Obamacare - Un-American ?

reply to post by visible_villain


Yes, this plan is highly unconstitutional. And yes the claim made about "rationing care" could be true.

It isn't worded that way in the bill, but a there will be a panel appointed by the Health and Humans Services Secretary that will decide which procedures should be one and which ones shouldn't.

It was a really long bill, but also there was a section about certain treatments that haven't be approved for use can be decided by the HHS Secretary and the decision made will not be subject to judicial review, in other words no legal recourse to challenge the decision or get compensation.

So yes, this bill eliminates choices of treatments, it also limits what kind of health insurance you can have, because they will set up a Health Insurance Exchange and the HHS Secretary will determine if the Health Insurance agency can participate on the exchange.

That is what they are calling "choice". So yes the only thing Un-American is this Health Care reform "bill" the only one we have access too, HR 3200.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

Personally, I am offended by Pelosi's conviction that the American people are stupid enough to be drawn into a political-correctness pi**ing match of who's more/less un-American than whom ... hence the title of this thread ...

Why I claim it's scary is this typical quote from the article originally cited in the OP -

Savings, he writes, will require changing how doctors think about their patients: Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously, "as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others" (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008).

I mean they're coming right out and saying it : It's not at all about human life anymore, it's only about the money.

I'm a pretty old geezer and I have to admit that in my experience this is an absolute new low for America, and by extension all Americans ...

reply to post by visible_villain


That it is, all about the money. I must have misinterpreted the point of this thread.

I agree though, this isn't about who's more PC. This is about American freedom of speech, and it is apparent they are losing their cool and they are just going to enrage people even more saying things like this.

There was a thread on here about the "culture of death" and how certain people are trying to get Americans to accept death when they reach a certain age. It was really crazy.

Fortunately that won't ever happen unless they shove it down our throats. That is partly why I don't want this bill to pass because this will enable them to shove it down our throats.

Am I still missing the point of the thread?

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

You asked :
I must have misinterpreted the point of this thread.

Don't feel too badly about that, it's my thread and I'm pretty sure I am missing the point too ...

There are so many points ( 'issues' ) involved here - know what I mean ?

And, myself, being certainly more than a little dislexic, with way more than a fair share of asperger's, I guess I didn't put the OP together very well.

Maybe the point is that this bill, just like all the others, probably since Johnson, is only the latest insult to the American citizen, a bill which is designed to redefine the medical practioner's ethical obligation from that of serving the patient to one of serving the government ...

No suprises there, I guess ...

reply to post by visible_villain


Okay, I see now. Don't worry about it, should make for interesting conversations, in a good way. There is no telling the conclusion that are possible.

I completely understand what you are saying though, it is the accumulation of all things that have happened for a long time. It is almost like these bills are intentionally designed to cause more problems than what they are supposed to address so they can later go back and "fix" them in the future.

And they are an insult to us because they think we are not able to care for ourselves when we are perfectly capable of doing so. Crazy times we are living in.

I understand how you feel though it is like the walls are closing in on us and nobody really know what to do about it.

Edit to add -

I also think you started a good thread, it's a shame more people haven't jumped in.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by Hastobemoretolife]

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

You said :
It is almost like these bills are intentionally designed to cause more problems than what they are supposed to address so they can later go back and "fix" them in the future.

You know, I never thought of that ... You gotta be right about that - it's definately 'how they roll' ...

Perhaps you should all stop and ask countries which already have universal health care if it is good or bad - and that would be EVERY SINGLE WESTERN DEVELOPED NATION - ALL OF THEM - the only one which doesn't is the US and that is why you are considered impoverished and backwards by everyone except yourselves - the power of denial -

So what do we think of it - we would all fire our government in a second if they tried to take it away - only the most profoundly ignorant nation would fight NOT to have it - sheer, blind stupidity of the highest order.

Coming from a country that has the highest living standard on earth - and oh yes - universal health care.

reply to post by audas

Perhaps you should all stop and ask countries which already have universal health care if it is good or bad - and that would be EVERY SINGLE WESTERN DEVELOPED NATION - ALL OF THEM - the only one which doesn't is the US and that is why you are considered impoverished and backwards by everyone except yourselves - the power of denial -

So American's consumer 25% of the worlds resources, has(currently) the worlds strongest military, in a country were even poor people have big screen TV's, and we are considered impoverished? And we are also considered "backwards" because we are resisting conforming to what Europe is like?

The whole argument that "all developed nations have universal health care" sounds like a little kid asking him mommy and daddy to do something because their friends parents let them do it.

This is America and not Europe. The founding fathers founded this country to get away from there. If our health care is "bad" then why do people travel thousands of miles to come get treated by the best specialist in the world?

The only thing wrong with our health care system is the cost, that is a fact. Every system has its downfalls our most major one is cost.

I'm sick of this argument about every developed nation, that is why America exist was to get away from all those nations and cut our own path.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by audas

 

Perhaps you should all stop and ask countries which already have universal health care if it is good or bad - and that would be EVERY SINGLE WESTERN DEVELOPED NATION - ALL OF THEM - the only one which doesn't is the US and that is why you are considered impoverished and backwards by everyone except yourselves - the power of denial -

So American's consumer 25% of the worlds resources, has(currently) the worlds strongest military, in a country were even poor people have big screen TV's, and we are considered impoverished? And we are also considered "backwards" because we are resisting conforming to what Europe is like?

The whole argument that "all developed nations have universal health care" sounds like a little kid asking him mommy and daddy to do something because their friends parents let them do it.

This is America and not Europe. The founding fathers founded this country to get away from there. If our health care is "bad" then why do people travel thousands of miles to come get treated by the best specialist in the world?

The only thing wrong with our health care system is the cost, that is a fact. Every system has its downfalls our most major one is cost.

I'm sick of this argument about every developed nation, that is why America exist was to get away from all those nations and cut our own path.

Like I said the power of denial.

Not sure what you are getting at with poor people have plasmas - since they are ALL made in countries like South Korea where the general population is decades ahead in technology - Japan has gigabyte download speeds - ? EU is behind ASIA as an economic powerhouse, while the US is behind the EU - so for all your parochialism and flag-waving you need to take a reality check -

The US was founded by the British on the whole, not Americans, Americans did not get away from Britain - got that - further you were under British rule and are almost entirely based upon British institutions to this day - further NONE of this has any bearing on universal health care.

And yes America is relatively impoverished compared to most of the advanced European countries - you wouldn't know because you choose to remain ignorant. I don't even understand why you argue the point when there is no possible way for you to know - you have clearly never lived there.

Further there are an abundance on non-European countries which offer universal health care - ok. Your arguments are simply driven from ignorance and fear rather than any acknowledgement of the facts or udnerstanding of the issues - try and open your mind and find out about the reality of the project rather than simply shutting and chanting I am American - we are great - because you are not. You are just ahead of Africa and South America - dude.

reply to post by audas

Like I said the power of denial.

Denial of what? That I don't want a government that has proven to not be in my best interest take over health care and decide what kind of treatment I get?

No I haven't ever lived there, thought about it, but probably ever won't.

I really don't know what you are trying to get at, it really sounds like more America bashing. So I'm sorry if I have to dismiss everything you say.

Because your argument goes like every other America bashing argument, which is basically, America sucks, you don't have this that we do and don't have that that we do, you should be more like us.

Also sorry if I don't believe some report that comes from a committee of America haters that ranks us low.

I don't choose to remain ignorant, that is just a claim that you make because I disagree with your ideology.

Edit to add -

I like the country that I live in every country has it's problems including the one you live in.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by Hastobemoretolife]

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife



No this is NOT America bashing - you are reacting like this because you are overly sensitive to any criticism of America, even worse you simply refuse to accept that there may be better options. Further you are not even willing to consider the facts as they refute your world view.

Your opinion of America is based on ignorance - you do not even understand how other systems operate or if they are perhaps a better option, in fact you will not even consider it as they may draw into question your premeditated assumptions regarding America - this is DENIAL of the worst kind.

It is not America bashing to simply point out the facts - these are irrefutable hard facts about the reality of the world - attempting to dismiss them as being un-american or american bashing is profoundly unintelligent.

Why would you not want to find out whether or not there are better, more efficient means to allocate public resources for the benefit of your own people ? Why is that you would rather deny yourself the knowledge of this in order to protect your own false beliefs regarding your country which inevitably only serves to harm you and your people ?

Is it so incredibly hard for you to admit that America is simply one of many countries and not the greatest at everything ?

Odd.

Originally posted by audas

Not sure what you are getting at with poor people have plasmas

Perhaps he was pointing out that Americans are far from impoverished in many ways, first being quality of life.

- since they are ALL made in countries like South Korea where the general population is decades ahead in technology - Japan has gigabyte download speeds -

Red herring? What? ever heard of silicon valley? look into it.

EU is behind ASIA as an economic powerhouse, while the US is behind the EU

Enjoy, you must have been waiting 100 years to say such things.

ASIA? As a whole? Just throw a whole continent in there ..I can tell you this, I would rather live in Texas than in Bejing anyday.

The US was founded by the British on the whole

Perhaps the 13 Colonies .. Tell me, what Brit founded Texas? Florida? California? Was it the Archduke of San Antonio?

not Americans, Americans did not get away from Britain - got that -

So much for the flag waving clap-trap...

further you were under British rule and are almost entirely based upon British institutions to this day

Yeah..sure. That's a pretty broad brush there, ponce. I am sure there are some "institutions" that you can apply that too.. But the road goes both ways. And for you to deny that ...is well, illogical.

And yes America is relatively impoverished compared to most of the advanced European countries

HA! Really... Like Luxenbourg? Do you have any idea how tiny those "advanced Eurpoean countries" are? Do you realize people in London ect. struggle their whole lives to procure a flat or townhome. Wheras here in Texas we have vast sprawling acreage. I have a 4,000 sq ft. 5 bedroom 3 bath home on 1 acre. With 3 other plots of land equalling 25 acres both developed and undeveloped across the region. Also have two homes and land in Mexico as well.

Tell me I can do that in jolly ole England.

Oh and get this-- I ain't rich, not even close. Smart perhaps, but I am snuggly wedged into the middle class category.

you wouldn't know because you choose to remain ignorant. I don't even understand why you argue the point when there is no possible way for you to know - you have clearly never lived there.

I want to go to Prague... I doubt the Czech Republic makes your "eliteist" list of advanced countries though. A very good friend of mine lived in Vienna for three years, teaching English he said it was nice... not anything to write home about, and if you didn't speak German they were quite rude. He also said that those land locked european countries were always in diplomacy with Russia so they wouldn't shut their GAS off. heh.

Further there are an abundance on non-European countries which offer universal health care - ok.

Good for YOU.

Your arguments are simply driven from ignorance and fear rather than any acknowledgement of the facts or udnerstanding of the issues -

Understanding bloated, bad legislation is not ignorance. Understanding the ineptness of large scale projects regulated by the government is not fear.

You are just ahead of Africa and South America - dude.

When did Bangladesh surpass us? Just Kidding, you have a lot to learn.

reply to post by audas

No this is NOT America bashing - you are reacting like this because you are overly sensitive to any criticism of America, even worse you simply refuse to accept that there may be better options.

I had to stop right there.

Telling me the country I live in is impoverished and is viewed as backwards is not American bashing?

No, I'm reacting the way I am because you have taken it upon your self to decide that you know what is best for me and everybody else in America.

What better options? let's take the UK, surveillance society, pretty darn close to Orwel's book Nineteen Eight Four. Although America isn't that far behind, heck they are still subjects to the queen.

Umm, I know let's take Sweden, yep they are breaking away from the "progressive" model. I know let's take Germany, didn't they just try or did ban certain video games?

Umm, I know let's take the Netherlands, actually they are more free market than what America is at the moment. How about.... France, oh yes France, where the unemployment rate hovers around 8% even in the best of economies and it's hard to get a job because the Unions run the place.

Spain, yep they are trying to get away from cap and trade, caused a super high unemployment rate and cost way more than they thought, in fact I think just about all of Europe is trying to get away from Cap and Trade, because it didn't work like they thought it would.

Oh yea one last thing, basing off the results of the elections all of Europe is trying to get away from left. Also I'm not a fan of a super government body that imposes laws upon sovereign countries.

Let me clue you into something, the best option is freedom, you know why? Because it gives me the ability to do just about anything that I want, if I want to go and make a million dollars then I can try really hard and do it, if I want to go live on the street then I can go do it. If I want to make just enough to get by then I can do it.

Trying to convince me that governmental bodies should take care of people when they are down and out isn't going to happen. Now there is some leeway in my thought about that, but I'm not getting into it here.

I am for self-sufficiency, if people can learn to survive on their own then everybody is better off, when you give people stuff they become dependent and don't know anything else. Just like a wild animal if you keep them in captivity they forget how to hunt and survive on their own, if you release them into the wild they end up dying.

That is why you see people that have spent most of their lives in prison ultimately end up back there because they have become dependent on the prison system to survive, they don't know anything else but that.