Alcohol and Measured Human Evolution

Alcohol and Measured Human Evolution

No Gene for Alcoholism, but a possible way to measure Human evolution.

This hypostasis of mine is 20 years old. I would like to explore it with you members as genetics and origins seem to be topics of interest.

My belief is that If you were to examine the genes of a society or culture that has weaned it self away from the use of alcohol---- say CHINA . Less than one percent of the population use alcohol. Compare the Chinese to a culture of 80 percent users. Australian and North American aboriginals are 80 percent users.
You would be able to measure the difference genetically and establish a time line for that transition.

Here are some facts to get started.

If you look at the global percentages of consumption of alcohol. Then start in China and follow a spice trade like route east. You will find India Indians have a 25 percent rate of use, Asia Minor and the Mediterranean countries about 35 percent. Northern Europe and Africa clock in at about 55 percent.

The most interesting is pre European North America and Australia at an amazing 80 percent.

I compiled this data after having a very heated debate with NIH scientists . It was about the foolish breeding of Super Rats, the study of twins and convicts to find the DNA markers that prove their parent or parents caused them to become alcoholic by passing them a bad gene or predisposition for what they were now calling a disease.

When I had collected the factual data I looked at its Linearity and surmised that there could be genetic reason for the east - west increase in consumption due to reproduction.

Everything looked pretty good until I got to the Atlantic Ocean and became confused.
The science at the time was saying alcoholics inherited a predisposition from an alcoholic parent or parents much like cancer. At the time cancer had the visible DNA markers.
That could explain, that if the societal use of alcohol started in China and then copulated its way West with the spices over a period of time, you would find no barrier to stop its dissemination.

Stick with me here because I think this is the most important part.

I now had the two interesting dilemmas.

1----How did this disease copulate its way across the Atlantic and Indian ocean?
2----Why did the data percentages seem backwards?

There is no record of large scale use of alcohol in pre European N. America or Australia and no reports of massive inter-breeding to facilitate a grand scale genetic change in the aboriginal populations over night.

And why in the world would there be more drunks in those populations than in the once pie eyed Chinese.

( Absolutely no disrespect to any of the countries or cultures here.) Every culture and country in it's turn has had an identical scenario.

It occurred to me that the aboriginals didn't get the sex, just the hooch. And the booze got them drunk not their folks.

After thinking about this for awhile, I figured the data wasn't backwards at all.

If the Chinese were first to use alcohol, using the left over rice from a newly contrived agriculture ------
(my calculated guess is 7 -8,000 years ago) and if they past that process west, the numbers from the data start to make sense.
This is ok but does a poor job of explaining why there is today more use in the west than there is in the east.
Aha ha! What if the Chinese became slowly immune to the poison by a evolutionary process.
Selection of a mate, social awareness, depletion of food sources etc.

Repeat this process west ward and the data are looking pretty good.

Ok then, HOW do you prove this!
And I am not saying I can.
If I had a bunch of sober Chinese DNA donors and some from pure blooded North America and Australia aboriginals and a test lab, that would be a start.

Way unlike the National Institute of Health's program.
Perhaps it has changed in the last 20 years but I doubt it.

This was the end of my thread when I last posted it.
I was banned for some month so the thread fell apart.

Do to help from other members I found out some good recent news that fits well in the Hypostasis.
Dr. Lee of the Nat Institute Of health has reported that central Asians have been assaulted with a flush gene that keeps Chinese folks from consuming. I was right!
Russian geneticist have tracked and documented that gene.
Their maps look exactly like my spice trade Hypostasis.
It also shows the dissemination of the gene south through the South Pacific.
Unfortunately they think it is a bad gene because it seems to esophageal cancer in those that still attempt to consume alcohol. They don't connect it to a antidotal type of gene that has mutated to change the ability to consume it. Alcohol is a slow poison, The human factor responds slowly.
I contend the only predisposition to consume is good health.
I am bucking convention with my thinking and would like some input Thanks you all.

I can't find a way to edit this part I wrote last night in my haste to post the thread.
I read it this morning and O well!

This was the end of my thread when I last posted it.
I was banned for some months so the thread fell apart.

Do to help from other members I found out some good recent news that fits well in the Hypostasis.
Dr. Lee of the National Institute Of Health has recently reported that central Asians have been assaulted with a flush gene that keeps Chinese folks from consuming Alcohol. I was right twenty years ago!
Russian geneticist have tracked and documented that gene.
Their maps look exactly like my spice trade Hypostasis.
It also shows the dissemination of the gene south through the South Pacific islands.
Unfortunately they think it is a bad gene because it seems to lead to esophageal cancer in those that still attempt to consume alcohol. They don't connect it to a antidotal type of gene that has mutated to change the ability to consume alcohol. Alcohol is a slow poison. Human DNA responds slowly.

I contend the only predisposition to consume alcoholics good health.

I am bucking convention with my thinking and would like some input Thanks you all.

Maybe someone cold help me get my OP edited correctly so this post can go away.

[edit on 5-9-2009 by Donny 4 million]

4, I just got to tell ya the Chinese have never weaned themselves off of anything. If they don't drink alcohol, you can bet your life the were forced to do so. Weaned, I don't think so: lol:

if your theory is correct, my kids should get the flush gene.
on another note, consumption in japan is quite "healthy", and yet, they have this flush gene.

it's a complicated issue, and i wouldn't jump to conclusions. there are many factors that guide evolution, yet, the actual mechanisms of evolution are completely unknown.
the flush gene, as we're calling it, could be coincidentally associated with other factors running in parallel with alcohol throughout history.
like, a historical rash of the populace waking up with ugly partners, for example! embarrassing!

If you want a more sober culture to study I would look to muslims maybe innus.
One cant make brew in the arctic desert.

As for the Chinese..they drink. They drink they do drugs they are just like most of us. Not that most of us use mind alterents... I am just saying their society has no social taboo about it...

Muslims and Mormons. They do not drink.... and Ice people...I would study the ice folk more because those guys just aint got enough plant matter to be wasting on fermentation.

For the record I find the idea of Evil genes, Alcohol genes, and Gay Genes to be very unscientific. These days geneticists seem to desire a gene for how we enjoy the weather. Our DNA only make up so much about us.... external influence makes up the majority of our behavior patterns.... and if that is poorly understood so is our current psychology sciences.... I mean ADD? Get real. Too few laymen understand how some diseases are voted into existence with circumstantial symptoms...more often than not the outcome of the vote is determined by how much more money can be made and not the mental health of the people....

Addiction Genes?

No.

Maybe trash science will die in my lifetime... some how I doubt it.

[edit on 19-10-2009 by titorite]

reply to post by billybob


I doubt you will ever come back to this thread as I have been delinquent .
I would like to address the enigma of my OP. Japan and China even with their proximity have had historical and cultural differences. Not to mention the geographical divide.
They could be the extreme west from China or a good factor for understanding in my theory. Thanks for your interest.

reply to post by titorite


Hey, you have a lot of good points here but give me a break. It is just a hypotasis. I don't campaign it as a FACT. I was hoping we all could do ourselves and our children a good turn, trying to understand . That's all.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by Donny 4 million]

Originally posted by useless eaters
4, I just got to tell ya the Chinese have never weaned themselves off of anything. If they don't drink alcohol, you can bet your life the were forced to do so. Weaned, I don't think so: lol:

Well I disagree.
The statistics do not bare this out. Nationally the numbers are way far below those of any other country.

Alcohol-induced Flush Warns of Esophageal Cancer Risk
www.cancer.gov...

"Asian flush," a response to alcoholic beverages caused by a buildup of acetaldehyde, is most often seen in Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans who are unable to metabolize alcohol effectively. It is also strongly associated with risk for esophageal cancer: People who turn red after drinking have a dramatically higher risk of developing the disease than those who don't flush.

In the March issue of PLoS Medicine, study authors Dr. Philip Brooks of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, and his collaborators at Duke University and the National Hospital Organization Kurihama Alcoholism Center in Japan wrote that because flushing is easily apparent and also strongly linked with cancer risk, it should be a routine cancer screening factor in primary care settings.

They noted that 36 percent of East Asians, or approximately 540 million people worldwide, carry a defective copy of the gene for aldehyde dehydrogenase 2 (ALDH2), the enzyme that helps break down acetaldehyde, a product of ethanol metabolism, into acetate. Acetaldehyde is strongly carcinogenic, the authors explained.

People who carry two defective copies of the ALDH2 gene are usually unable to drink significant amounts of alcohol due to the severity of their reaction. However, those who have only one defective copy of the gene can develop tolerance, and prospective studies have shown that the risk for developing cancers in the upper aerodigestive tract is approximately 12 times higher in these individuals. Furthermore, because acetaldehyde lingers in saliva, particularly in those who smoke, they are at an even greater risk for cancer.

Pointing out other social trends that pose increased risk among this population, the authors wrote, "Clinicians need to be aware of the risk of esophageal cancer from alcohol consumption in their ALDH2-deficient patients…[and should] determine whether an individual of East Asian descent is ALDH2 deficient simply by asking whether they have experienced the alcohol flushing response."

It's pretty simple, but people looking for evolutionary/genetic answers don't know how to find the answer:

People use mind-altering substances because it makes them feel good, when they normally don't.

Alcohol happens to be very effective in alleviating anxiety. Heroin works wonders for the depressed. Meth and Cocaine are so effective for ADHDers, that pharmaceutical companies are selling half-arsed derivatives of these "street drugs."

If you want to treat any given substance-dependency, then you have to either: 1)find an alternative substance to use (perhaps, one that's more socially accepted); or, 2) treat the underlying psycho-social problems (which is hard to do; especially because biology often enters into the equation).

Originally posted by theWCH
It's pretty simple, but people looking for evolutionary/genetic answers don't know how to find the answer:

People use mind-altering substances because it makes them feel good, when they normally don't.

Alcohol happens to be very effective in alleviating anxiety. Heroin works wonders for the depressed. Meth and Cocaine are so effective for ADHDers, that pharmaceutical companies are selling half-arsed derivatives of these "street drugs."

If you want to treat any given substance-dependency, then you have to either: 1)find an alternative substance to use (perhaps, one that's more socially accepted); or, 2) treat the underlying psycho-social problems (which is hard to do; especially because biology often enters into the equation).

This is mostly true. What is different is that alcohol is the only substance of this nature that has effected every human on the planet in one way or another. The phoney attempts by the NIH and others is just a money machine. Much like most diseases they have spent zillions and produced nothing . They don't want to consider cure or how to find one.