgence to a previliage few. if you're not white, hate gays, hate women, or practice blind faith, then there is a big chance bush hates you.

for now, the real "freedom" iraqis will get is to be food for worms. they can't find freedom in life, they might as well find freedom in death. there's no worrys or pain when you die

Just like Kuwait? The country we liberated from Saddam so another dictator could rule? When are the Kuwaitis going to vote?

Understandably, it is easy to ascertain that your major wasn't in History, eh?
Kuwait, prior to the war and after the war, is a constitutional monarchy, you know, like the UK, etc. As such, what are they supposed to be voting for?
Kuwait: Nature and Structure of Government




seekerof

If the Iraqi people were really opressed by the goverment, they could have done one of two things, Leave or change the laws. The fact that they chose to stay and succumb to opression speaks volumes.

The Bush doctrine of freedom is security, which I dont agree. Such is man/woman in nature that he is on a constant strive towards a sense of security, may it be spirtualy or materialistic.

Bush needs to help the Iraqi people determine thier own fate, and thier own freedoms and rights.

Values and morals are relative, the west's ideology cannot adhere the Middle East without reform.

Deep

Originally posted by Seekerof

Just like Kuwait? The country we liberated from Saddam so another dictator could rule? When are the Kuwaitis going to vote?

Understandably, it is easy to ascertain that your major wasn't in History, eh?

Kuwait, prior to the war and after the war, is a constitutional monarchy, you know, like the UK, etc. As such, what are they supposed to be voting for?
Kuwait: Nature and Structure of Government
seekerof

Sometimes, when you read things, they don't always reflect what is actually going on.

"There are no political parties in Kuwait, parliament itself is all male, and only about 15 percent of its 850,000 citizens - and none of its women - are eligible to vote. The ruling al-Sabah royal family controls almost everything in Kuwait, including its wealth, security forces and media."
Voice of America

Again Curme, the people of Kuwait do not vote but for minster members, etc. Kuwait is ruled by a ruling family, as mentioned---as the UK, so your comment did and does not make any sense. What exactly do the Kuwatis going to vote on, besides whats mentioned, replacing the ruling family? Not.



seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
Again Curme, the people of Kuwait do not vote but for minster members, etc. Kuwait is ruled by a ruling family, as mentioned---as the UK, so your comment did and does not make any sense. What exactly do the Kuwatis going to vote on, besides whats mentioned, replacing the ruling family? Not.
seekerof

My point is, we want Iraq to be more democratic than Kuwait, a country we liberated. People in Iraq will actually get to choose their leaders. Unless your a male in a very small minority, you don't have a voice. Iraq claimed to be democratic, just like the US. Just take a look at how the Kuwaiti government actually runs. It is miles away from the UK.

The UK's constitutional monarchy is also Western based and influenced, while Kuwaits is Arabic based and under Arabic influence (ie: Kuwait has an Emir (a semi-heriditary title), the UK by a Queen/King. As such, the Emir chooses who will be Prime Minister and deputy prime minister; the cabinat is choosen by the Prime Minister, with the agreement of the Emir. Though they operate differently, they operate differently for a variety of cultural reasons. Thus when I implied that the UK and Kuwait were both constitutional monarchy's, that was correct. I did not go into details as to how they were different.
Emir

This leads to Iraq and their own version(s) of democracy. Will it be the same as a Western based democracy? Probably not. You have to account for various Islamic/Arabic cultural and religious influences. To try to equate democracy in Iraq to that of any other democracy in the West is not necessarily fair to Iraq or anyone else trying to put, build, and establish any type of semblance of democracy in and within Iraq. I have no doubt that it will be different.



seekerof

[Edited on 23-5-2004 by Seekerof]