National Geographic - 9/11 Science and Conspiracy Special 8/31/09

reply to post by Lillydale


Seem to have problem with comprehension

Notice the firemen are commenting on such things as feeling the building
shake and twist, plaster falling and windows shattering from stress as
the structure warps. Hearing floors collapsing above them

All are signs that the structure is unstable

I can speak from personal experience - fighting fire in attic last month
As we opened up ceiling into the attic noticed the rafters supporting it
were shaking. Got our asses out of there fast! Turned out homeowner
had stored bunch of rolled up carpets in attic - absorbed water from hose
lines and weight was overloading the rafters supporting attic.

FF look for subtle clues about how structure is behaving - not doing
measurements of temperature and load factors. Things like which
way water is draining out of building to see if structure is tilting.

Its an art taught to you

reply to post by thedman


Just because a lot of firefighters testified to hearing explosions, like the "boom boom boom boom boom" like detonations that one of them mentioned on the Naudet brothers' footage, and plenty of similar testimony, doesn't necessarily mean they were just hearing "normal" things. They could have been hearing anything; it is still an open question. I hope that you realize that, and that just because it might have been possible for all the sounds and events described in testimony to have other explanations, you still do not have proof for any one explanation. Like I said, it's still an open question, with no definitive answer.

Originally posted by mmiichael
20 emails back I said I am not a repository of all data related to 9/11. I also said you can find it - if you want to - or pay a search service.

I don't have to prove something that happened actually happened. There is more than sufficient substantiation, official and private.

You want to forward a counter claim - do so. Just saying you don't have some information so therefore it doesn't exist is not something anyone can take seriously.

WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THERE WERE NO PASSENGER BODIES?

Answer that instead of the usual avoidance tactics.

M

Meow, someone got a little grouchy. Listen, I want to sincerely appologize. My inconsiderate asking of questions that you cannot answer really seems to bother you. I hate to see anyone get so upset just because their fairy tale falls apart.

Anyway, even thought I have explained this over and over, let me try and humor you.

The evidence I have that no passenger bodies were in the pentagon crash site is very easy to look up. Just go to Washington's hall of records. Maybe you can even get it online, I do not know nor do I care. Get the original documents on the construction of the pentagon. Some stuff is going to be confidential but I guarantee that you will find that it was not built with any of the bodies from AA77 in it. I am not sure how construction works where you live but they did not use dead bodies from the future in construction here at that time.

If you have something that shows otherwise, I would love to see it. If you have something that shows things have changed, I would love to see that too.

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by Lillydale

 

Seem to have problem with comprehension

Notice the firemen are commenting on such things as feeling the building
shake and twist, plaster falling and windows shattering from stress as
the structure warps. Hearing floors collapsing above them

All are signs that the structure is unstable

Plaster falling is a sign that a steel framed building is going to collapse? You guys have to get your stories straight. Did they know they were coming down or not? I am having trouble finding any quotes from firemen stating that they saw clear signs the building(s) were going to collapse. Where did you see them?

I can speak from personal experience - fighting fire in attic last month
As we opened up ceiling into the attic noticed the rafters supporting it
were shaking. Got our asses out of there fast! Turned out homeowner
had stored bunch of rolled up carpets in attic - absorbed water from hose
lines and weight was overloading the rafters supporting attic.

FF look for subtle clues about how structure is behaving - not doing
measurements of temperature and load factors. Things like which
way water is draining out of building to see if structure is tilting.

Its an art taught to you

You are seriously comparing watching wood sag being forbearance of a house collapse to plaster falling in the world trade center buildings? Do you realllllly think they are apples and apples?

Originally posted by Lillydale
Meow, someone got a little grouchy. Listen, I want to sincerely appologize. My inconsiderate asking of questions that you cannot answer really seems to bother you. I hate to see anyone get so upset just because their fairy tale falls apart.

Anyway, even thought I have explained this over and over, let me try and humor you.

The evidence I have that no passenger bodies were in the pentagon crash site is very easy to look up. Just go to Washington's hall of records. Maybe you can even get it online, I do not know nor do I care. Get the original documents on the construction of the pentagon. Some stuff is going to be confidential but I guarantee that you will find that it was not built with any of the bodies from AA77 in it. I am not sure how construction works where you live but they did not use dead bodies from the future in construction here at that time.

If you have something that shows otherwise, I would love to see it. If you have something that shows things have changed, I would love to see that too.

You have to realize some people, me anyway, play all this as an interactive videogame. At least on 9/11 threads arguing with Truthers. The scripts are already written and yo just have to see how well yo can counter the moves. A good exercise in arguing and typing fast.

No I don't have any information on hand as to the fate of the bodies in that crash. The sort of thing I don't really want to know more about.

And I have never seen anything resembling evidence that anything different from what reported actually occurred.

Just as I only know of the Viet Nam War from media and reading. It may have been some elaborate government snow job. I mean where is the proof all those soldiers died, their body parts photos, etc.

I don't even know for sure there really is a place called Viet Nam. Sometimes you have to rely on the information you immediately have on hand.

Mike

reply to post by Lillydale

Plaster falling is a sign that a steel framed building is going to collapse? You guys have to get your stories straight. Did they know they were coming down or not? I am having trouble finding any quotes from firemen stating that they saw clear signs the building(s) were going to collapse. Where did you see them?

The quotes I posted (only a few ) reflect what the FF saw -

Deputy Chief Joseph Callan was in lobby when he noticed the plaster
falling from the ceiling and windows in the lobby breaking

FDNY Assistant Chief Joseph Callan: "Approximately 40 minutes after I arrived in the lobby, I made a decision that the building was no longer safe. And that was based on the conditions in the lobby, large pieces of plaster falling, all the 20 foot high glass panels on the exterior of the lobby were breaking. There was obvious movement of the building, and that was the reason on the handy talky I gave the order for all Fire Department units to leave the north tower." Source

Callan: "For me to make the decision to take our firefighters out of the building with civilians still in it, that was very tough for me, but I did that because I did not think the building was safe any longer, and that was just prior to 9:30."–Source

There was obvious movement of the building, and that was the reason on the handy talky I gave the order for all Fire Department units to leave the north tower.

"obivious movement of the building"

These are clues that the structure is becoming unstable and starting to twist out of alignment.

Something all FF are taught to notice - subtle clues that something is not
right.

I certified as a fire safety officer which means on the fire ground I am
supposed to watch for just such things as rafters in attic shaking or windows breaking.

Here are some more quotes

Firefighter Mike Cancel, Ladder 10:We could feel the building starting to twist above us. I called Ladder 10 three times, Ladder 10 roof to Ladder 10. There was no answer. I said we have to evacuate, the building's coming down. Again, there was no response.Source

"building starting to twist"

PAPD Sergeant David Lim: On the way down, we were losing our lights & could feel the bldg falling apart. ...You could feel the building starting to collapse internally. I got down to about the twenty-first floor, when I met Chief Romito, Captain Mazza and Lieutenant Cirri, and they had come from the Police Academy to assist. And I remember, they were trying to make a stretcher for this fellow that had difficulty breathing.

So I told the Chief, I didn’t know if he knew that the other Tower was down. And I remember everybody starred at their blackberries. They had these special pagers I guess that told them when things were happening.And I remember showing the Chief the inside of the floor, because we were still in the staircase so you could see part of it: part of the building is already collapsed in, internally. So the Chief said, “Okay, forget about this, would you just carry him down?”(Lim later became trapped in the north tower B stairway. Source: 9/11 Commission Public Hearing testimony, day 1)

"part of the building is already collapsed in, internally"

FDNY Firefighter Hugh Mettham: We reached the sixth or seventh floor and are met by many firefighters coming down the stairs, informing us that the upper floors are collapsing and that there’s a heavy odor of gas and fuel.

"upper floors are collapsing"

Have indicated relevant phrases

So what part do you have problem understanding ?

Originally posted by thedman
So what part do you have problem understanding ?

Taking everything you just posted for granted, what's to say the structural instability was the result of fire and impact damages and definitely not incendiaries or other devices pre-weakening the structure? How can you tell the two apart?

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by Lillydale

 

Plaster falling is a sign that a steel framed building is going to collapse? You guys have to get your stories straight. Did they know they were coming down or not? I am having trouble finding any quotes from firemen stating that they saw clear signs the building(s) were going to collapse. Where did you see them?

The quotes I posted (only a few ) reflect what the FF saw -

Deputy Chief Joseph Callan was in lobby when he noticed the plaster
falling from the ceiling and windows in the lobby breaking

FDNY Assistant Chief Joseph Callan: "Approximately 40 minutes after I arrived in the lobby, I made a decision that the building was no longer safe. And that was based on the conditions in the lobby, large pieces of plaster falling, all the 20 foot high glass panels on the exterior of the lobby were breaking. There was obvious movement of the building, and that was the reason on the handy talky I gave the order for all Fire Department units to leave the north tower." Source

Callan: "For me to make the decision to take our firefighters out of the building with civilians still in it, that was very tough for me, but I did that because I did not think the building was safe any longer, and that was just prior to 9:30."–Source

There was obvious movement of the building, and that was the reason on the handy talky I gave the order for all Fire Department units to leave the north tower.

"obivious movement of the building"

These are clues that the structure is becoming unstable and starting to twist out of alignment.

Something all FF are taught to notice - subtle clues that something is not
right.

I certified as a fire safety officer which means on the fire ground I am
supposed to watch for just such things as rafters in attic shaking or windows breaking.

Here are some more quotes

"upper floors are collapsing"

Have indicated relevant phrases

So what part do you have problem understanding ?

No, thanks. No need. You responded to billybob saying he knew the buildings fall was suspicious as soon as he saw it and you mockingly shot back

I'm glad you got good marks in Physics. So did I. So did the people who went over all the information and forensic evidence. They weren't immediatley sure what happened.

But you were.

The firemen other people on the scene got a different impression of what happened, as well. The buiding were hit by planes. Uncontrolled fires and critical structural beams weakend to the point they couldn't hold their loads caused collapses. Steel weakens with increased heat. We learned that in physics.

You are claiming that the firemen knew the buildings were damaged so much that they were going to come down. I was just wondering how, when it never ever ever happened ever before and should not have been expected to happen ever, the firemen were so certain.

Originally posted by CameronFox
I'm sure all the tin-capped folks will be all over this claiming the government had this made as propaganda.

Well since the video posted in the Jonathan Cole thread proves, Nat Geo really fudged up that thermite demonstration.

175 pounds of the stuff they used, and they couldn't even achieve what a guy in his back yard did with less than 5 pounds of thermite + a couple other additives.


This thread, and Nat Geo, have been proven as "fail" as "CameronFox" 's avatar.

reply to post by bsbray11


Well I hope the tellie was lying, because if the tellie is not lying, a lot of people are going to die in 2012 according to fox news.