Skepticism: A Call to Arms

Originally posted by azure-door
I was quoting from another thread. starwarp2000 says he has my IP and he's going to investigate me because I hurt his feelings. I am now quite literally #ting myself.

he really rattled your cage huh?

Never pays to mess with spooks

reply to post by converge

I want to make a comment in this thread. However, so much has been said so well, I am struggling to see where I can add much value.

Perhaps I can add a personal observation, based on a discussion I was trying to have in another thread.

In that thread, I had 4-5 goes at offering some evidence & rational discussion as to the nature of an object the op had stated was an extraordinary craft (i.e. “extraterrestrial” or “terrestrial black ops”).

Because I offered a point of view contrary to the op, I was immediately & rudely branded as a “disinfo agent” by the op.

All I was trying to do was offer interesting points of conjecture regarding the material the op & I had posted.

Isn't that the whole point of ATS?

As I wrote in that thread, I would probably be amongst the most excited people on this forum if I could truly believe that extraterrestrials were visiting Earth.

But, how can I arrive at that belief if I don't explore what I see as other possibilities?

Originally posted by azure-door
I was quoting from another thread. starwarp2000 says he has my IP and he's going to investigate me because I hurt his feelings. I am now quite literally #ting myself.

I checked the thread and the posts. Starwarp can't have your IP unless SiteAdmin gave it to him...they wouldn't. If he had it, he can't 'investigate' you. What happened is you went in to that thread and tried to 'debunk' and got zapped. You also made the big mistake of presuming the members on that thread were stupid. Some are VERY bright folk and well-educated. You're new and got carried away. Cool your jets and post on a few threads you agree with. If they want to believe in Stargates, it's nobody's problem. Thread's been running a long time.

A lot of THIS thread is explaining what a skeptic is. It's someone that considers evidence...ideally, ALL the evidence. If you disagree with someone's ideas, say it quietly and add some links. The Stargate thread was a great example of crashing a thread and shouting, "This is BS!!" at the guys enjoying it. It's the internet and all, but we can be polite to each other.

One more, little known element of being skeptical...it means admitting you're wrong more often than true believers and debunkers.

Welcome to ATS Shooting Gallery

reply to post by Sam60


I know the thread you are talking about. It was WRONG for the OP to say that, but sometimes the passion involved in this field overcomes good sense and rationale. I wouldn't let anything ever said in this field (or any for that matter) shake you up too bad.

But yes, the purpose is to be scientific and ALWAYS QUESTION until a likely explanation can be reached. This is the MOST IMPORTANT aspect to remember n ufology, in my humble opinion. Also keep in mind that sometimes when someone has evidence they believe to be solid and "debunker proof" they do not take to kindly to persons who come in "debunking" so confidently, also a lot of times it is a defense mechanism because they know that your (or anyone's) explanation is just as likely, if not more so than theirs. It is the people that still do not understand the need for a pure scientific approach to UFOs that are holding us back, the biggest thing right now IMO is this constant and growing 'internal cancer' in ufology. How can we get anything done if we keep fighting amongst ourselves?

I still consider myself a more 'liberal believer', I know I believe things that many others think are bs but we all have reasons for such beliefs. As long as we stay open to other, peer reviewed interpretation and do not get fanatical about our beliefs it is okay to differ in opinion case by case. If ufology is to be considered a legit science then we must treat it like a legitimate science. The scientific method has not failed us yet, so I see no reason not to use it in ufology. Again the problem becomes egos, personal experiences, and the ever growing religious-like aspect of ufology. We need to be sure we stay as neutral and thus unbiased as possible, if we can do that I think we will be okay and will be able to push this field of the levels it so obviously deserves---Legitimate and dignified status amongst the scientific and mainstream world, not just the fringe.

I am becoming skeptical about these skeptic threads.

Originally posted by Total Package
Can't agree. Science has a limited place in Ufology. Science does not have the tools to cope and is too inflexible. Science are a set of flawed rules created by humans.

Just out of curiosity, what would then be in your opinion, the right tool to cope with the UFO and related phenomena?

So with all that in mind... why the hell should Science be used as any sort of measuring tool.

I think I and other members have already made substantiated arguments on why ufology should be a scientific field. If you don't agree, that's fine, you're in your right.

As you probably have noticed by now I have little respect for those who work in the science field because the majority of them are only there to make money...

Unlike Greer et al. who are clearly in ufology for the good of the field and finding out the truth eh?

Originally posted by azure-door

Never pays to mess with spooks

Yes I see that, so you are spooks then? Have you hacked into my computer yet?

You're an excitable fella. Nobody has hacked your computer. They can't. Zorgon's graphic only tells the person who's looking at it their IP. If I look at it, it tells me mine. ATS is just a message board and you annoyed Zorgon in at least two ways that I can tell. Like I said, cool your jets. Telling someone Stargates don't exist won't bring Govt agents to snoop your PC. If anyone gets snooped it'll be folks on the Stargate thread for blowing the cover that Stargate SG-1 is a real time fly on the wall documentary

Gotta say you've made an impression! Take it easy

reply to post by azure-door


I've gotta agree with kardinsky, CHILL OUT MAN. No one is hacking your computer, NO ONE is coming to "get you". It was a JOKE.........

redacted Saurons sword is bigger than mine










[edit on 12-8-2009 by zorgon]

Originally posted by converge
Just out of curiosity, what would then be in your opinion, the right tool to cope with the UFO and related phenomena?

Military... go out and catch one of em... make em talk
Then give the body to science for autopsy...


errrr well that should work

EDITED completely for irrelevance...

[edit on 8/12/2009 by jkrog08]

That will be enough of the childish nonsense, it stops now.

Discuses the topic not each other, have no problem giving out post bans.
This is my one and only warning.

Sauron.
Moderator

Originally posted by Sam60
I want to make a comment in this thread. However, so much has been said so well, I am struggling to see where I can add much value.

Perhaps I can add a personal observation, based on a discussion I was trying to have in another thread.

In that thread, I had 4-5 goes at offering some evidence & rational discussion as to the nature of an object the op had stated was an extraordinary craft (i.e. “extraterrestrial” or “terrestrial black ops”).

Because I offered a point of view contrary to the op, I was immediately & rudely branded as a “disinfo agent” by the op.

All I was trying to do was offer interesting points of conjecture regarding the material the op & I had posted.

Isn't that the whole point of ATS?

As I wrote in that thread, I would probably be amongst the most excited people on this forum if I could truly believe that extraterrestrials were visiting Earth.

But, how can I arrive at that belief if I don't explore what I see as other possibilities?

Don't think your remarks aren't noticed. I have had the same experience so often it has become normal for me.

The unfortunate nature of these exchanges is that they become opportunities to engage in heated discussions and put downs rather than information and point of view exchanges.

More cathartic to cal someone an idiot that to point out weaknesses in their arguments.

That's the Internet, that's conspiracy forums, that's life.

I'd love to discuss the UFO phenomenon in a reasonable manner with open-minded people but it rarely seems to get very far. At least around here.

In other discussion forums elsewhere there is a tendency to be co-operative and reinforcing. But less so in this one.

I have often gone off-list with people I find engaging, and find it better without the noise to signal ration online. Maybe this place will go more in that direction.


Mike

Originally posted by Total Package
So with all that in mind... why the hell should Science be used as any sort of measuring tool...

Then what kind of measuring tool would you use? How do you propose to prove the existence of things such as aliens and psychic abilities without using science.

What we can take away from your anti-science invective is that you are a gross misunderstanding of what science is. When science is unable to substantiate your beliefs, via tried-and-true methods that has resulted in innumerable progress in our understanding of our universe, instead of re-examining your beliefs, you blame science. You do not see it as an failing of your evidence or that your evidence points in a direction you had not, or will not, consider but see it as a failing of science. It is not you who is wrong, but everyone else. That is the height of arrogance.

reply to post by mmiichael


You just aren't taking note of the right posters on ATS, there are quite a few great ones.

Originally posted by jkrog08
reply to post by mmiichael

 

You just aren't taking note of the right posters on ATS, there are quite a few great ones.

You're right and it was unfairly dismissive of me to generalize.

But one has to wade through more and more these days to get to the thoughtful stuff.

When it took a couple minutes that wasn't a problem. At some point it just becomes such an effort and so time consuming to go through pages and pages.

Wish there was something like a board for the kids and one for the grown-ups.

Don't shoot me for thinking that way.


Mike

Originally posted by mmiichael
I'd love to discuss the UFO phenomenon in a reasonable manner with open-minded people but it rarely seems to get very far. At least around here.
In other discussion forums elsewhere there is a tendency to be co-operative and reinforcing. But less so in this one.

I've noticed this too, and it's a shame because besides being a long time lurker on ATS, I think ATS had/has a lot of potential of actually being a shining beacon of good information and serious discussions on alternative topics.

Unfortunately it seems more and more the quality of the discussion is declining, on the Aliens & UFOs forum at least. Hence my call to arms.

You're right and it was unfairly dismissive of me to generalize.
But one has to wade through more and more these days to get to the thoughtful stuff.

I agree with jkrog, there is a considerable number of serious and critical thinking members and I see their posts every day, but the thoughtful posts and discussions most of the time get lost between all the crap and mmiichael has a point here.

Wish there was something like a board for the kids and one for the grown-ups.

I remember a while back a member starting a thread asking for the Aliens & UFOs forum to be split into 2 forums, one for more serious discussions and research and the other, well, the other for everything else.

I think overall people didn't like the idea. A shame in my opinion.

reply to post by azure-door


With regards to when you asked, "Is it possible to measure a 'quality'? " I'll say this.

Science as it currently exists is in a sad state because it divides and discards. Rather than dividing and understanding things in their own right.

[edit on 13-8-2009 by Xtraeme]

reply to post by Xtraeme


Of course science discards. Science is an entirely "material" method/philosophy. When there is no evidence(evidence may mean something different to the non-scientist) that can be tested and verified, it is discarded. I think there is some quite good evidence that UFOs MAY be some kind of intelligently controlled craft. Most of what is spouted as "evidence" on these sites boils down to unsupported claims. Then we have people who are supposedly big names in the UFO world giving talks about Grays vs. Reptilians... I can't really blame Bob Sheaffer, Joe Nickell, et al for thinking we are all wing-nuts.