Hitler was a Godsend for Israel...

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
Guys, I think Neo-V means Israel as a state, and as a political entity, not the majority of the people who live there.

Look, I've been what you would call a conspiracy theorist since about 1998, and there wasn't one theory that I wouldn't at least look briefly in to, apart from "Israel". But since 9/11 the subject has been unavoidable for me, and it's from looking at Israel, and their influence on World politics, especially U.S Foriegn Policy that I now have the views I do, none of which include the eradication of a whole race/nation of people.


reply to post by JJay55

Why should they, when the Palestinian Arabs already have land, but it's interesting that you question why Jordan wont give them a home, but not Israel who are the ones taking their homes. And btw, the Palestinian Arabs, have never, and probably will never have the capacity to do any damage to Israel, as evident by Israel's last invasion, it's a bit like the the whole of Britain Vs Cornwall. And no one is claiming it was Hitler who came up with the idea, however, were it not for Germany and the Zionist collaboration, Israel might not be what it is today. I can see how it's hard to take in, that the ones responsible for the deaths of millions of Jewish people, also helped in creating a homeland for them.

The Zionist movement is and always has been the collective will among the Jewish Diaspora to create a safe haven in their historical and ancestral homeland, free from the endless persecution, pogroms, and prejudice that they have suffered at the hands of their hosts in Europe, Russia, and Muslim countries (which still exists to this day, and is very evident on these forums). It was aided and financed by wealthy philanthropists such as Rothschild and charitable organisations around the world.

Unlike the rest of us, who have either forgotten or don't really care about our ancestral roots, the Jews have a long memory and an unbroken heritage that goes back 3,000+ years. The Torah is filled with stories and parables which take place in historical sites in Israel. Jerusalem is sacred to the Jewish people as Mecca is to Islam and the Vatican is to Catholics - not just as a religious symbol but also as a symbol of their heritage. Around the world, for centuries, Jews have had a traditional toast which says "next year in Jerusalem".

The first migrations started in 1882, and Hitler hadn't been born at that stage, let alone started his plot to have European Jewry exterminated.

Subsequent immigrants came from Yemen in the late 19th century, then from Russia between 1904 and 1914. There was a marked increase in migration from Central Europe in 1933, when Hitler came to power.

So what I'd really like to know is what people like Donnie Darko and Neo-V find quite so sinister and objectionable about the Zionist movement? Do you reject the Jews' right to settle in their ancestral homeland? Do you think the area should be Arab only, as the PLO do? Should they live under Arab sufferance as second class citizens? Or do you think they should have stayed where they were to be butchered by their hosts, or kept in servility? Or should they have given up their culture, heritage, religion and assimilated?

For me the Zionist movement is one of the greatest undertakings in all of human history, and I for one salute them and wish them the very best. It is an inspiration to humanity that one of the most oppressed peoples in the world can join together to migrate and build their own country, farms, agriculture out of the desert. The troubles in the region are the direct result of the surrounding Arab countries' continuous refusal to accept the presence of a Jewish state within what they consider to be Arab and Muslim land, which has been a common theme for the last 80 years. This has manifested itself in agitated riots, murder, war and state sponsored terrorism directed at civilians (both Israeli and American).

But the Jews have fought back, refusing obstinately to disappear as many people around them wish them to (and many in the West it seems). Israel's existence has been a struggle from the very beginning. Now they have the upper hand, secure borders, world class counter-terrorism expertise and peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, and with our good will they have a very real opportunity to extend that peace and security to other countries such as Syria and Iran, which will benefit the people living under those regimes as much as it will the Israelis.

Originally posted by Neo-V™
Why should they, when the Palestinian Arabs already have land, but it's interesting that you question why Jordan wont give them a home, but not Israel who are the ones taking their homes. And btw, the Palestinian Arabs, have never, and probably will never have the capacity to do any damage to Israel, as evident by Israel's last invasion, it's a bit like the the whole of Britain Vs Cornwall.

I bet you didn't know that there are 330,000 refugees from the 1948 still living in refugee camps in Jordan?

I bet you also didn't know that Jordan has recently revoked their Jordanian citizenship in the hope of making them Israel's problem? They now need to carry a special coloured ID tag, which gets revoked if they don't return to the West Bank within a certain time period.

I bet you didn't know that Jordan occupied the West Bank for nearly 20 years and didn't lift a finger to rehouse the refugees living there?

I bet you also didn't know that Egypt occupied Gaza for the same period, and also did nothing to help the refugees out of their camps?

I bet you also didn't know that Lebanon has 422,000 refugees living in UNRWA camps from the same war, who have also been kept in squalor and misery for the last 60 years?

I bet you didn't know that Gaza has been autonomously governed by the PLO (and more recently, Hamas) since the Oslo accords in 1993? Yet the refugees still remain. Why?

Or that the Palestinian areas of Judea and Samaria have been autonomously governed by the PLO since the same date. Yet the refugee camps are still there. Why?

I bet there's quite a lot you don't know.

And I bet you still think all the problems are Israel's fault.

Originally posted by mattpryor
which still exists to this day, and is very evident on these forums

Has Israel never committed any atrocities?

Originally posted by mattpryor
So what I'd really like to know is what people like Donnie Darko and Neo-V find quite so sinister and objectionable about the Zionist movement?

It's obvious influence on World politics, let alone it's excuse to treat the Palestinians, not too differently as to how the Jews were treated in Germany.

Those who today murdered our people in an ambush not only plotted to murder some Jews but intended to provoke us... The Arabs stand to gain from such a development. They want the country to be in a state of perpetual pogrom.... Any further bloodshed [by the Jews] will only bring political advantage to the Arabs and harm us... Our strength is in the defense... and this strength will give us political victory if England and the world will know that we are defending ourselves rather than attacking.

- David Ben Gurion

I have no problem with them defending themselves, but it would seem they're the ones who always strike first with the excuse that because of the Holocaust any one who dislikes or citizens them, must want to attack or destroy them. It's happening now with Iran, it's Israel who wants that war, and it will be us who ends up fighting it.

Originally posted by mattpryor
Do you reject the Jews' right to settle in their ancestral homeland?

No, as stated once or twice already.

Originally posted by mattpryor
Do you think the area should be Arab only, as the PLO do?"

No.

Originally posted by mattpryor
Should they live under Arab sufferance as second class citizens?

No, but the irony is the Arabs live under Israeli sufferance as second class citizens.

Originally posted by mattpryor
This has manifested itself in agitated riots, murder, war and state sponsored terrorism directed at civilians (both Israeli and American).

As they knew it would?...

jewsagainstzionism.com
Zionism, by advocating a political and military end to the Jewish exile, denies the very essence of our Diaspora existence. We are in exile by Divine Decree and may emerge from exile solely via Divine Redemption. All human efforts to alter a metaphysical reality are doomed to end in failure and bloodshed. History has clearly borne out this teaching.

Originally posted by mattpryor
I bet you didn't know that there are 330,000 refugees from the 1948 still living in refugee camps in Jordan?

Yes I did. Can you just remind me why they're there, and why they haven't gone back?

Originally posted by mattpryor
I bet you also didn't know that Jordan has recently revoked their Jordanian citizenship in the hope of making them Israel's problem?

Again, they already had land, and they wouldn't be a problem for Israel had they been more accommodating, or ensured they had somewhere to go.

Originally posted by mattpryor
And I bet you still think all the problems are Israel's fault.

Some ones refusal to offer help doesn't make them the cause of the problem.

What people fail to recognise is that Israel owes its very existence as a Jewish State to massive ethnic cleansing. The overall picture is undisputed: In 1948, there were about 600.000 Jews in Palestine. The number of Palestinians driven out from the territory taken by Israel in 1947-1949 is estimated at 600.000 to 720.000 (says the nationalistic Israeli historian Benny Morris in his authoritative The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem); about 100.000 Palestinians, a.k.a Israeli Arabs, remained. Without driving most of the Arabs out, then, or without prohibiting their return after the war, no Jewish majority could have been established.

This information is not part of the Israeli collective consciousness. Israelis confronted with it would deny it, often out of true ignorance. Everybody in Israel knows that many Arabs left in 1948. There is some controversy among laymen about whether they fled the war zone spontaneously ("their own fault"), were encouraged to leave by Arab leaders, or were expelled; experts agree that all three factors played a role. Older people still remember "that Arab village down the road, that was erased once the inhabitants left". But the extent of the Palestinian exodus, especially in proportion to the Jewish population, is virtually suppressed.

The Price of Denial

When denial is no longer possible, Israel-supporters faced with this information tend to take refuge in an accusation like "so you deny Israel’s right to exist". This procedure is logically, morally, and practically wrong.
Logically wrong, because what was born in sin does not necessarily lose its right to exist. Some people claim we were all born in sin, yet they do not demand that we all commit suicide. Few people would deny the crimes committed against Native Americans, yet I never heard that the US should be dismantled because of them.

Morally wrong, because recognising historical facts should not depend on their political implications. One cannot deny a fact simply because one does not like its consequences.

And, finally, practically wrong, because if Israelis were aware of the ethnic cleansing of 1948, they would not be so eager to try this abortive "solution" once again. I doubt how many Israelis would think repeating the crime is a good way to peace, if they were aware of the fact that the hundreds of thousands driven out in 1948 have now grown into millions of refugees along Israel’s borders, whose hatred towards Israel and whose desire to return home have been nurtured by decades of humiliation and discrimination in Lebanon, Syria or Jordan.

Just like we demand the Arabs to recognise the Holocaust, recognising the ethnic cleansing of 1948 is a precondition to reconciliation. As long as most (pro-) Israelis deny it, Israel is in danger of repeating it. Since Israel’s political system is run by former generals responsible for the ethnic cleansing of 1948, since the military echelon is run by their devoted disciples, warnings of Israel’s intentions to repeat the crime in the (possibly near) future should be taken very seriously.

Source

[edit on 20/8/2009 by Neo-V™]

Originally posted by Neo-V™

Hitler was a Godsend for Israel...

I am no fan of the policies of the State of Israel, but even I take offence at the title of this thread. It trivializes the evil and insanity of genocide. I think it is shameful, unless the course of this thread is to offer rebuke...which I doubt.

No sense in replying as I won't be following either the thread or the responses. Some things just need to be stated.

Ernst Hanfstaengl, a close friend of Franklin Roosevelt, was also a close associate of Hitler before the war, says he was warned by the Austrian writer, Rudolf Kommer that, “if any political party emerges with an Anti-Semitic programme directed by Jewish or half Jewish fanatics, we shall have to watch out”.

Hanfstaengl wrote that later, after experiencing the influence that Alfred Rosenberg had on Hitler, he began to realise what that remark really meant:

"I thought back to Rudolph Kommer’s remark about an Anti-Semitic programme directed by Jewish or half – Jewish fanatics – Rosenberg was distinctly Jewish in appearance, although he would have been the first to protest furiously if anyone had questioned his ancestry. Yet I used to see him most mornings sitting in a dingy café at the corner of Briennerstrasse and Augustenstrasse with a Hungarian Jew named Holoschi, who was one of his principle assistants. The man called himself Hollander in Germany and was another of these Jewish Anti-Semites…I suspected the Aryan background of many of the others, Strasser and Streicher looked Jewish to me as well as figures like Ley, Frank and even Goebbels, who would have difficulty in proving their pedigree.”

So the creation of hatred towards the Jewish race, then the grotesque treatment that followed Hitler’s decrees, was hyped to enormous proportions to justify the takeover of Palestine for a Jewish Homeland. No one used this method more than Lord Victor Rothschild in his House of Lords speeches urging support for a Jewish State in Palestine. You can see the play by the elite clearly here. To add further to this, Hitler’s book Mein Kampf, was ghost written by Major General Karl Haushofer, who acknowledged that a major source for the ‘ideas’ it expressed came from Halford J. MacKinder, a director of the elite’s London School of Economics.

In 1996, official German documents uncovered by an American student also proved that many of Hitler’s leading officers and thousands of his troops were of Jewish decent. You can now understand why Britain appeased Hitler. The elite had to make sure the re-armament of Germany went un-headed. Only when Hitler’s war machine was ready would the stance of Britain change.

Source

reply to post by mattpryor

If the "religious" claim of the Zionists is true that they were to be led to the promised land by their messiah, and Israel's present occupation of Arab Palestine is the fulfilment of that prophesy: where is their messiah whom their prophets said would get the credit for leading them there? It was Ralph Bunche who "negotiated" the Zionists into possession of Occupied Palestine! Is Ralph Bunche the messiah of Zionism? If Ralph Bunche is not their messiah, and their messiah has not yet come, then what are they doing in Palestine ahead of their messiah?

Did the Zionists have the legal or moral right to invade Arab Palestine, uproot its Arab citizens from their homes and seize all Arab property for themselves just based on the "religious" claim that their forefathers lived there thousands of years ago? Only a thousand years ago the Moors lived in Spain. Would this give the Moors of today the legal and moral right to invade the Iberian Peninsula, drive out its Spanish citizens, and then set up a new Moroccan nation ... where Spain used to be, as the European Zionists have done to our Arab brothers and sisters in Palestine?...

In short the Zionist argument to justify Israel's present occupation of Arab Palestine has no intelligent or legal basis in history ... not even in their own religion. Where is their Messiah?

- Malcolm X

[edit on 21/8/2009 by Neo-V™]