Top 50 living US War Criminals, and how to find them

Originally posted by fluffy
reply to post by nine-eyed-eel

 

By the way, is your post even relevant?
I like it how you're not really adding anything constructive to the original post.

I think my post consists of me sneering at the whole project of the 50 war criminals snitch fist, the naming of Mary Matalin as a war criminal, the very concept of war crimes (both in general and in this particular instance where it is ludicrously loosely applied, i.e. a legal opinion saying torture is okay is an IDEA, a sincere neutral intellectual appraisal (it is neither an order to commit torture, nor the actual commission of torture by the torturer himself), and there should be no illegal ideas, all ideas are free, all ideas are allowed (to insist otherwise is to deny ourselves the use of our only tool HUMAN REASON - that never turns out well)), and more broadly the post attempts to derisively mimic the underlying mindset of persons who could excite themselves by engaging in this cheap fingerpointing 50 war criminals exercise in moral superiority and collectivist-nobody revenge-theory...the philosophy behind the whole miniseries is incorrect (unless hypocritical), lame, non-survival-oriented, no fun and bad...

So all that does make the post seem relevant to me.

You are right however that the post was (pretty much) not constructive...In order to be constructive, I would have to (so to speak) re-educate you, that is to say I would have to fall back and keep on falling back until we came to a (basic, early) place where we were in fundamental agreement, and then argue over the merits of the subsequent steps where we then later diverged...which in this case would probably require six months locked up together...absent all that quality Socratic dialogue time I am just driving by yelling "YOU ARE SO WRONG" out the window of my car...That is only a little bit constructive, for sure.

Oh nine-eyed-eel I am so terribly sorry to have put up a list of criminals, please forgive me!

You're right, I should be, like you, sneering at the list and laughing at the concept of war crimes and, most importantly, I should be trying to justify those people's actions in the list as merely giving out neutral intellectual ideas

Furthermore, keep using nice incoherent statements that attempt to show your intellectual superior such as:

the post attempts to derisively mimic the underlying mindset of persons who could excite themselves by engaging in this cheap fingerpointing 50 war criminals exercise in moral superiority and collectivist-nobody revenge-theory...the philosophy behind the whole miniseries is incorrect (unless hypocritical), lame, non-survival-oriented, no fun and bad...

I think zoggz was right on the mark saying you don't make any sense at all, while also emphasizing that your arguments are fallacious.

What I like most, though, is your conclusion:

You are right however that the post was (pretty much) not constructive...In order to be constructive, I would have to (so to speak) re-educate you, that is to say I would have to fall back and keep on falling back until we came to a (basic, early) place where we were in fundamental agreement, and then argue over the merits of the subsequent steps where we then later diverged...which in this case would probably require six months locked up together...absent all that quality Socratic dialogue time I am just driving by yelling "YOU ARE SO WRONG" out the window of my car...That is only a little bit constructive, for sure.

This is indeed impressive, and shows how intelligent you are I particularly like the fact that you spend so long talking about nothing (in an attempt to show how you would re-educate me). And you conclude from this that "(it) is only a little bit constructive, for sure"? Haha, what's that supposed to mean. It actually isn't constructive in the slightest, and you haven't even given me one bit of relevant or factual information to back yourself up. All you've done is prove my point that you're doing nothing but bringing irrelevant discussion onto this thread in order to support your ideals (that Americans are incapable of committing any wrongs).

And, going by your theory (that these people haven't done anything wrong at all), then if I made a reciprocal list about the "enemies" you are facing, would that also be an abomination? If so, then you are contradicting yourself with your fanciful idealism.

[edit on 21/8/09 by fluffy]

reply to post by fluffy


Oh no, I am not saying that Americans cannot commit any wrongs.

What I am saying (now that I think about it) is that, more than likely, the people on that list have not done anything much to you in particular...

And that if you correctly identified the main persons who were or are causing problems in your life, the persons who you could act upon in a doable practical way which would result in the greatest real day-to-day benefit in your life and in you becoming a more functional and powerful person...that list of persons that you (thus) ought to be striving to effect, probably, does not overlap with the list of 50 war criminals (unless that evil Mary Matalin is always stealing your parking space, or something)...

So the fact that you are getting wrought up (and probably in the case of some of the 50 unjustly so, but I will stipulate that they all did what you said, whatever) emotionally about something that has no real bearing on your life, shows that you have incorrectly displaced your emotions from your actual problem areas onto a symbolic (equals inappropriate) target...

You are thinking magically, all these far-away war criminals are symbolic, virtually irrelevant, and anything that happens to them or any way that you can jack-up your self-concept by brooding on them can only result in a limited improvement in your life, compared to what you could achieve by attacking those on your "50 Local Problem People For Fluffy" list...

The fact that you're crying out for blood, (or worse, "justice") about something that is part of the spectacle, that you are aligning yourself with a goody-good, suck-up, hypocritical, illusory conception of virtue and of political life, gosh, it's like a cry for help..."Let's get them faraway criminals," but that won't help you get your own back...If you were thinking right, you wouldn't worry about getting them distant evil war criminals...You would be more evil, and acting more effectively, you would (oh, lookey-here) have turned into something very much like the fluffy's-local-area version/equivalent of a war criminal yourself...

Now isn't that a change we can believe in?
Or would you rather be "too good" to take care of yourself, and thus then continue to always sadly and forlornly be barking that you are surrounded by evil (and "crime", and "inhumane", and "incoherent", and oh-poor-me et cetera).

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel
reply to post by fluffy

 

What I am saying (now that I think about it) is that, more than likely, the people on that list have not done anything much to you in particular...

And that if you correctly identified the main persons who were or are causing problems in your life, the persons who you could act upon in a doable practical way which would result in the greatest real day-to-day benefit in your life & in you becoming a more functional and powerful person...that list of persons that you (thus) ought to be striving to effect, probably, does not overlap with the list of 50 war criminals (unless that evil Mary Matalin is always stealing your parking space)...

Wow. You have completely missed the purpose of this thread.

Your attempt to discredit me has turned into a laughable "the capturing of these people won't benefit me so why am I even mentioning them??" What a weak, weak attempt to justify your posts as being relevant to this topic.

You have demonstrated your viewpoint, and that is that you are an Ethical Egoist. If you are unaware of what this is, it's a theory of morality that is defined as having no duties to others but only to oneself, and that each person ought to pursue his or her own self-interest exclusively. This is the morality of selfishness, and I do not agree with you based on these reasons:

a) Consider these wicked actions, taken from various newspaper stories: Parents fed a baby acid so they could fake a lawsuit, claiming the baby's formula was tainted. A 73-year-old man kept his daughter locked in a cellar for 24 years and fathered seven children with her, against her will. A 60-year-old man shot his letter carrier seven times because he was $90k in debt and thought that being in federal prison would be better than being homeless.

Suppose that someone could actually benefit by doing such things. As an Ethical Egoist, you would have to approve of this.

b) Ethical Egoism is a moral theory that advocates that each of us divide the world into two categories of people - ourselves and everyone else - and that we regard the interests of those in the first group as more important than the interests of those in the second group. But each of us can ask, What is the difference between me and everyone else that justifies placing myself in this special category? Am I more intelligent? Are my accomplishments greater? Do I enjoy life more? Are my needs or abilities different from the needs or abilities of others? In short, what makes me so special? Failing an answer, it turns out that Ethical Egoism is an arbitrary doctrine, in the same way that racism is arbitrary. Both doctrines violate the Principle of Equal Treatment.

Thus, nine-eyed-eel, you should stop being so naïve and realize that we should care about the interests of other people because their needs and desires are comparable to our own. Consider that you are an innocent person being maliciously tortured as a result of one of the people on the list (and don't try and deny this because it is documented that they had considerable power in aiding this practice). Why should we care about them? We care about ourselves, of course (this is something you can relate to ..but now, to expand your mind) - if we were being tortured like this, we would do almost anything to get out of this position and to make sure it did not happen again, while also wanting retribution for those responsible. But what is the difference between us and them (and remember, they're innocent)? Does torture affect them any less? Are they less deserving than we are? If we can find no relevant difference between us and them, then we must admit that, if our needs should be met, then so should theirs.

So, If you wanted a philosophical debate, then now you have one.
Your ethical egoist viewpoint fails, though.

reply to post by fluffy


Every logical structure/point-of-view/philosophy is arbitrary...that's a non-cogent objection to bring against any particular schema, since they all must ultimately depend on some arbitrary, a priori first principle or axiom that cannot be proved since it had to be assumed before you could then go on to prove anything else.

But I'm actually going to leave you alone now, this is your thread, and I'm starting to feel tiresome like I should just shut up and leave.

Good luck with your war criminal eradication drive...It should be fun for both of us, won't it, to see how it all turns out...

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel
reply to post by fluffy

 

Every logical structure/point-of-view/philosophy is arbitrary...that's a non-cogent objection to bring against any particular schema, since they all must ultimately depend on some arbitrary, a priori first principle or axiom that cannot be proved since it had to be assumed before you could then go on to prove anything else.

But I'm actually going to leave you alone now, this is your thread, and I'm starting to feel tiresome like I should just shut up and leave.

Good luck with your war criminal eradication drive...It should be fun for both of us, won't it, to see how it all turns out...

Is that all you have? Again, you show how weak your argument is (and might I add, you're not proving yourself to be more intelligent by using words such as "schema" and "axiom").

Yes, I agree that everything is ultimately based on inductive reasoning and assumptions, but putting it like you have you're basically saying that you don't believe in anything. And you know, that's just ridiculous.

I did use the word arbitrary, but I didn't just use that word to prove my point. I also gave you a lot of reasons as to why your viewpoint was entirely misguided. In none of your posts have you actually posted anything that was at all relevant, or of importance, or that was backed up with any facts. Moreover, your writing style is barely coherent.

And do you know the real reason why you're going to leave this thread now? Because you realize that you don't have anything else to say; you realize that you never actually did have anything to say except how bad I am for putting up a list that goes against your irrational ideals. You've also told me that I would be much better off reverting to Ethical Egoism because I'm the only one that matters, not other people.

Posting on this thread to convert me to Ethical Egoism is just naïve, and you should really try to expand your viewpoint and understand that you are not the only one on this planet. Obviously you couldn't come up with a good enough reason to prove that those people should not be on that list, so you changed your argument to something much more irrelevant by telling me why I shouldn't care about the people that do those things.

And your final statement saying "Good luck with your war criminal eradication drive" is patronizing and just proves your arrogance and selfishness.

Furthermore, you stating

It should be fun for both of us, won't it, to see how it all turns out

makes this issue look like a game for you. I mean, it's fine by me if you ignore this thread because you don't care about this issue, but purposely posting in an attempt to get less people to care about world issues and more people concerned about their "local" issues is just insane.

That's akin to telling people not to look on this site because there's information about things that won't "physically" affect them. Now that, my friend, is moronic.

By nine-eyed-eel's ideology, no ordinary American should have gone to Iraq to prevent Hussein selling oil for €uros, because, whilst they would benefit personally to the tune of, initially, about 1/3 of the value of every US$ they spent on foreign imports, this in itself merely props up the ability of US corporations to keep American wages some of the lowest in the developed world, by creating an incentive to outsource American jobs overseas, thus creating the position where employers can tell employees "take a pay freeze again, or we'll close down & move our business abroad." In effect y'all have been fighting to be made unemployed &/or be paid less in real terms.
Add to that the personal risk & it's a "no brainer".

Great thread and glad to see somebody is not afraid to post this information.

Starred and flagged.

The USA has a lot of evil in its midst. Some of these people on the list deserve nothing less than jail.

Evil bastards.

EDIT - Wow reading through some of these posts - It seems these ex-marine types are seriously messed up if they fail to see the corruption at the top of the heirarchy.

I guess some people just don't like being cannon fodder for the rich kids. Deny it as much as you want, that's EXACTLY what frustrates you - especially when you see peace loving people criticise your chosen way of life.

Yes you'll cry for dead brothers in arms and you'll blame the opponents, but you won't blame the fools who happily send you to your deaths. You'll attack the liberals and you'll attack the 'civvies' for not wanting to go to war, but you FAIL to see just how much crap rolls down hill.

Like any of you even give half a damn about Iraq anyway....


[edit on 22-8-2009 by mr-lizard]

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel
reply to post by fluffy

 

What I am saying (now that I think about it) is that, more than likely, the people on that list have not done anything much to you in particular...

And that if you correctly identified the main persons who were or are causing problems in your life, the persons who you could act upon in a doable practical way which would result in the greatest real day-to-day benefit in your life and in you becoming a more functional and powerful person...that list of persons that you (thus) ought to be striving to effect, probably, does not overlap with the list of 50 war criminals (unless that evil Mary Matalin is always stealing your parking space, or something)...

Just had to add that if you do truly go by this ideology, why are you even commenting on this thread (or, in the manner that you are)? I am sure your post is not "identif(ying) the main persons who were or are causing problems in your life, the persons who you could act upon in a doable practical way which would result in the greatest real day-to-day benefit in your life and in you becoming a more functional and powerful person".

So, my question is what was your purpose on this thread?

Oh. Thought so.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Great thread and glad to see somebody is not afraid to post this information.

Starred and flagged.

The USA has a lot of evil in its midst. Some of these people on the list deserve nothing less than jail.

Evil bastards.

EDIT - Wow reading through some of these posts - It seems these ex-marine types are seriously messed up if they fail to see the corruption at the top of the heirarchy.

I guess some people just don't like being cannon fodder for the rich kids. Deny it as much as you want, that's EXACTLY what frustrates you - especially when you see peace loving people criticise your chosen way of life.

Yes you'll cry for dead brothers in arms and you'll blame the opponents, but you won't blame the fools who happily send you to your deaths. You'll attack the liberals and you'll attack the 'civvies' for not wanting to go to war, but you FAIL to see just how much crap rolls down hill.

Like any of you even give half a damn about Iraq anyway....


[edit on 22-8-2009 by mr-lizard]

Well said

The people that are opposing the original post in the manner that has occurred are indeed seriously messed up and in denial about the whole situation. You said it exactly like it is: a hierarchy. People need to acknowledge this and come to their senses.

I hope those people whose personal info you posted online sue the crap outta you. *SNIP*

Mod Edit: Watch the language -cheers, Alien

[edit on 5-9-2009 by alien]

Originally posted by Danang71
I hope those people whose personal info you posted online sue the crap outta you. Get a f***ing life!

How old are you, 5? All I did was post a link to a site that is dedicated to bringing justice to those people who think they are too high and mighty to get in trouble for anything they're doing because they aren't "physically" committing any wrongs.

And note the website was already set up before I made this thread, I didn't post any personal info myself. You need to get a life, and by the looks of it an education, before you come posting on here again. I hope you get sued for dropping out of school and wasting tax payers' money. I'm not the one that needs to get a life

The lack of your response is deafening, a**hole. That you won't respond speaks volumes to me and to the other participants in this post. You don't respond because you can't. Good luck with your Obama agenda, but you will find that more and more of us have awakened and are in no mood to further the agenda of the Dear Leader.

Grea post OP,that list is full of criminals who will get away with it-we all know that.I can only hope they all wake up one day out side the green zone in Iraq to get their real justice.

LOL at the post above me,cant say a lot as the red warning tags would be attached to my name like limpets.

Gotta google for a bassist,I might know the year he was born if i can track down that 5 string I can put his details online and get sued!

Dont worry mate I wouldnt waste time on you

Once again great post OP

Originally posted by Danang71

Originally posted by fluffy

Originally posted by Danang71
I hope those people whose personal info you posted online sue the crap outta you. Get a f***ing life!

You need to get a life, and by the looks of it an education, before you come posting on here again. I hope you get sued for dropping out of school and wasting tax payers' money.

I'm not the one that needs to get a life

Actually, I'm probably older than you are, have more advanced degrees than you do, and most certainly have a higher IQ than you do. The fact that sniveling hand wringers like you find no fault with the monsters who perpetrate murder and mayhem on innocent civilians, but instead want to persecute and prosecute those who are keeping your whining butts safe is simply beyond comprehension.

How many American lives is it OK to you morons for us to lose just so we won't offend the dignity of some blood sucking animal who's plotting to kill more? By all accounts, the mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed didn't reveal any information until he had some water forced up his nose, after which he started singing like a canary. How many more Americans or Britons do you think would have died had he not been waterboarded, or do you care?

Furthermore, you try posting my personal information like that, even if it is second hand, and I'll sue you so fast for everything you own (which probably isn't much) it'll make your little pin head spin. I sincerely hope the people whose personal info you posted here do the same.

Pansy hand-wringers like you make me sick with all the bile you spew about "civil rights of the combatants" and accusing the people, who keep you safe enough to be able to spout your nonsense, of being criminals. You were probably one of the morons who fell for Barack Obama's campaign lies about what all good he was gonna do and how he was gonna stop the war. How's that working out for ya?

[edit on 1-9-2009 by Danang71]

[edit on 1-9-2009 by Danang71]

[edit on 1-9-2009 by Danang71]

Thanks noangels, I agree with you, I mean look at this guy ^



Danang, where do I start?? You make it too easy.

The fact that sniveling hand wringers like you find no fault with the monsters who perpetrate murder and mayhem on innocent civilians, but instead want to persecute and prosecute those who are keeping your whining butts safe is simply beyond comprehension.

I never said that I find no fault with the monsters who perpetrate murder and mayhem on innocent civilians..on the contrary, I find a lot of fault in them (and that includes not only them but YOU and other people in the American army that are supposedly fighting for America how contradictory of you to say that, then). However, it's not effective to simply target one or two of these individuals because other people will continue to commit their atrocities as they are all under the same orders. That's why this list is more important because it names people who can actually affect what the orders are and will continue to be.

I'm probably older than you are, have more advanced degrees than you do, and most certainly have a higher IQ than you do.

You aren't demonstrating this, so if you want me to believe you then stop belittling yourself. I'm not the one swearing with *'s like a 5-year old.

By all accounts, the mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed didn't reveal any information until he had some water forced up his nose, after which he started singing like a canary

While I agree this may have been effective, it does not mean it is ok to do this to everyone in a war. It's easy to justify these acts by looking at a case like this, but I don't see you talking about any innocent people you have tortured. And don't be naive and just say everyone who has been waterboarded is guilty, even documents show this is not the case.

Originally posted by Danang71Furthermore, you try posting my personal information like that, even if it is second hand, and I'll sue you so fast for everything you own (which probably isn't much) it'll make your little pin head spin. I sincerely hope the people whose personal info you posted here do the same.

Seriously, cry me a river? Going by your logic you should probably be suing most people on the internet Please oh worthy ones sue me for posting a link to a website that gives details to "private and discreet" workplaces such as public regional universities. I think you should refer to noangels post again, but then again you aren't really worth his time.

Originally posted by Danang71
Pansy hand-wringers like you make me sick with all the bile you spew about "civil rights of the combatants" and accusing the people, who keep you safe enough to be able to spout your nonsense, of being criminals. You were probably one of the morons who fell for Barack Obama's campaign lies about what all good he was gonna do and how he was gonna stop the war. How's that working out for ya?

Actually no, I didn't fall for Barack Obama's campaign lies. Once again, you're wrong. And contrary to your beliefs, you aren't god Nice try, though.

Originally posted by Danang71
The lack of your response is deafening, a**hole. That you won't respond speaks volumes to me and to the other participants in this post. You don't respond because you can't. Good luck with your Obama agenda, but you will find that more and more of us have awakened and are in no mood to further the agenda of the Dear Leader.

Oh 5-year old, please stop. You're embarrassing yourself now. Trying to digress and transform this post into a pro-Obama thread is just laughable Just like the others who have opposed this thread, you can't quite stay on-topic and resort to irrelevant material. Well done.

Poor chaps banned now fluffy!lol

Good to see the mods delete that rancid post of his,well done chaps

I wonder how those guys are doing now?

Seems as though they've gotten away with all that they've done..

Why are people in this thread talking about oil and Obama?

It took all of one response to start troll baiting everyone in this thread for a near utter derailment.

Anyway..

Funny thing about these people is, for the most part, the entire establishment circa 2001-2005 is almost defunct. If anyone, and I mean anyone, spent any time bringing these guys into the spotlight, they would have absolutely no defense whatsoever. The gears haven't turned as fast as they did in the "terror days" for about 2 years now.

If someone organized a better effort than pulling pranks in a classroom, maybe we would see something done. I mean, Mr. Yoo, for example, is dead in the water. There is no one to defend this man should he be put under the spotlight, and he knows it. The man is a coward, through and through. He'll be lucky to have Beck & O'Reilly and friends to support him.

Someone needs to get serious about this, and cut away the awkward comedy. The crimes are not funny, and deserve no jest. It literally reminds me of lowly peasant jesters in feudal times, being forced to mock themselves instead of questioning authority. Displaying the people as nothing. There needs to be anger, and fury.