I am 23, an American Citizen with government run health care.

Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry

 

well you made it blatantly obvious that you haven't read this thread at all, just the first and last pages apparently.

I too am a VET, you don't hold a specialty in defending this country.

I am also highly aware of economics, and if you visit the over 400 pages of the Market Data thread here, you would see that.

Bu go ahead, and put down others who call out the leeches where they exist, who knows maybe you are one of them too, despite your prior service.

I did notice, that you sure didn't get off your computer to start making phone calls to see where you could help your neighbor, rather than have the Nanny Government do it for you.

Guess those 9 hours I put in today to help Homes for Humanity actually do make me a better person than YOU think I am.

[edit on 8/16/09 by redhatty]

I read the thread and your ignorant response. That was all I needed. You want to down this kid because the health care industry fed him drugs and he got hooked? YOU CALLED IT A BAD DECISION AND CHOICES ON HIS BEHALF? Who's decision was it to put him on physically addicting drugs for extended periods? HMMMM....I wonder? WOULD IT BE "THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY?" Do me a favor, take one 5 milligram vicodin a day for about 3 months. I'd love to see what happens when you decide to step away.

Let me tell you something, If I had two minutes alone with you, you'd be begging for pain meds for the rest of your life. That's merely an analogy for cancer patients, endometriosis, lupus, AIDS, paraplegics, quadraplegics, GULF WAR SYNDROME, POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER, tendinitis, fibromyalgia, fibrosis, and a million other painful diseases that strike the heart of Americans. Are their ailments the result of bad choices? But don't worry, at some point, God has something in mind for you too. Lets hope the economy doesn't cave in because, if it does, its quite possible that private insurance agencies won't be able to cover the costs of whatever you may need.

[edit on 16-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

Originally posted by redhatty

Guess those 9 hours I put in today to help Homes for Humanity actually do make me a better person than YOU think I am.

[edit on 8/16/09 by redhatty]

Actually I don't think there is anything called "Homes for Humanity" I think you mean Habitat for Humanity, well at least when I was in the service that was what we worked with.

Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry

 

well you made it blatantly obvious that you haven't read this thread at all, just the first and last pages apparently.

I too am a VET, you don't hold a specialty in defending this country.

I am also highly aware of economics, and if you visit the over 400 pages of the Market Data thread here, you would see that.

Bu go ahead, and put down others who call out the leeches where they exist, who knows maybe you are one of them too, despite your prior service.

I did notice, that you sure didn't get off your computer to start making phone calls to see where you could help your neighbor, rather than have the Nanny Government do it for you.

Guess those 9 hours I put in today to help Homes for Humanity actually do make me a better person than YOU think I am.

[edit on 8/16/09 by redhatty]

Oh...and you're right. I didn't get off the computer to make calls to other agencies to make things better. I just finished burying a friend at 330pm that didn't have adequate HEALTH COVERAGE to get his MEDS to sustain his life and the treatment that he deserved. He wasn't a drain on society, he worked for one of the best Universities in the United States. Unfortunately, they don't provide health coverage to employees who make only 10 dollars an hour doing menial tasks. Yet, his check takes out money for social security (he'll never get to cash that in, will he?), medicare (made too much money to be on it), and a million other things that he gets taxed for that he neither used or supported.

AND JUST SO YOU KNOW...I'M NOT KIDDING, OR EXAGGERATING THIS STORY.

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Let me tell you something, If I had two minutes alone with you, you'd be begging for pain meds for the rest of your life. Well, let me tell you something. That's merely an analogy for cancer patients, endometriosis, lupus, AIDS, paraplegics, quadraplegics, GULF WAR SYNDROME, POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER, tendinitis, fibromyalgia, fibrosis, and a million other painful diseases that strike the heart of Americans. Are their ailments the result of bad choices? But don't worry, at some point, God has something in mind for you too. Lets hope the economy doesn't cave in because, if it does, its quite possible that private insurance agencies won't be able to cover the costs of whatever you may need.

Life can really suck can't it...

Here is the deal; there is not one person out there that doesn't want to see the best healthcare for EVERYONE. The problem is the cost, and we have many in our Government that say cost doesn't matter.

The big questions are why does it cost so much, and most importantly, does it really need to cost what it does?

I took my son to the emergency room a few years ago when he split his chin open, and after an hour wait I spent 30 minutes filling out insurance forms and another four hour wait to see the doctor. He came in looked at the cut, cleaned it and glued it in less than 10 mins.

My bill was $1000, and though it said “this is not a bill” if I didn’t have insurance it would have been the same BUT a bill. That same treatment in many other countries would have been 50 bucks. This is the problem we have with healthcare. People go to Mexico for quality dental work and cheap drugs, and so why are the same drugs cheap there but unaffordable in America without insurance?

People don’t need healthcare insurance they need healthcare costs they can afford. The government and insurance companies set the prices on everything, and so we need to remove them from the process and not give them 100s of billions more to spend in an already extremely overly inflated cost system.



[edit on 16-8-2009 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by Xtrozero


Yes Habitat is the parent group, out here in New Orleans though, we have a few little sub-groups. We are still rebuilding from Katrina in many areas.

Just another example of how well things run when the .gov gets involved

Evolved Ministry

Sorry for your loss.

You really need some anger management therapy!

#1 I would NEVER take Vicodin. I am a naturopath/homeopath

Just because a doctor prescribes something does not mean that is the best choice for you.

It's each and every person's PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to look into what they are being prescribed, and to take care of their health.

In this day and age, who can honestly say that they have NO IDEA that Big Pharma has absolutely no intent to provide medicines that actually CURE a person, only ones that treat the symptoms of disease?

If you can get on the internet, you can learn all you want to about the medicines the doctor gives you, alternative therapies and even natural cures.

EVERYONE knows that Oxycontin is addictive, just like Vicodin, Lortab, etc.

If you live in pain, and are prescribed these types of medications, just who is responsible if you continue to take the meds even after the pain is gone?

Is it the doctor's fault that you took more than was needed for longer than you should?

NO, It's the patient's fault if this happened.

When you take pain meds AND ARE IN PAIN, you don't get "high" off them.

When you take pain pills to get high off of them, you are abusing the meds.

Each and every one of us has a PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to care for ourselves. Taking good care of yourself does not include becoming a drug addict. That is NOT Taking care of yourself.

In the OP's first FEW posts, it was clearly revealed that while using a program designed to help the unfortunate, he took advantage of that program and allowed himself to become a drug addict, with drugs that every taxpayer paid for. Then sometime later, how many months or years we are not told, he finally woke up and used that same taxpayer funded program to get off the drugs.

Having worked in medicine, I can read between the lines to see that somewhere along the addiction road, the OP also found ways to "scam" the program so that he could keep his supply of drug available. I am quite positive that there was deliberate subterfuge used to convince the doctor (or multiple doctors) to prescribe more pills than is medically accepted as proper pain management treatment.

Someone who DELIBERATELY abuses a system that is in place to help them IS A LEECH.

If the truth offends you, go into politics, no one tell the truth there.

Those of you on the thread who think that it is an enlightened thing to ENABLE ADDICTS and people who DELIBERATELY ABUSE the systems designed to help them really need to sit back and think about what your are saying.

If you think it's noble to enable an addict, I am quite sure you can find one local to you & you can choose to support them.

But for all of you to sit here and say that my openly calling out someone for abusing the system is wrong scares me even more than the idea of the government running even more of our lives.

People with Morals and standards and values founded this country & they are still the people who make this country great.

If your moral compass finds that people who abuse the system are a good thing, then you belong with the banksters, Halliburtons, black ops programs and the politicians, because you don't see things any clearer than they do.

And THAT is why this country is falling apart, not because people don't care about one another, but because people think it OKAY to abuse everything designed to help them.

I am a 30 year old American citzen that without our current medical system I would have lost my leg I have been to college Ihave been layed off several times because my job has either been moved over seas or there was an immigrant who would be willing to my job cheaper and im still get foodstamps and medicaid for me and my family me and 4 other people were the ones who built the jtol tail fins that gave the WW2 style bombs GPS and I also worked for the 3rd largest coal burning power plant IN the world so maybe the problem isnt the health care system but the US employment system.

reply to post by redhatty

People with Morals and standards and values founded this country & they are still the people who make this country great.

what a tight little ship you must run

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Let me tell you something, If I had two minutes alone with you, you'd be begging for pain meds for the rest of your life. Well, let me tell you something. That's merely an analogy for cancer patients, endometriosis, lupus, AIDS, paraplegics, quadraplegics, GULF WAR SYNDROME, POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER, tendinitis, fibromyalgia, fibrosis, and a million other painful diseases that strike the heart of Americans. Are their ailments the result of bad choices? But don't worry, at some point, God has something in mind for you too. Lets hope the economy doesn't cave in because, if it does, its quite possible that private insurance agencies won't be able to cover the costs of whatever you may need.

Life can really suck can't it...

Here is the deal; there is not one person out there that doesn't want to see the best healthcare for EVERYONE. The problem is the cost, and we have many in our Government that say cost doesn't matter.

The big questions are why does it cost so much, and most importantly, does it really need to cost what it does?

I took my son to the emergency room a few years ago when he split his chin open, and after an hour wait I spent 30 minutes filling out insurance forms and another four hour wait to see the doctor. He came in looked at the cut, cleaned it and glued it in less than 10 mins.

My bill was $1000, and though it said “this is not a bill” if I didn’t have insurance it would have been the same BUT a bill. That same treatment in many other countries would have been 50 bucks. This is the problem we have with healthcare. People go to Mexico for quality dental work and cheap drugs, and so why are the same drugs cheap there but unaffordable in America without insurance?

People don’t need healthcare insurance they need healthcare costs they can afford. The government and insurance companies set the prices on everything, and so we need to remove them from the process and not give them 100s of billions more to spend in an already extremely overly inflated cost system.



[edit on 16-8-2009 by Xtrozero]

Very good analysis. Its about time that others are at least looking at the multiple issues that this program entails. I can say that I agree with every letter in your post.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


...and this ship is in full sail. I'm trying to think of a name for it.

I'm leaning towards "The Infallible", but haven't ruled out

"The Great Amazing Wonder who Never Made A Mistake in His Entire Life".

Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

Yes Habitat is the parent group, out here in New Orleans though, we have a few little sub-groups. We are still rebuilding from Katrina in many areas.

Just another example of how well things run when the .gov gets involved

Evolved Ministry

Sorry for your loss.

You really need some anger management therapy!

#1 I would NEVER take Vicodin. I am a naturopath/homeopath

Just because a doctor prescribes something does not mean that is the best choice for you.

It's each and every person's PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to look into what they are being prescribed, and to take care of their health.

In this day and age, who can honestly say that they have NO IDEA that Big Pharma has absolutely no intent to provide medicines that actually CURE a person, only ones that treat the symptoms of disease?

If you can get on the internet, you can learn all you want to about the medicines the doctor gives you, alternative therapies and even natural cures.

EVERYONE knows that Oxycontin is addictive, just like Vicodin, Lortab, etc.

If you live in pain, and are prescribed these types of medications, just who is responsible if you continue to take the meds even after the pain is gone?

Is it the doctor's fault that you took more than was needed for longer than you should?

NO, It's the patient's fault if this happened.

When you take pain meds AND ARE IN PAIN, you don't get "high" off them.

When you take pain pills to get high off of them, you are abusing the meds.

Each and every one of us has a PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to care for ourselves. Taking good care of yourself does not include becoming a drug addict. That is NOT Taking care of yourself.

In the OP's first FEW posts, it was clearly revealed that while using a program designed to help the unfortunate, he took advantage of that program and allowed himself to become a drug addict, with drugs that every taxpayer paid for. Then sometime later, how many months or years we are not told, he finally woke up and used that same taxpayer funded program to get off the drugs.

Having worked in medicine, I can read between the lines to see that somewhere along the addiction road, the OP also found ways to "scam" the program so that he could keep his supply of drug available. I am quite positive that there was deliberate subterfuge used to convince the doctor (or multiple doctors) to prescribe more pills than is medically accepted as proper pain management treatment.

Someone who DELIBERATELY abuses a system that is in place to help them IS A LEECH.

If the truth offends you, go into politics, no one tell the truth there.

Those of you on the thread who think that it is an enlightened thing to ENABLE ADDICTS and people who DELIBERATELY ABUSE the systems designed to help them really need to sit back and think about what your are saying.

If you think it's noble to enable an addict, I am quite sure you can find one local to you & you can choose to support them.

But for all of you to sit here and say that my openly calling out someone for abusing the system is wrong scares me even more than the idea of the government running even more of our lives.

People with Morals and standards and values founded this country & they are still the people who make this country great.

If your moral compass finds that people who abuse the system are a good thing, then you belong with the banksters, Halliburtons, black ops programs and the politicians, because you don't see things any clearer than they do.

And THAT is why this country is falling apart, not because people don't care about one another, but because people think it OKAY to abuse everything designed to help them.

You can suggest anger management all you like. However, it was you who took the initiative to aggressively attack the OP. He made his statement, and you followed up with a very CHARGED attack for no other reason than to disagree. So, I simply extended the same courtesy to you that you did to him. If that qualifies me for anger management, then we can both go to the same therapist together.

Now, on the same token...you choose not to do Vicodin. Fantastic for you. However, the OP was prescribed these drugs for his injury. Who's at fault? Them for doing it, or him for following orders? No matter how much of that garbage that you take or don't take, if its prescribed for extended periods, the risks for addiction grown exponentially. It does not take a genius to figure that out.

Also, you want to talk about people with morals and standards who founded this country. Hmmmm...sure, if you include rapists, slaveholders, slave owners, and creators of genocide a part of that morality, then great...I agree.
As it were, nothing has changed there and if the system benefits you, then it must be a great system. However, its not the same across the boards. Being a veteran, you should be perfectly aware of what I am saying.

And no matter what...there will always be someone there to capitalize and benefit from the system. That's the reason why we call it capitalism. We designed it, and we're living it. Can you blame people for utilizing it for their own ends??? I guess we're finding out that capitalism wasn't working as well as we thought it was...RIGHT???

But, for the many who choose to openly exploit it, there are many more who choose to help support it. And those are the people that we should be looking out for. If you nationalize the health care industry, there will be many who will benefit who deserve that treatment. If you take it away, you damn those same people for the actions of a few.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting

...and this ship is in full sail. I'm trying to think of a name for it. I'm leaning towards "The Infallible", but haven't ruled out "The Great Amazing Wonder who Never Made A Mistake in His Entire Life".

that really is it - isn't it? :-)

these proud people with their independently owned bootstraps - pulling them up in public every chance they get

they're one slipped disc away from being hooked themselves -

and one job away from losing their insurance

I always wonder if their walk is as bold as their talk

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Now, on the same token...you choose not to do Vicodin. Fantastic for you. However, the OP was prescribed these drugs for his injury. Who's at fault? Them for doing it, or him for following orders? No matter how much of that garbage that you take or don't take, if its prescribed for extended periods, the risks for addiction grown exponentially. It does not take a genius to figure that out.

And do you think that no one has PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY when taking medications? Each person is responsible for their own actions. If the drug is prescribed for extended periods, the patient hold even more responsibility to ensure they are maintaining the balance between pain relief and health. It's not up to the doctor to figure out if the patient is always being honest with them, it's up to the patient to be honest with themselves AND the doctor.

And no matter what...there will always be someone there to capitalize and benefit from the system. That's the reason why we call it capitalism. We designed it, and we're living it. Can you blame people for utilizing it for their own ends??? I guess we're finding out that capitalism wasn't working as well as we thought it was...RIGHT???

Capitalism typically refers to an economic and social system in which the means of production (also known as capital) are privately controlled; labor, goods and capital are traded in a market; profits are distributed to owners or invested in new technologies and industries; and wages are paid to labor.

Capitalism works great, when it is left to run on it's own, without government interference.

Utilizing capitalism to your own ends means you are becoming productive and successful, not underhandedly cheating and manipulating just for personal gain.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Bravo! Excellent! There really is a great deal of patting oneself on the back on this thread. And people are very, very angry over the idea of this possible reform. What is the saying? Fear? Fear makes people mean.

Originally posted by redhatty

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
Now, on the same token...you choose not to do Vicodin. Fantastic for you. However, the OP was prescribed these drugs for his injury. Who's at fault? Them for doing it, or him for following orders? No matter how much of that garbage that you take or don't take, if its prescribed for extended periods, the risks for addiction grown exponentially. It does not take a genius to figure that out.

And do you think that no one has PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY when taking medications? Each person is responsible for their own actions. If the drug is prescribed for extended periods, the patient hold even more responsibility to ensure they are maintaining the balance between pain relief and health. It's not up to the doctor to figure out if the patient is always being honest with them, it's up to the patient to be honest with themselves AND the doctor.

And no matter what...there will always be someone there to capitalize and benefit from the system. That's the reason why we call it capitalism. We designed it, and we're living it. Can you blame people for utilizing it for their own ends??? I guess we're finding out that capitalism wasn't working as well as we thought it was...RIGHT???

Capitalism typically refers to an economic and social system in which the means of production (also known as capital) are privately controlled; labor, goods and capital are traded in a market; profits are distributed to owners or invested in new technologies and industries; and wages are paid to labor.

Capitalism works great, when it is left to run on it's own, without government interference.

Utilizing capitalism to your own ends means you are becoming productive and successful, not underhandedly cheating and manipulating just for personal gain.

You say Capitalism works great when left to run on its own without government interference. I've got one word for that..."Corporations." Here is another word that comes to mind "Lobbyism." You can fill in the blanks from there.

And, I know what Capitalism is...
However, I think you're forgetting that there are many ways that one can capitalize within a capitalistic system. And you don't think that the people at the top of the food chain don't underhandedly cheat and manipulate this for personal gain? I think you're living in wonderland.
The truest definition of capitalism is gain at someone else's expense or weakness. Otherwise, we would have a different name for it. Here's another word that we could use in place of capitalism...RAPE.

R.A.P.E. Reaping Astronomical Percentages Exclusively

[edit on 16-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

[edit on 16-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Really? Looked in the mirror much?

I have made LOTS of mistakes & I've had unfortunate things happen, like being completely wiped out in Hurricane Katrina - literally lost everything.

I simply choose to learn from my mistakes and not use the bad things that happen in life as a crutch to lean on & expect pity for.

Planning ahead & having savings for emergencies, you know, back to that personal responsibility thing - is a bad thing?

Would I be more acceptable to you if I was a pathetic looser crying about how bad life has done me & how none of it was my fault, it was always someone else's fault?

PLEASE, give me a break.

You want to enable drug users and people who deliberately abuse a system that is designed to help them, do it on your own time.

Don't cry and complain even more when the costs for things increase because of the abuse to they system

Kinda like what everyone is doing now, with healthcare

reply to post by redhatty

Planning ahead & having savings for emergencies, you know, back to that personal responsibility thing - is a bad thing?

of course not - why ask ridiculous questions?

what is the point of your ridiculous question - by the way?

is there ever an acceptable level of need - in your world?

or are unprepared people always deserving of their misfortune?

is it possible for any one person to be prepared for everything that might come their way?

of course not

so - what this is about is your individual set of prejudices - you have a personal list of bad people - and by labeling them as such, you need never be bothered by their circumstances

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
The truest definition of capitalism is gain at someone else's expense or weakness. Otherwise, we would have a different name for it. Here's another word that we could use in place of capitalism...RAPE.

[edit on 16-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

While I agree that gov interference has in most cases removed what real capitalism is from this country, I completely disagree with your definition of capitalism above.

Capitalism is better defined as building a better mousetrap

Make or do something people need better than the competition & you will become a success.

Working for the guy who designed the better mousetrap is not a bad thing either.

Strangely though, your definition is very fitting in regards to nationalizing healthcare.

You would rape the minds of the people who develop new medical technologies, rape the minds and efforts of healthcare providers, rape the pockets of the middle class to provide for others.

When the pay for a person who went to and paid for medical school for 8-10 yrs, is capped, how many doctors do you think you will have to choose from?

When costs for treatment are capped, how many hospitals do you think will get state of the art equipment?

When Health care providers stop buying the state of the art equipment, who will be motivated to use their mind & skill to create new & even more state of the art equipment, knowing there's no market to sell it to?

Be very careful what you wish for, you just may get it. Then it's too late to cry out in the streets "BUT I DIDN'T KNOW!!!"

But, hey, capitalism is so evil, maybe we will go back to bloodletting as standard medical care before this is all over.

reply to post by EvolvedMinistry


Or "Social Darwinism".

[edit on 16-8-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by Nero_1337
I am a 30 year old American citzen that without our current medical system I would have lost my leg I have been to college Ihave been layed off several times because my job has either been moved over seas or there was an immigrant who would be willing to my job cheaper and im still get foodstamps and medicaid for me and my family me and 4 other people were the ones who built the jtol tail fins that gave the WW2 style bombs GPS and I also worked for the 3rd largest coal burning power plant IN the world so maybe the problem isnt the health care system but the US employment system.

I think a part that is wrong with employment in America is many people are unwilling to move or gain new skills into an area that is growing and not shrinking. I know moving might be especially hard but when a large employer disappears in an area, due to economics or just plain technological progression, what other choice is there if you want to continue to work?

I learned two major technical skills in the Air Force and what I’m doing now is only remotely related to either. People also asked me when I retired where was I going to live, and my reply was “where a job takes me” and for many this was a strange answer.

Originally posted by redhatty

Originally posted by EvolvedMinistry
The truest definition of capitalism is gain at someone else's expense or weakness. Otherwise, we would have a different name for it. Here's another word that we could use in place of capitalism...RAPE.

[edit on 16-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]

While I agree that gov interference has in most cases removed what real capitalism is from this country, I completely disagree with your definition of capitalism above.

Capitalism is better defined as building a better mousetrap

Make or do something people need better than the competition & you will become a success.

Working for the guy who designed the better mousetrap is not a bad thing either.

Strangely though, your definition is very fitting in regards to nationalizing healthcare.

You would rape the minds of the people who develop new medical technologies, rape the minds and efforts of healthcare providers, rape the pockets of the middle class to provide for others.

When the pay for a person who went to and paid for medical school for 8-10 yrs, is capped, how many doctors do you think you will have to choose from?

When costs for treatment are capped, how many hospitals do you think will get state of the art equipment?

When Health care providers stop buying the state of the art equipment, who will be motivated to use their mind & skill to create new & even more state of the art equipment, knowing there's no market to sell it to?

Be very careful what you wish for, you just may get it. Then it's too late to cry out in the streets "BUT I DIDN'T KNOW!!!"

But, hey, capitalism is so evil, maybe we will go back to bloodletting as standard medical care before this is all over.

State of the art equipment is limited for those who can AFFORD IT. Plain and simple. Those who have insurance receive the best healthcare in America, those who do not are superficially treated for their symptoms.

You ever wonder why Cuba's healthcare system seems to be superior to the American system??? Or why America's best doctors studied in Cuba and overseas? You might want to do research on this one, because I know that you'll try to contradict me before knowing the facts. They actually cure more people of their ailments with substandard equipment than we do with the newest gadgets. Interesting...isn't it? Their doctors are far more knowledgeable about the inner-workings of the human body than ours because we rely on equipment that often times turns out to be USELESS. You ever wonder why millions of people go to Canada or Cuba for superior treatment? Its because they receive the best healthcare and Medication regardless of their financial standings in the community.

The only people who will suffer from this reform are those who have millions, or billions invested in the surging costs of inflated healthcare. And ironically, those are the very people who are raising the worst voice in this issue. Coincidence??? Nah. Simple mathematics.

And just so you know...I don't support the democrats or the republicans. They're all a bunch of self serving fools who manipulate us for profit. End of story. But, that doesn't mean that this reform policy isn't needed for the long run.

[edit on 16-8-2009 by EvolvedMinistry]