A conspiracy in the LGBT community: Bisexual Erasure

reply to post by Before2017Victor

As I was reading your initial post, I got the feeling that a lot of this probably comes from the fact that the LGBT community strongly says that homosexuality (referring to both males and females) is not a choice.
There's so much controversy about it too...with talks about the gay gene and such.

Well there is no choice when it comes to sexuality, it seems to be hard-wired into the brain - a very instinctual and visceral part (that's how people know what to do with out being told).

So there is no choice in what you feel but you do have a choice in how to act.

The only difference between me and any gay or straight guy is that I seem to have a wider capacity for love.


Plus if sexuality really was a choice, I see no reason why people would choose to be gay (or bi for that matter).

Is sexuality innate? Idk, is the fact that I like ice cream innate?

Well tastes are acquired to some degree but as I said above, sexuality seems to be part of our very neurology.

I have yet to see a large sum of Heterosexual women wanting to watch gay men get it on.

We there has been one girl who likes us bi guys already post in this thread, here.

Is it that religion has an issue with certain genders loving each other or is it that it has an issue with promiscuity?

Both, I'd say. For much of Christianity's life on earth, it has viewed any kind of deviancy from monogamous heterosex inside marriage to be a sin and since sex outside of those limits has always been common that sexuality was "of the flesh" (primal urges more or less) and that it need be resisted.

Wouldn't you agree?

I think so. Some people need to validate themselves and so bring some passion into the debate on the side of sexual freedom. Others will follow the intrinsic societal dogma against anything not heterosexuality and will attack the other people (ranging from a bit of harmless name calling to the insinuation that non-heterosexuality is a product of moral corruption as Bigwhammy would have you believe).

Am I on the right track here or...???

You are certainly asking thoughtful questions.

[edit on 22-8-2009 by Welfhard]

^
Thanks. I try.

Originally posted by Welfhard

Plus if sexuality really was a choice, I see no reason why people would choose to be gay (or bi for that matter).

Really good point. Who would choose to have all the negativity/stigma surrounding homosexuality/bisexuality shoved in their face?

Life is tough for people with "different" sexual orientation. Can lead to mental illness and quite possibly even suicide.

[edit on 22-8-2009 by Before2017Victor]

reply to post by Before2017Victor


I've even had a straight friend reflect on his suicidal history of girlfriends and remark to me that he wish it were a choice. "I'd become gay so fast!" He said.

reply to post by Welfhard


Sad.


So, with all that said.


If we both conclude that there is something about sexuality that is innate.

Actually, I recall now that I once heard that a Homosexual males brain resembles a Heterosexual females brain.
I forget where I heard it exactly.

But, anyway. With that said....then why would there be Bisexual Erasure??

Do you think that the LGBT community thinks that the "swinging both ways" thing makes it seem as though sexuality is a choice?

I see no reason to why the community would be so hostile toward bisexuality unless it counteracted something they advocate for.

[edit on 22-8-2009 by Before2017Victor]

I do think, that since the early 2000s, maybe even since about 1990, bisexual chic has become very popular among young women.

While a small minority of these girls represent true bisexuals, I think most are being experimental/doing it on dares, because it's cool, etc, like the Katy Perry song "I Kissed a Girl' (who is not bi and probably only slightly bi-curious).

I do believe there are true bisexual women and true bisexual men, however many if not most of the teenage girls who claim to be bisexual are probably only bi-curious.

There's nothing wrong with that though.

reply to post by Before2017Victor


All I know for sure is that a social mentality that you are either gay or straight developed and I don't think it helped that significantly shade-of-grey bisexual people are on the rarer side.

I'm no expert but what I think happened is:
The G & L community have had a long and tough time of it historically and not in a secularised world, they are given their freedoms (although more so in some places than in others). Like the blacks, they fought for their recognition of equality, of humanity.

They taught themselves to have pride in what they are (or atleast to have no shame) and to show the world that they were so. Suddenly they were gay inspite of the world however the world kept it's aversion to them and so would recognise any sexual act with an individual of the same sex as gay and label that person as such. Suddenly in the worlds eyes, a person was either gay or straight.

The gays in their efforts to teach themselves to dislike heterosex also adopted the mentality that you are either one of us or one of them.

Both parties tell youth that it's either one or the other, producing a kind of biphobia. Bisexuals, then, look as they are just trying to play both sides, pretending to be straight while actually being gay.

I also think that many gay people may feel cheated by bisexuals who can freely walk in both camps.

At least that's my take of it anyway.

[edit on 22-8-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Donnie Darko

I do believe there are true bisexual women and true bisexual men, however many if not most of the teenage girls who claim to be bisexual are probably only bi-curious.

However sexuality being spectrum, it's unfair to say that there is straight, gay or bi like they are all discrete options. As you said, there is nothing wrong with bi-curiosity, people should be permitted to explore feelings that they naturally have.

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by Donnie Darko

 

I do believe there are true bisexual women and true bisexual men, however many if not most of the teenage girls who claim to be bisexual are probably only bi-curious.

However sexuality being spectrum, it's unfair to say that there is straight, gay or bi like they are all discrete options. As you said, there is nothing wrong with bi-curiosity, people should be permitted to explore feelings that they naturally have.

What I'm saying is I think some young girls just do it to be cool, even if it makes them feel uncomfortable or they don't like, because popular culture tells them kissing other girls etc is cool.

reply to post by Donnie Darko

What I'm saying is I think some young girls just do it to be cool, even if it makes them feel uncomfortable or they don't like, because popular culture tells them kissing other girls etc is cool.

Absolutely. The reverse is true for guys (which I reckon that this social thing is one that guys developed) so that when curious guys do experiment, they'll often do it very discreetly and secretly - a few guys I have done things with were like this, they wanted it but were afraid of the consequences if they were found out.

But things are changing for the better I think. I've even known guys who've experimented without any beginning desire just because they couldn't be sure if they hadn't tried it.

[edit on 22-8-2009 by Welfhard]

Here's a good point:

Sexuality is on a spectrum.

Originally posted by Before2017Victor
Here's a good point:

Sexuality is on a spectrum.

Indeed, I take it you've read the results produced by Kinsey?

IMO, while some of his work was said to be very controversial (but then that depends on who was making accusations about his research and what they had to gain by discrediting him), I do believe he was probably the last great sexologist with the right ideas and evidence to back it up.

He asserted that the majority were bisexual to one degree or another, and that this can change throughout ones life. He viewed sexuality as an act rather than a lifestyle, asserting basically that a man might have a sexual encounter with another man (based on bonding, competition, fetish, desire, need...) but it is the act itself which is homosexual and not the man.

Society has to be reminded that we made these labels. They were not in existence before the start of the 20th century.
Nature doesn't allow for such easy categorization either, so labelling peoples sexuality as one of the three is as pointless as labelling humans as small, medium and large.

The one thing I am 100% certain of is that most men (my own research has been based entirely on male sexuality) are not exclusively heterosexual or exclusively homosexual, but are somewhere in-between. The true minorities are at either extreme of the scale.

Therefore, I believe that society is wrong in the assumption that heterosexuality is the predominant sexual orientation.

reply to post by detachedindividual

Thankfully, we are moving away from the false idea that exclusive heterosexuality is the norm and into a more bisexual era. The next generation are coming to grips with their real sexuality quickly, regardless of the labels pushed by society.

I think labels in general are completely stupid because sometimes they are used to pen people into a group corral and sometimes people have a problem with how they are identified and will make a choice against their inclination in order to have a label that may or not fit them.

I don't think we are inherently bisexual. I think we are sexual. Both sexual organs (penises and vaginas) have within them (be it sperm or eggs) reproductive "items". "Sex" is an evolutionary urge to promote the continuation of the species. It may end in an impotent union, but the urge is based on a need to reproduce that is programmed in our DNA.

Attraction is not necessarily sexual. You can be attracted to colors (clothing, hair color, eye color), physique, timbre of voice, etc. Something appeals to you about another individual.

I may very well think that Angelina Jolie, Kate Winslet, Kate Moennig, or a young Joan Jett is sexy, and I could make sexy times with any of them because I don't have a problem with it, but I don't have the urge. They are beautiful humans that have that certain something that catches my eye and my spirit. But if I were to have sex with Angelina Jolie I wouldn't have the same urge as I would if someone locked me in a room with Jamie Bamber or Noel Fielding (no judgments).

I think a lot of people think that same-sex attraction makes them bisexual. We aren't heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual. We're just sexual with a preference (I believe) towards dominance or submissiveness in sex. Basically, as my "gay" friend put it: tops or bottoms.

Well...just my opinion.

reply to post by A Fortiori

We're just sexual with a preference (I believe) towards dominance or submissiveness in sex. Basically, as my "gay" friend put it: tops or bottoms.

Well...just my opinion.

Even that will range for people and I think many are capable of both. I'm pretty happy being dominant or submissive.

Originally posted by Welfhard

Originally posted by Before2017Victor
As I was reading your initial post, I got the feeling that a lot of this probably comes from the fact that the LGBT community strongly says that homosexuality (referring to both males and females) is not a choice.

Well there is no choice when it comes to sexuality, it seems to be hard-wired into the brain - a very instinctual and visceral part (that's how people know what to do with out being told).
Sexuality is not a choice, but for a certain period of one's life - puberty to late adolescence - it can feel like one. This is the period when sexuality is developing and still relatively unfocused. A lot of us experiment with different modes of sexuality at that age. Eventually, though, we all settle down to our natural mode and stick to it.

Howeer, I don't believe that it is possible to condition or influence the final outcome, even during the period of sexual experimentation. People are born with their sexuality, just as they are born with 'bits' that look a certain way, even though those bits don't develop till adolescence. Of course, environmental factors can affect the development of both sexual traits and characteristics to a modest extent, but never, I think, to the extent of altering them fundamentally, or beyond recognition.

Originally posted by A Fortiori
I think a lot of people think that same-sex attraction makes them bisexual. We aren't heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual. We're just sexual with a preference (I believe) towards dominance or submissiveness in sex. Basically, as my "gay" friend put it: tops or bottoms.

Well...just my opinion.

I agree with everything else you've stated there, but the dominance issue doesn't work IMO.

Certainly in male bisexuality the aspect of dominance and submission is often completely non-existent between men in a sexual pairing.

I fully believe that it exists in many gay male relationships (and probably often changing between partners), and it also exists in male/female relationships. But in male/male pairings where both are bisexual it seems to be predominantly focussed on the external, rather than on penetrative intercourse.

reply to post by detachedindividual

Certainly in male bisexuality the aspect of dominance and submission is often completely non-existent between men in a sexual pairing.

I agree. I don't feel a sub or dom dichotomy when I think about being with guys or look back over my past experiences.

I fully believe that it exists in many gay male relationships (and probably often changing between partners), and it also exists in male/female relationships. But in male/male pairings where both are bisexual it seems to be predominantly focussed on the external, rather than on penetrative intercourse.

Can you clarify? I'm not certain what you mean.

[edit on 24-8-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by detachedindividual

 

Certainly in male bisexuality the aspect of dominance and submission is often completely non-existent between men in a sexual pairing.

I agree. I don't feel a sub or dom dichotomy when I think about being with guys or look back over my past experiences.

I fully believe that it exists in many gay male relationships (and probably often changing between partners), and it also exists in male/female relationships. But in male/male pairings where both are bisexual it seems to be predominantly focussed on the external, rather than on penetrative intercourse.

Can you clarify? I'm not certain what you mean.

[edit on 24-8-2009 by Welfhard]

Well, when discussing dominance in a sexual pairing, we are talking about penetration. The act itself proposes dominance over a submissive partner.

Shere Hite (renowned sexologist) states that dominance in a sexual pairing is displayed by the physical penetration of one partner by another, and the simple fact that they are "on top".

In a bisexual male/male sexual relationship it seems (at least to me, through research and discussion) to be almost entirely based around the enjoyment of the penis rather than enjoyment of penetrative sex.

Bisexual male pairings seem to be predominantly based around masturbation and oral sex rather than penetrative intercourse.

Of course, that's not to say that diversity doesn't exist, I simply believe that the majority are not inclined to have penetrative intercourse, or that it takes a very low priority for bisexual male pairings.

reply to post by detachedindividual

Of course, that's not to say that diversity doesn't exist, I simply believe that the majority are not inclined to have penetrative intercourse, or that it takes a very low priority for bisexual male pairings.

I thought that's what you meant however I have to respectfully disagree. I don't think it's a low priority for me or any other bi guys I've discussed it with (more than you may think). So I'm not quite sure what to make of that. It would seem odd that I nor any of those I've met are representative of this idea.

Penetrative sex seems to naturally arise and in my experience, greatly enjoyed. The thing I've found to be typical is that role switching or having turnabout happens as both enjoy both positions.

[edit on 24-8-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by detachedindividual

However, I should add I've met a few guys who do like penis a lot but have no interest in any other part of the body or relationship - they won't kiss or be held or anything.