Why does Something Have to Be Done ?

There's one thing that's really been bothering me ever since this who health care debate began. I keep hearing the same phrase "Something Has to be Done!" and I don't really understand why. What I hear is that millions of Americans are uninsured.

I guess it could be the poor or the uneducated. But, usually if a person is seriously poor or uneducated that, to me, usually means that they just don't care and don't want to work. We live in America. Everyone gets the same chance. I feel pity for you if you are poor, but that's all.

Perhaps it's the elderly? Well, if they're children have any heart whatsoever then they would obviously step in and come to the aid of that parent. Isn't that the way it's usually worked? Isn't that the life cycle?

Well, who's really uninsured? I'm going to laugh if you tell me that's is people ages 18-35 or something ridiculous like that. People in that age group probably need health insurance the least in this country.

Don't tell me the uneducated deserve health-insurance. Why? They didn't do anything to deserve it. Don't tell me the poor deserve health insurance, they don't have jobs, they sure don't deserve it. Don't tell me people 18-35 need insurance. They're so damn healthy it's not even funny.

Then who? It has to be those select few people you hear about that the current health system has treated like animals. Those very few and very exceptional cases that are paraded in front of pseudo intellectual peoples who feel that it is their place in life to be compassionate saints and also FORCE everyone else around them to be compassionate to the undeserving.

I apologize if I've offended anyone so far, but you have to remember one thing. America wasn't founded upon charity, it was founded upon opportunity. Every single last person born in these states deserves our god given rights as humans which are clearly spelled out for us in the constitution and ONE golden opportunity which can never be exhausted. Every person who strives and works diligently to attain what they seek will reach their goals and all others will fall by the way side due to their own weaknesses and lack of capability.

If you do not desire independence and freedom they you do not deserve it.

As a matter of fact, instead of making government run health care larger and more powerful it should be stripped entirely from government control (in regards to medicare.)

So why does something have to be done?

Please enlighten me.

Okay, well I think something needs to be done, but it doesn't have anything to do with the government running anything.

Tort reform needs to happen, also we need to get rid of HMO's and PPO's and all those other horrible things that the government legislated into taking prominence.

What needs to be done are simple solutions, and most of the solutions have nothing to do with the health industry at all.

I'm living proof that your assertion is inherently false. I'm neither poor, nor uneducated, yet I need help with health insurance and there are many many like me. Let me back up and try to explain:

I contend that I am not uneducated because have a doctorate degree. However, you should know that this means I also have massive student loans.

I contend that I am not poor, because I fit into the middle class tax bracket. However, I am self employed and also employ two other people in my business. Therefore have to bargain with the health insurance providers on a one to one basis and after paying for my employees' insurance, my overhead, my student loans, my mortgage, car payment and credit card bills I can scarcely afford my own insurance.

Thus, as you can see, I am not lazy, poor, uneducated or any of the derogatory assertions you make about people without health care. I'm not out there screaming that something must be done, rather I joined the Navy and served the country and now I have access to VA care, but wouldn't it be nice if I could have access the same health insurance that the larger employers have access to at the same price. Such a plan wouldn't affect you what so ever. And yet, that is what is being proposed currently.

As for Tort Reform I suggest you look at the States that have already passed Tort Reform and tell me one State where such reform has lowered the average insurance premium by one single dollar. I'll bet you can't. Do you know how I know this? Because I have looked. Tort Reform is a misnomer and it is an Insurance company lie. It is really just corporate immunity.

reply to post by Shamrock87


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pirsuit of Happiness."

Why does everyone deserve health care?

That would be the "Life" part of "Life, Liberty and the pirsuit of Happiness".

I would think that any civilized human would find this self-evident.

hmm...

Vas

reply to post by Artephius Abraxas Helios

Tort Reform is a misnomer and it is an Insurance company lie. It is really just corporate immunity

Not so much. If you look at the states that have instituted tort reform, which is the limiting of what a person can sue a doctor for it has caused insurance premiums to stagnate, and rise at a slower and lower rate.

It is just one solution to the problem. You should look at the HMO act of 1973 and 1976. Up until the first HMO act there was only one HMO, Kaiser Permanente. They lobbied Nixon to pass the HMO act. Then they turned around and threatened the doctors, to join the HMO's or else they were going to take all their patients.

Up until that time health care costs per GDP were right in line with the rest of the world. The point I'm trying to make is that this government are the source of the problems. This bill will create even more problems. Not to mention we are going to get taxed on our health care plans, private, self-insured, or government insurance, all of them will be taxed.

Taxes will have to be raised in order to pay for the 10's of thousands of extra government workers to staff the bureaucracy. This bill that they are trying to push(I've read it) will not do anything that they are proposing that it will do.

Instead you will be subject to the whim of the government on which plans you can purchase because each plan offered will have to be approved by the HHS Secretary, then the multiple panels that will determine which treatments are available.

I'll state this again this Health Care reform bill will not do anything that they are saying it will do.

I'm all for making health care affordable.

Knock out insurance and have people pay the doctor directly for what they need done.

But the key here is that it be affordable.

reply to post by Violet Sky


That would make it affordable, because the doctors would be able to undercut each other.

They would co-op and between 5 doctors they could afford the million dollar machines and things would still be affordable.

The first thing we have to do though is have a stable currency that only fluctuates a little bit but allows us to maintain a consistent cost of living. Not this fiat crap that allows the cost of living to outgrow the rate of wages.

I tried to avoid this health insurance thing for as long as possible, trying to keep my opinion out of every topic posted for I had no opinion; though until recently, this whole thing didn't affect me because I am as healthy as a horse. With the H1N1 virus going around and flu season coming around the corner, as well as my time to actually care for politics, I have formulated an opinion on this issue.

How wonderful, you might say, but don't get too excited.

I usually am all for helping others in anyway possible because it is the moral thing to do, but I have been thinking of the other side of this debate. Is this system really fit for everyone? And the answer is definitely no.

I believe we should develop a system that rewards workers of America, with cheaper health insurance. That will encourage people to get an education outside of high school and possibly even a job that will last longer than the weekend at the park (some people call it house chores. Homeless people cheer me up with their positive outlook on life).

The people who don't work, should not get insurance because you are bringing this country down. Now, I know how that sounds, and I agree with people that disagree with my suggestion on this issue. However! If it came down to you having health insurance and you worked for and a poor person who is as lazy as can be, would you give it up for them?

If you do, you are a saint. If you don't, you are human. No harm, no foul. Right?

As for the rich, I don't care. I will leave that for you guys to decide. I haven't really reached that point in my 'caring to form an opinion' gauge.

may I suggest a quite easy answer .

show me in the constitution where healthcare , drugs , hospitals are in any way discused as a function of the fedaral goverment.

there are the 9th and 10th amendment which tell the fedaral goverment to butt out ....

but then , that would be a problem... that means abortion is a states right , DEA is illegal , food and drug is out the door.

and frankly , it opens the flood gates of 90% of the fedaral goverments budget getting axed.

I understand that people need these services , but ...

it is kind of a problem with me... that they don't have the legal right to do this... with out creative thinking that I really don't beleive they even understand... ( much less beleive )

This is just my 2 cents.

There are things that need addressed in the area of health care in the US. I agree with that and there are plenty of other threads for the arguments about what needs to be done - so I'll leave that out of here.

The question is - why does it need to be done NOW. I used all caps to indicate NOW as in as soon as it can be shoved through.

Health care didn't develop problems overnight. The mess is massively complicated. Trying to "fix" everything in one fell swoop in a very short time line is just asking for things to get even more messed up.

Yes, it needs addressing. But, for goodness sake, why not take the time and do it right?

Remember this is the goverment we are talking about. The same folks that that bring us such gems as the IRS, FEMA, the Postal Service, etc, etc. I'll be honest, I don't really trust them not to botch it all up if they took 3 years on the bill. I certainly don't trust them not to botch it up if they rush it through.

For better or worse, after WWII much of our health insurance became tied to our employers rather than to us as individuals or families. People who work part time or even two part time jobs do not get employer insurance.

That means when someone loses a job, they also lose their health insurance and buying into the extended COBRA plan is expensive and newly unemployed cannot afford it.

The other big issues are the lifetime limits insurers put on people. A million dollars in medical dollars doesn't go very far these days. Then there is the practice of denying insurance to anyone with some pre-existing condition or exluding coverage for it and charging more for an otherwise comprehensive policy.

Insurance companies have also been known to cancel someone's insurance after an expensive illness or surgeries. Some will only pay for older less expensive treatments even if a more effective one is available.
That is fine ikf the older treatment is effective but deadly if it is not.

So there are really two or three separate issues here, that of regulating insurance policies and practices and that of providing insurance to those citizens who have none for what ever reason.

So yes, there is a problem.

So far, none of the five bills up for consideration simply and clearly addresses those problems.

Originally posted by Shamrock87
We live in America. Everyone gets the same chance.

I'm sorry, but if you truly believe that you must be extremely naive.

If you come from a wealthy family, and can afford the right education, you can get anywhere. If not, your options are limited. This is the case all over the world where education is governed by the state.

This health reform thing is just a symptom of the wider problem; government has grown beyond its bounds.
The pervasive increasing control of everything from health, to education, to farming, to water, to power, to taxation...
It's all interconnected.

If it wasn't the Health Reform issue, it would be the next set of stealth taxes you and your children (and their children, and theirs) will have to pay to cover the cost of the "great banker robbery".

At the crux of this is the corporate takeover of your government. Your government is there to act on behalf of the corporations. If the last decade hasn't taught the people that I honestly don't know what will!

You have a corporate cabal of bankers and business leaders running your government, donating to their puppet in the expectation of massive returns on their investment. And the investments are now paying off, big time!

Celente has it right, the next revolution has begun, the government has no choice now but to raise taxes and pump the public for every dime they can, can anyone really see that going on without an argument?

You need a third party, but first you need to eradicate the corporate control of America.

I'm really not quite sure how to respond.

I wouldn't equate financial success with level of education.

In this economy especially, I wouldn't equate lack of employment with lack of education...or lack of previous financial success (middle management anyone? media?)

And I certainly wouldn't equate the problems with the current system with simply those who are uninsured for whatever reason.....

We all know it goes far deeper than that.

-Cheers

Education and wealth do not always go hand in hand. Neither does education and being smart enough or astute enough to make a living or manage the money you do have.

Have known some mighty dumb, very educated folks who haven't got the sense they were born with. Have also known some not so well or expensively educated folks who have done quite well for themselves in their finances and in life.

What has been so good about the USA is that it is possible to be successful even if you grew up with nothing and it is also possible for rich men's sons and daughters to lose it all with their incompetence.

We do need to have some way that working people who have no insurance can afford to have it at a group rate instead of the exhorbitant individual rates the charge and to have a plan for those whose medical conditions have thrown them out of whatever plan they did have.

People on welfare or disability get a medical card and free care. It is those who are the working poor and those in the middle classes that have a really tough time of it and can lose their insurance at the drop of the hat.

And unlike too many members of our Congress and our Senate and our President, I don't think it is necessary to bankrupt our country to do it.

reply to post by Shamrock87


Why does Something Have to Be Done ?


This is why:

Un-funded Medicare contingent liabilities (part A $34.4 T, part B $34 T, Part D $17.2 T)* $85.6 trillion


Yeah, that's trillion with a T

US annual GDP is roughly 13.5 trillion.

The government knows this charade is coming to an end and so does big pharma, so they want a total takeover of the medical care system by government where government can simply ration the care to reduce costs instead of creating market competition.

Big pharma doesn't like competition.

Anyone with even the most basic understanding of economics knows that when government sets prices below market costs, the result is an increase in demand and a shortage of supply. Of course, this leads to rationing.

Government IS big pharma.

There is no difference between them.

Its called fascism.






[edit on 17-8-2009 by mnemeth1]

Indeed. The medicare shortfall in payments to all providers of health services is one of the major reasons why costs are so high for everyone else.

That and the zero payments from 20 million illegals means everyone else has to make up the difference.

Add that to the complicated insurance forms and the cost of malpractice insurance and most of our health care dollars do not even go to the health care we get.

These are the things most in need of reform and regulation.

Originally posted by Vasilis Azoth
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pirsuit of Happiness."

Why does everyone deserve health care?

That would be the "Life" part of "Life, Liberty and the pirsuit of Happiness".

I would think that any civilized human would find this self-evident.

Any rational human would quickly find faults in your incorrect interpretation of the US Constitution.

The fact that you are posting here means that you were not put to death at birth simply because the government decided to do so. So you were granted the "right to life" that all human beings are so endowed by whoever is their creator.

The governments obligation in regards to that right is pretty much over after that point. The right serves only to make federal capital punishment pretty much unconstitutional.

Let me ask you this: If you have the right to tax-payer provided health care because you have the right to life, then do you also have the right to tax-payer provided food, and tax-payer provided shelter?

Jon