Gun-loving pastor to his flock: Piece be with you

reply to post by dooper


I acknowledged from the start that there are complex issues at stake in the wider picture. I have simply sought to show that Christ called his followers to worship, not violence.

What you have related above is horrific. To me what it says above all is that the land in which you found yourself desparately needs the transforming and healing power of the Gospel. Reconciliation with God, and between men and women.

I trust we can agree here.

(Maybe you have or could yet play a role in that. That is between you and the One we seek to follow.)

reply to post by pause4thought


Pause, there's a whole lot of land that need transforming.

"If you fail under pressure, your strength is not very great. Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don't stand back and let them die. Don't try to avoid responsibility by saying you didn't know about it. He keeps watch over your soul, and he knows you knew! And he will judge all people according to what they have done." Proverbs 24: 10-11

"Do not withhold good from those who deserve it, when it is in your power to act." Proverbs 2:3

No reason a good man can't have a gun in one hand and the Good Book in the other.

Both can teach.

As to those that would have us believe that Christ was a pacifist, Luke 22:36.

reply to post by Viking04


Here's the verse you quote:

And he said to them, "...let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one."

It is followed one sentence later by:

And they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And he said to them, "It is enough".

...which, as I pointed out above sounds far more like an illustration (like when he asked for a coin, two chapters before, and used it to illustrate his teaching) than a literal call to arms.



reply to post by dooper



There are many ways of standing for justice and also intervening without using violence. They can be far more effective, generate less hate, and are more Christ-like, I believe.

In the case in hand I believe it behooves the pastor in question to consider such alternatives.

You are very welcome to debate me on the issues further over here:

Violent Protest is not the Answer

I don't claim to have all the answers, but I do find such discussions enlightening.

reply to post by alyosha1981


I dont have a problem with this here, and I am for the second amendment.

But, and this is a big but, it is hard to deny the statistics that show the number of deaths due to handguns. The deaths are much higher when a large ratio of the population owns handguns.

It is just so damn horrible when you hear about some kid killing someone or himself because he found a hidden gun or something like that.

Im not for disarming the public, but something should be done...the question is, what?

It seems to me that a place of communal worship is about spirituality, humility, forgiveness, and seeking oneness with God. .

Guns are about imposing deadly force and aggression, the complete antithesis of spirituality.

Bringing guns into a church is sacrilege, and an abomination.

It could only happen in America.

Originally posted by Silver Shadow
It seems to me that a place of communal worship is about spirituality, humility, forgiveness, and seeking oneness with God. .

Guns are about imposing deadly force and aggression, the complete antithesis of spirituality.

Bringing guns into a church is sacrilege, and an abomination.

It could only happen in America.

This uneducated view is the problem with anti-gun advocates! Guns are not, and should not be about aggression, and they do not have to impose deadly force.

Throughout history guns have been tools. Shoot food. Shoot snakes scaring your horses. Shoot wolves attacking your flock. And, sometimes, the wolves come in the shape of men, and the flock is unarmed in your pews! Why not arm the flock?

The mere mention of a gun will often deter a crime. The idea that someone may be armed at all will deter crime. I have mentioned several personal incidents in other threads where guns were excellent deterrents, and they never even had to be seen!

Guns are not aggressive; guns are inanimate! People are aggressive, and when bad people get guns, they do aggressive things with them, and they get away with it, because of the naive view of some of the good people. Do you think any one who knows Dooper has ever considered breaking into his home, or mugging him on the street?!?

Here is a scenario for you to prove guns are not aggressive, and that they do actually deter crime:
Suppose you and Dooper go to the same church and it is filled with good people, and everyone knows both of your views. Now suppose a youth group of teenager is trying to do good things for the community, and they do an outreach program. They befriend some kids that have some problems, and they minister to them, and they even bring them to church. The kids talk and gossip a little, and the gun views of you and Dooper come out in the conversation. Now one of those kids happens to relapse over the following days, and he is not in control, and he has to break into someone's home for a fix! I wonder who's home he will consider first, middle, and last. He knows for certain Dooper has a gun, and will use it. He knows much of the church may also be armed, because the state has lax gun laws, and because of the open discussion in the church and the friendliness to Doop. Now, he also knows that you are a pacifist and are not armed, and will not resist! I think I know where his break-in will occur, and your pacifism will not only embolden his crime, it will enable him to continue his negative behaviour and someone will eventually get hurt or killed because of it! Now the crime occured, not because you or the criminal had a gun. It occured all on its own. The gun only served to defend Dooper's house, and others associated with him, and it did so without ever leaving its drawer or being seen by the perpetrator at all!!! How is that sacreligious, aggressive, or deadly?

[edit on 29-6-2009 by getreadyalready]

they have also changed the bible to read "chamber another round" instead of "turn the other cheek".

My family from the early 1800's till around 1940 always carried arms to church with them. Folks kept burning our churches down and killing the occupants. That is till Porter Rockwell stopped that from happening and to maintain that security the members kept it up till the 40's. It was quite normal for folks to carry arms with them to church and lay the rifles under the pews in many denominations of Christianity. It looks more and more that this will again become the norm with the way folks attack church goers in this day and age!

Zindo

reply to post by alyosha1981


This is a fantastic idea. The pastor said:

bring thy guns, shoot thy neighbor

in the end, it's just a horrible idea

reply to post by Silver Shadow

Silver Shadow, I think you make the same mistake as others do. You apparently thing a church building has some elevated position over, say, a barn.

The "Church" as described in the New Testament, is the MEMBERS of the body of Christ.

The Catholic Church and others have "created" a type of "relic mentality" and we find in Christianity, in the early Church, and in the New Testament teachings that none of that stuff has any meaning in of itself.

Of course the Catholic Church was proactively keeping the New Testament from "Christians." and succeeded for 1260 years.

The Church are the members, and it matters not whether they meet in a designated building, or a barn. Both structures are equally "holy."

Meaning, not at all.

So for me to carry a firearm into a church building or a barn means nothing to our Creator, and is one equal to another.