Masons and conspiracy theories

Originally posted by Leveller
I don't know how many times you want it refuted, you won't listen to the answer anyway.
The "Fellowcraft Club" in NY was a club that these guys had set up for themselves that was not sanctioned by Freemasonry. The ritual that they worked was not sanctioned by Freemasonry.

A snip from the article Leveller posted, again.

Throughout the United States, in fact, there are many 'clubs' composed of lodge members whose primary purpose is to provide a 'club' environment within the lodge building. They go under a variety of names: "Square & Compass Club", "Lunchtime Club", "Fellowcraft Club", and sometimes a name specifically related to something local: the "Abanaki Club" in Augusta, Maine comes to mind, and some have clubs named after the lodge which occupies the building such as the Blazing Star Club.

Just because a few Masons decide to make their own club and do their own thing does not mean it was sactioned, approved, or even known about by the Grand Lodge. I would imagine that the members of that particular lodge knew of the club, but probably didn't know what kind of "initiation" was involved if they weren't members themselves.

On top of that, freudling, you keep saying that this supposedly goes back 70 years. All that means is that the "Fellowcraft Club" at that particular lodge has been around for that long, assuming that the information is accurate. And if the had been doing that particular initiation for that long, this is certainly the first time anything had gone wrong. Can you agree with that at least?

I'm not trying to justify or take away from what happened, don't misunderstand me, I just want you to step back and look at what you are saying, and then look at the facts surrounding the case. If you look at the big picture, it's pretty easy to see that this was one tragic but isolated incident.


[edit on 3/2/05 by The Axeman]

I appreciate the trouble you went to researching this topic. To me it shows that after many discussions on this topic that you are still open to the fact that the newspaper articles could be misrepresentative of the truth

Looking at the last paragraph of your post we see:

Originally posted by freudling

As it sits, in order to sway any logical person's stance on this case, somebody has to prove that Mayo's comments were mis-paraphrased, and that the non-defining relative clause is not supposed to be there. Somebody also has to prove that the Wintesses who said the firing ritual goes back 70 years are lying. Somebody also has to shed light on why on earth a man would carry a loaded gun in one pocket during a ritual.

[edit on 2-3-2005 by freudling]

On the first issue Mayo being mis-paraphrased, even you questioned the validity of that in your post. But the fact remains that what took place was not the innitiation rite of the 2nd degree which is the Fellow Craft. Not the Fellow Craft Club. I personally think that the quote was taken out of context or it was added by the author trying to either educate the layperson on Masonry or to "make" thier story with preconcieved notions about Freemasonry. One thing to keep in mind (especially with the NY Times) most newspapers won't easily admit fault or that they mis-reported something. In otherwords "Don't believe everything you read".

As far as the "ritual" for the club being over 70 years old... Nobody's saying that this club wasn't around that long. All we have been saying is that it is not a recognized part of Masonry. So really the age of the club is irrelavant.

Why this man carried a loaded weapon during the ritual is beyond me. But why he was carrying a weapon at all could be for personal protection to and from the meeting. New York does have a Concealed Weapons Law which permits people with a license to carry hand guns. So it maybe that he was licensed (I can't say that for sure) and that as was stated accidently pulled out the wrong weapon.

I should state that this was tragic event and my heart prayers go out to the families of all the parties involved. I in no way condone the action and honestly cannot understand how this event could've taken place.



[edit on 2-3-2005 by Golfie]

Golfie:

Good post Golfie. I too believe that Mayo was mis-paraphrased, but I don't have proof of that. Axeman and Leveller: just deal with the the witnesses, Mayo and Eid carrying the loaded gun. Don't repeat yourselves, as I have already dealt with those articles and know what they say: they do absolutely nothing to show Mayo was mis-paraphrased, and do not shed light on why Mayo was carrying a loaded gun in his pocket during a ritual. This is, of course, not my opinion but the facts, be they true or not. Further, I think it is clear that I have stepped back and gone to great lengths to get the truth. Show me a statement from Mayo saying he did not say what he said in the AP article and then that will help.

Originally posted by freudling
Golfie:

Good post Golfie. I too believe that Mayo was mis-paraphrased, but I don't have proof of that. Axeman and Leveller: just deal with the the witnesses, Mayo and Eid carrying the loaded gun. Don't repeat yourselves, as I have already dealt with those articles and know what they say: they do absolutely nothing to show Mayo was mis-paraphrased, and do not shed light on why Mayo was carrying a loaded gun in his pocket during a ritual. This is, of course, not my opinion but the facts, be they true or not. Further, I think it is clear that I have stepped back and gone to great lengths to get the truth. Show me a statement from Mayo saying he did not say what he said in the AP article and then that will help.

All they were saying was that the ritual they were performing was not that of the second 'fellowcraft' degree, but rather a ritual of their own 'fellowship club'. Nothing more.

Originally posted by freudling
I too believe that Mayo was mis-paraphrased, but I don't have proof of that. Axeman and Leveller: just deal with the the witnesses, Mayo and Eid carrying the loaded gun. Don't repeat yourselves, as I have already dealt with those articles and know what they say: they do absolutely nothing to show Mayo was mis-paraphrased, and do not shed light on why Mayo was carrying a loaded gun in his pocket during a ritual. This is, of course, not my opinion but the facts, be they true or not.

The fact is that I have posted a link 4 times in this thread that discusses why he was carrying a loaded gun. You clearly haven't read it.

Leveller:

I am tired of your BS. Can anybody show me proof that Mayo didn't say what he said? Here is a likely possibility of what actually happened:

Mayo was paraphrased as saying the ritual was part of a Masonic ritual into the second degree (Fellowcraft) Wintesses told police that the gun firing ritual goes back over 70 years. Masons came on the scene and publicly stated that it had nothing to do with Masonary, contradicting what Mayo supposedly said. The Masons also said it was a Fellowcraft Club, not an initiation into the Fellowcraft. Cough, forgive us sheeple, but it looks like the Masons are trying to cover up the ritual belonging to the second degree, introducing the "Fellowcraft Club." The AP article quoted statements made to Police and by Police. It did not, in anyway, make reference to a club within masonary called the Fellowcraft club. As for the ritual, from a sheeple's point of view, one explanation was that James failed the ritual and was given the real bullet to the head: this being part and parcel of the ritual - premeditated. Eid knew all along - it was a matter of Eid choosing which pocket. If the ritual is over 70 years old, perhaps it is older than the lodge itself and thus the so called Fellowcraft Club?

Some objections that can be raised in response to this murder being pre-meditated and part of Masonary. Why would Eid risk it? Well, at 76 years old, he is in the twilight of his life with not much to lose. He got no jail time (5 years probation), perhaps something he predicted before he murdered James. Why would Eid risk the negative press to the Masons? That is a good question, but as we can see, the Masons have somewhat successfully spun it in their favor so it is not that bad, although a smear nonetheless. Maybe his motive was to move up or something.

I have to say: if this happened in Central or Eastern Europe, Eid would be laughed at by saying it was an accident. That is the disturbing thing: Eid failed to say why he had the real loaded gun down in the basement.

These are not definitive conclusions, but rather, a possible explanation of what actually happened. Well, it is one of two main explanations: the other being it was a total accident. The above scenario cannot be refutued in anyway unless someone brings evidence to bear.

Couple more questions:

How old is the Fellowcraft club?
Anybody talk to witnesses personally?
How about the police?

Having thought about it over the past few days, I am leaning towards it not being a mere accident: there are way too many holes in this story. If Eid did plan this and it is part of masonary, does that mean I think Masonary is evil and blah blah? Absolutely not. That should be at the front here: we are investigating a crime, not whether this crime decides that Freemasonary is evil or not. I just want the truth. Even if somebody proved without a doubt Masonary to be evil, does that mean I will turn in my bed? No. I really don't care too much if you guys worship satan. However, if you are hurting other living things doing rituals, then I care and I don't go for that in anyway. Eid screwed up, that much is true. This stuff is rare, so I am not shunning Masonary over it. If it weren't rare, then I am sure that not only myself, but many others would chastise Masonary on a much grander scale.

[edit on 3-3-2005 by freudling]

Originally posted by freudling
Mayo was paraphrased as saying the ritual was part of a Masonic ritual into the second degree (Fellowcraft) Wintesses told police that the gun firing ritual goes back over 70 years.

The events as I understood was that the accident happened during a masonic ritual, correct. The firing ritual goes back over 70 years, as agreed by locals, correcet. The unofficial link is that the firing is part of the masonic ritual going back 70 years.

The firing ritual is a custom to the area not Freemasonry, and was incorporating into the event of their lodge.

Originally posted by freudling
Masons came on the scene and publicly stated that it had nothing to do with Masonary, contradicting what Mayo supposedly said.

Only contradicting what has been presumed.

Originally posted by freudlingThe Masons also said it was a Fellowcraft Club, not an initiation into the Fellowcraft. Cough, forgive us sheeple, but it looks like the Masons are trying to cover up the ritual belonging to the second degree, introducing the "Fellowcraft Club."

Highly unlikely as every Grand Lodge will state Freemasonry consists of three degrees EA, FC and MM etc etc.

Originally posted by freudlingThe AP article quoted statements made to Police and by Police. It did not, in anyway, make reference to a club within masonary called the Fellowcraft club.

Don't imagine it would, to my knowledge there are no clubs within clubs, within clubs.

Originally posted by freudling As for the ritual, from a sheeple's point of view, one explanation was that James failed the ritual and was given the real bullet to the head:

There has also been claims that the devil, who masons worship stil love that one, possed him to do his killing for him, that the lord god smited a person straying from his path, that he was being controlled by a microchip planted in his brain that malfunctioned (origination of the chip range from CIA, Aliens, MI5 all trying to infiltrate)

Originally posted by freudling
this being part and parcel of the ritual - premeditated.

That would mean only one person had failed to be passed to FC wouldn't it, either that or there is a pile of dead bodies somewhere that no family member has missed.

Originally posted by freudlingEid knew all along - it was a matter of Eid choosing which pocket.

An apparently getting confused in the excitment and I believe he even mentioned a little thing he called old age?

Originally posted by freudlingSome objections that can be raised in response to this murder being pre-meditated and part of Masonary.

Originally posted by freudlingWhy would Eid risk it? Well, at 76 years old, he is in the twilight of his life with not much to lose. He got no jail time (5 years probation), perhaps something he predicted before he murdered James.

But no guarantee, and why would he want to kill him? If he had any beef with the chap he would of had to make the lodge aware prior to the gentleman being initiated, to which if there differences couldn't be resolved they would not be able to sit in lodge together.

Originally posted by freudlingWhy would Eid risk the negative press to the Masons?

Have seen any negative press myself, just the reference as to where they were, and what they were doing, the rest of the information was actually about the events, the court case and the event, the factual side of the news rather than the conspiracy side, but what can I say, I prefer fact to speculation I know I am a mug to the truth and a fool for not having an overactive imagination.

Originally posted by freudlingThat is a good question, but as we can see, the Masons have somewhat successfully spun it in their favor so it is not that bad, although a smear nonetheless.

How exactly has it been in their favour?

Originally posted by freudlingMaybe his motive was to move up or something.

He's a Master mason, there is no moving up from there, have you read any other threads, or even an information site on Freemasonry

Originally posted by freudlingThese are not definitive conclusions, but rather, a possible explanation of what actually happened.

Possible explination wheres the questionability, where is the other side of things. From what I can see the sole purpose of the post was to link murdering with the acts of Freeasmonry. You could of named the obvious possibilty of the fact the bloke didn't like him so much that he used the opportunity to shoot him, is that not the first possibility to investigate the relationship between the two men? No of course not lets link the group they are both involved with cause people don't really know what goes on and will believe anything.

Originally posted by freudling Well, it is one of two main explanations: the other being it was a total accident.

Shouldn't this be in really small print right at the bottom of the thread

Originally posted by freudling
Couple more questions:

How old is the Fellowcraft club?
Anybody talk to witnesses personally?
How about the police?

Never heard of the Fellowcraft club, it is not listed in UGLE's recognised institutions.

The other two would be difficult they're a little far away.

Originally posted by freudlingHaving thought about it over the past few days, I am leaning towards it not being a mere accident:

Surprise Surprise

Originally posted by freudlingthere are way too many holes in this story.

And even more on any other possible explination. The only person who knows the truth is Eid, anything else that doesn't come from his mouth is full of holes.

Originally posted by freudling
we are investigating a crime, not whether this crime decides that Freemasonary is evil or not.

How about investigating the basics of the crime first, you are not actually investigating the events, just whether it is feasable that it is part of a ritual and whether it happens in Freemasonry. It is illegal to carry guns in many coutnries so it could not be part of a gloabl fraternity, as it would alienate some of the other countries including the first Grand Lodge established.

Originally posted by freudlingI just want the truth.

You want something you believe, doesn't mean it is the truth.

Originally posted by freudling
Even if somebody proved without a doubt Masonary to be evil, does that mean I will turn in my bed?

Masonry, Evil, thoguht we were not discussing this aspect, but the case in question.

Originally posted by freudling if you are hurting other living things doing rituals, then I care and I don't go for that in anyway.

Rest assured that no harm comes to an initiate or fellowcraft or Master mason during their rituals. other than maybe a little bit of cramp if they kneel or stand too long.

Originally posted by freudlingThis stuff is rare, so I am not shunning Masonary over it.

Which means it cannot be part of a ritual that is practised probably daily on a global scale, if not almost monthly.

Originally posted by freudling
If it weren't rare, then I am sure that not only myself, but many others would chastise Masonary on a much grander scale.

instead because it isn't common Freemasonry just has people like you who chastise it anyway.

Bondi:

Yet another mouth runner. OK, perhaps if you feel compelled to jump into this discussion, you must read the previous 5-6 pages in this thread, but I assume you have not. I have called the Washington Times and the AP in New York and discussed Mayo's comments. I have called looking for Mayo to discuss his comments. Today I am calling the investigator who was on the scene. I have read 8 or 9 separate articles on this incident. I noticed a major problem: half were written by Masons and those half all mentioned the "Fellowcraft Club." The AP article did not mention the Fellowcraft Club and included witness testimony and Police statements as well. The problems we have regarding sluffing this off as a mere accident are (1) Mayo's comments saying it was part of Freemasonary (2) Why did Eid have a loaded gun in the basement (3) Witness testimony saying the ritual goes back 70 years. Now, call me crazy but something in me doubts that, even if there were a club within that lodge, I doubt it is that old. How old is the lodge? Go get me some proof and, if not, this discussion is over.

Originally posted by freudling
Bondi:

Yet another mouth runner.

Why thank you, it is nice to be associate with other prelific writers who do not merely post opinion and biased conspiracy, even if it is to be insulted in the same manner.

Originally posted by freudlingOK, perhaps if you feel compelled to jump into this discussion, you must read the previous 5-6 pages in this thread, but I assume you have not. I have called the Washington Times and the AP in New York and discussed Mayo's comments. I have called looking for Mayo to discuss his comments. Today I am calling the investigator who was on the scene.

I have spoken with Tony Blair about it, who had tea with Bush who categorically stated, so he told me, it was merely an accident.

Originally posted by freudlingI have read 8 or 9 separate articles on this incident. I noticed a major problem: half were written by Masons and those half all mentioned the "Fellowcraft Club." The AP article did not mention the Fellowcraft Club and included witness testimony and Police statements as well.

Confused, this would mean at least 3/4's if not all were written by masons then. The first half you state by maosns, the second half by eye witnesses (who could only of been masons) and the police, who would of been on scene. There is, to my knowledge, no fellowcraft club.

Originally posted by freudling(1) Mayo's comments saying it was part of Freemasonary

I believe him ti of said on the night of a ritual, but not actually as part of the masonic ritual.

Originally posted by freudling
(2) Why did Eid have a loaded gun in the basement

He stated he has always carried it, many american's carry guns, would be no poin tcarrying them if they are not loaded.

Originally posted by freudling
(3) Witness testimony saying the ritual goes back 70 years.

As I said before, the firing ritual may do, but all masonic rituals for the 3 degrees go back longer than 70 years, so I don't think on your evidence they are the same thing.

Originally posted by freudling
Now, call me crazy but something in me doubts that, even if there were a club within that lodge, I doubt it is that old.

Which means you are discreditting your eye witness statements, as they say it was so. There are no clubs within lodges anyway, not in the manner in which you are implying, at most you may have a group of masons from one lodge that do research together.

Originally posted by freudlingHow old is the lodge? Go get me some proof and, if not, this discussion is over.

Give me the lodge name and number, and it's location from your evidence.

Although with you being such a thorough investigator I am sure you would know that all you have to do is contact the GL and ask when the lodge was consecrated for masonic use, or if it is purpose built, when the cornerstone was laid and you'd know.

Like I said the firing ritual is from the area not masonry. You need to get masonry out of your head and find out where the firing ritual comes from.

Originally posted by freudling


I am tired of your BS. Can anybody show me proof that Mayo didn't say what he said?

Oh really? I think I have more right to be tired of someone who rejects every logical answer given and then resorts to a conspiracy theory based on illogical hatred.

Can I show you the proof that Mayo didn't say what he was reported to say? Can you prove that I didn't call you an ignorant asshole when discussing this thread with a friend yesterday? Of course you can't. Any logical person knows that you can't prove a negative. Asking anyone to do so is just plain silly. All that can be provided is a denial and a reasoned explanation. And this has been given to you, yet you discard it because you see only what you want to see.
For the record, I didn't discuss your possible attributes with a friend, but you only have my word to this being true or you have to look at the logic surrounding the statement. Would I have bothered discussing you with my friend? Would I use those exact words? Could they be reasonably applied to you? The logical answer is no. You're asking for proof that cannot be given in a situation where logic should give you all the proof that you need.
And that's the situation we have here. You're discarding the denial and the logical evidence to suit your own blinkered agenda. It doesn't matter what is pointed out in rebuttal, you don't want convincing. You won't accept anything other than an agreement.

So just for you:

Last night I attended my Lodge and we had a lovely ceremony involving ninja throwing stars, hand grenades and knuckle dusters. To cap the evening off we had a great time when our Lodge room was lit up by the Napalm that one member had hidden under his apron. Casualties were light - apart from a few singed eyebrows, there were only four fatalites (although I don't think that our Senior Warden will be out of hospital for some time). I can't wait for next month as it's our Installation ceremony and a lot of our older members turn up with their 2nd World War weaponry. There's one guy who even comes to Lodge in a Spitfire and strafes the car-park whilst we wait to enter (oh how we laugh!!!).
Personally, I can't wait for our next initiation ceremony as I have just acquired a spiffing, brand new UZI. I can't wait to shoot our new candidate and then immediately call the police and be convicted of manslaughter.





Of course, none of that is true. The only thing that we have in my Lodge (or any other that I have visited) that could be construed as a weapon is a ceremonial sword. And that has been so dulled for safety reasons that it wouldn't cut anything - the only way it could be used as a weapon would be to bludgeon someone with it!!! But then I don't believe that you'll read this disclaimer anyway will you Freudling?

ROFLMAO Leveller...

Freudling, OK I'll play. It will take some time, as this isn't my whole life, but I will get all the reports and evidence I can get my hands on about this case (I will try calling as you say you have, and try to speak with the papers in question, etc. etc.) and get back with you on this thread. I feel I will be wasting my time, but I will give it a shot nonetheless.

If you want to speed this up you could hook me up with the contact info you have via u2u. You want to play investigator, that's cool I can play too, then you can retract your statement that we are all full of BS or "mouth runners".

It could take some time, as I'm sure the people will be difficult to reach, but if it will get you off this murder kick it will be worth it.

As ML said before, you are one of the few posters here that have opposing opinions who is worth arguing with, so let's work together then shall we? Perhaps we can get to the bottom of it, though I feel quite certain that when it all comes out in the wash, it will turn out to be just as www.masonicinfo.com... says it is.

Whaddya say?


[edit on 3/3/05 by The Axeman]

Alright Axeman, good post. I will send you a U2U message.

Leveller:

I wish you would stop ranting and get on with life. I have stated that I don't have an agenda against Freemasons and if you would look at the facts, perhaps you would see my point. I want to disgard this thing too and call it an accident, but because of the AP article, it is not that simple. Your posts further this problem not. Maybe you could funnel that energy into contacting Eid, or witnesses, but you probably won't and you will just continue blabbing. I know what to look for when I think you are near: the rambling, dogmatic guy who likes the sound, or looks, of his own voice.

[edit on 3-3-2005 by freudling]

Originally posted by freudling
Golfie:

Good post Golfie. I too believe that Mayo was mis-paraphrased, but I don't have proof of that. Axeman and Leveller: just deal with the the witnesses, Mayo and Eid carrying the loaded gun. Don't repeat yourselves, as I have already dealt with those articles and know what they say: they do absolutely nothing to show Mayo was mis-paraphrased, and do not shed light on why Mayo was carrying a loaded gun in his pocket during a ritual. This is, of course, not my opinion but the facts, be they true or not. Further, I think it is clear that I have stepped back and gone to great lengths to get the truth. Show me a statement from Mayo saying he did not say what he said in the AP article and then that will help.

Ok...I'm doing this because you show a sincere honesty that you want to believe that his was truly and accident as we've been trying to show.

a quick google search of "fellow craft club" turned up two interesting links...and hopefully they will help you to see that we are not trying to "spin" the events, just clarify what happend.

The first is from Patrick Healy a New York Times reporter. Yes I condemed them earlier in this thread for misrepresenting the information, but this article seems to be right on with what has been discussed, even to why he was carrying a weapon in the first place:

www.iht.com...


The second is from a Mason who lives in the area. Altho he is not a member of the lodge in question, he does try to shed some light on the existence of non-sanctioned "Social" clubs generated by members of a Lodge:

web.mit.edu...


I hope that these two links help in your understanding of the tragic events of that day.

You said in the above quote:

"This is, of course, not my opinion but the facts, be they true or not."

You must remember the facts are how the event actually occurred... facts by definition have to be true. It's how those facts are reported that can distort the truth.

from: web.mit.edu...

Who would want to join a fraternity that shoots its members? Unfortunately, that is the message given by the press. Remember, to an outsider, the term "Fellowcraft Club" is easily confused with the name of the 2nd degree of Masonry. ABC News, a very well respected news outfit, reported that the death occurred during the 2nd degree of the Lodge. While this is not correct, the public is going to believe it.

When trying to explain this horrible event to non-Masons, please keep this in mind, and please try to correct their facts. The truth can help us in this matter. Deception, most surely, will not.

Finally, please keep the James family in your hearts and prayers.

This says it all, I think.

I'm still with you though, freudling, I'm going to start making calls and firing emails tomorrow, as business is done for the day.

I can't say that I will meet with any sucess, but I will try, you have my word.

I'll get back to you. Oh and thanks for the info, that helps.

Good work Golfie.

[edit on 3/3/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by Leveller
So just for you:

Last night I attended my Lodge and we had a lovely ceremony involving ninja throwing stars, hand grenades and knuckle dusters. To cap the evening off we had a great time when our Lodge room was lit up by the Napalm that one member had hidden under his apron. Casualties were light - apart from a few singed eyebrows, there were only four fatalites (although I don't think that our Senior Warden will be out of hospital for some time). I can't wait for next month as it's our Installation ceremony and a lot of our older members turn up with their 2nd World War weaponry. There's one guy who even comes to Lodge in a Spitfire and strafes the car-park whilst we wait to enter (oh how we laugh!!!).
Personally, I can't wait for our next initiation ceremony as I have just acquired a spiffing, brand new UZI. I can't wait to shoot our new candidate and then immediately call the police and be convicted of manslaughter.

WOOHOO!!!I've found a new Lodge!!! Can we replace the VOSL with Ted Nugent's God, Guns and Rock and Roll?!?!

Of course, none of that is true. The only thing that we have in my Lodge (or any other that I have visited) that could be construed as a weapon is a ceremonial sword. And that has been so dulled for safety reasons that it wouldn't cut anything - the only way it could be used as a weapon would be to bludgeon someone with it!!! But then I don't believe that you'll read this disclaimer anyway will you Freudling?

Doh! and there you had my hopes up That's some funny stuff

Originally posted by freudling
The problems we have regarding sluffing this off as a mere accident are (1) Mayo's comments saying it was part of Freemasonary (2) Why did Eid have a loaded gun in the basement (3) Witness testimony saying the ritual goes back 70 years. Now, call me crazy but something in me doubts that, even if there were a club within that lodge, I doubt it is that old. How old is the lodge? Go get me some proof and, if not, this discussion is over.

Freudling, this only looks like a cover up to you conspiracy dorks who try to dig too far into ANYTHING to involve masonry into any possible misdeed. To any normal person it looks exactly like what it obviously is: an accident. Your arguments are unfounded and baseless, as there is no motive.

What's more, has it ever occurred to you that someone made a MISTAKE somewhere along the writing of this article? Witnesses said it was their fellowcraft club, but someone who thought he knew better said "ooh that's part of their second degree!" My point is that people ALWAYS make mistakes when writing about freemasonry, and this is probably no exception.

Or am I just part of the cover-up? Psshht.


[edit on 3-3-2005 by sebatwerk]

Sebatwerk:

Big guy for calling me a dork. My comments are unfounded? Suggestion: go back and read 6 pages of this thread and then get back to me. I was the one who pointed out the non-defining relative clause in a paraphrase from the AP article. I was the one who suspected the AP article to be wrong. I am the one who called the AP in NY, the Washington Times, Mayo, and am going to contact the Police who were on the scene. The only unfounded thing here is you saying that Eid had no motive.

Note: to anybody just joining, before you blab here and attack me, calling me a dork conspiracy theorist, jerk, or whatever else, read the last 6 pages of this thread so you know what is going on. Somebody could write a small book about this situation.

Originally posted by freudling
Big guy for calling me a dork. My comments are unfounded? Suggestion: go back and read 6 pages of this thread and then get back to me. I was the one who pointed out the non-defining relative clause in a paraphrase from the AP article. I was the one who suspected the AP article to be wrong. I am the one who called the AP in NY, the Washington Times, Mayo, and am going to contact the Police who were on the scene. The only unfounded thing here is you saying that Eid had no motive.

Note: to anybody just joining, before you blab here and attack me, calling me a dork conspiracy theorist, jerk, or whatever else, read the last 6 pages of this thread so you know what is going on. Somebody could write a small book about this situation.

I call everyone on this forum a 'conspiracy dork'. Check some other posts of mine. It doesn't make me feel any bigger than I already do, bro. Anyways, I apologize for jumping to conclusions, I only read your post up near the top of this page. You gotta understand that you came off as being pretty accusing in that post, and it doesn't matter what your position has been throughout the thread, you need to understand that most people don't bother to read entire threads.

And by the way, how could ANYONE assume that in masonry we SHOOT our initates if they 'fail' the ritual? You can't even FAIL a degree, they are not tests. That's just silly. In hundreds of years of masonry, this is the only time we hear of someone being shot in a lodge. Don't you think that if this WAS part of some ritual, they would have some way of disposing of the crime?

In any case, I should practice what I preach and do my research before posting. Even though I stand by my statements that there was no apparent motive for the killing. If there is, please share.



[edit on 4-3-2005 by sebatwerk]

William Morgan, did he fail a degree?

Then again, he probably disappeared himself to frame the Masons for the next 200 years. Damn imitation martyrs.

Originally posted by freudling
I have stated that I don't have an agenda against Freemasons and if you would look at the facts, perhaps you would see my point. I want to disgard this thing too and call it an accident, but because of the AP article, it is not that simple. I know what to look for when I think you are near: the rambling, dogmatic guy who likes the sound, or looks, of his own voice.

Me, dogmatic? You're having a laugh. I could level exactly the same accusation at you due to your constant grasping at conspiracy theory - a dogma in itself.
You have no agenda? Doesn't look like that to me. You're a liar if you claim that you want to call this an accident. You've already called it murder elsewhere in this thread and may I remind you that even under the eyes of the law this was not murder. So even though, the law itself has investigated this incident and decided it was an accident, you are the one looking to brand the people involved as murderers.
Climb down off your soapbox of feigned innocence.

And you're right. I won't be "contacting" any witnesses. Why should I fuel your perverted agenda?