Gay Rights

Originally posted by xxpigxx
I would like to know what RIGHTS are taken away from a couple in a civil union as opposed to a marriage.

All I read is rights are taken away. No one gives any examples.

The Constitution of the USA gives no rights regarding either. It states that any rights not specifically enumerated are delegated to the states.

Therefore, marriage is defined by the state, and more specifically, the people of the state.

There is no RIGHTS issue involved. To compare it to the Civil Rights movements (black equality, women's equality, etc) is fallacy, and a disgrace to those movements.

If you do not live as mainstream society lives, why do expect to have the same BENEFITS of mainstream society?

[edit on 26/5/2009 by xxpigxx]

Here we go again!

The basic right being denied is the Right to Equal Treatment Under the Law for ALL Citizens.


It is not sufficient to claim that, since a "Civil Union", or "Domestic Partnership" provides most, or even all, the same "benefits" as "Marriage", such designations should be enough for those denied an "actual" marriage.

"Separate but Equal" has been long defeated as a legal justification for social segregation, be it of minority races or women's sufferage (voting rights).

Equal Treatment Under the Law is intrinsic to the very concept of what we commonly refer to as Civil Rights. To claim otherwise belies a twisted and fallacious interpetation of the term.

If the law does not serve all citizens equally, the law may be used to disserve some citizens, unfairly.

This is one of the injustices that the founders of our Nation sought to correct in formulating our land: To end the oft-unjust rule of Kings, whereby the Law was whatever the Rulers decided it was, in their best interests, to the woe of the ruled.


To claim that only the "mainstream" may determine what and how the populace may live their lives, even unto the intimacy of two (or more) consenting adults sharing their lives, is to embark upon a very slippery slope towards social facism.


Please, please consider:


If the mob can rule that one particular group, in this case, homosexuals, may be denied equal treatment under the law, there is Nothing to prevent another mob, at a later date, from denying those some rights to any other group they deign to identify.


Only next time, YOU may be part of that group!.

[edit on 27-5-2009 by Bhadhidar]

I don't care if they get benefits for being a legally united couple. Marriage was created so a man and woman can symbolically unite as ONE spiritual entity. That's what makes marriage beautiful. If they want the legal benefits, call it a Gay Union or Homosexual Marriage or something, construct a couple of gay wedding chapels, and let them go to town! It can mean the same thing on paper and as far as the government is concerned, but it will never be a "Holy Union!"

reply to post by KarlG


I think the so called christians that want to control what the state does, desire to create a second class citizenship for gays lesbians and transgenders. These christian theocrats motives come from very selfish and narcissistic desires. Which are: to get those rewards in heaven,be god's favorite or'chosen' one ,get to be a priest king and feel invincible and invulnerable and vindicated. The more bigoted among those that believe in this particular nasty flavor of monotheism think by forcing others to live like they do will somehow get them on god's favorites list.

The Narcissistic control freak fundies out there want the law to tell gays they cannot be treated equal to christian citizens ,.Theocrat dominionists want to pretend being gay is a choice,while denying there IS a CHOICE involved in choosing a belief system.The theocrats are hypocrites.And they think playing with the laws of the land to codify these control games is not seen through by others regardless of the cherry picked verses supporting an invalid status quo that tolerates abuse because it has no idea what abuse IS,and is still intent on bullying (gays ,transgenders,women,abortion doctors,pagans,atheists..etc.)The fundamentalists whine because society has outgrown them,and no longer lets them get away with it anymore.

The homophobic are really arrogant assuming they know what an UNKNOWABLE god likes or doesn't like based in what they, themselves are made uncomfortable by,or are taught to not like,all based on a book not everyone thinks is sacred or even believable..Such behavior of certain types of christians is nothing but hypocritical pride that somehow in self denial about it as they do it will please this bible god they are so sure is out there sanctioning them to be so bigoted..Homophobia by straights makes no sense without a belief in christianity to prop it up. So why do they do it? Do they really think being a bully to gay people will get them more perks in the afterlife? Fundamentalist christians who are trying to impose their belief system on this country by wheedling it into state and federal laws are scared,bigoted, indolent ,infantalized theocrats.

True believers are blind as ever still using ambigous biblical language,interpreting it as they want it while stirring up fears of damnation,making threats of social collapse to excuse and rationalize whatever that inner sociopath that they have inside desperate to dominate others and excuse the abuse of whomever they declare the scapegoat du jour. I for one notice the narcissism motivating certain kinds of believers and it truly disgusts me they are even taken seriously by anyone anymore.And these "good christian" monsters would be loathe to admit what is really motivating their own homophobia, is a narcissistic desire to control other people's lives and deny them happiness and equal social status in order to maintain a false and arbitrary sectarian social hegemony that is rapidly fading as more people learn the history of religion including the ugly parts. Everything has it's time to die away and this includes the socially conservative,bigoted and abusive forms of christian fundamentalism.

This is my own thoughts on all this.I know some will disagree some will agree I don't care which,I just wanted to say my own thoughts here.I am so frustrated over all this,it is so wrong to deny marriage to gay people it's unconstitutional and it's banal.And yeah, I am angry about it.

Sorry to flame, but.. I suppose I'm old school.
Decoy

Oh SO, what's gay rights to do with this site's fundamentals?

Dallas

I agree that religion has a lot to do with it, but seriously, aren't you living in a country who's pledge of allegiance has the words `under god'..... so please explain to me, you want to live in a christian based country.... and you want the right to go against that pledge.....

I'm totally Canadian! If only we had something in our profile that showed our location in the world

Originally posted by CherryDuck

Maybe they should think of moving. You say, shame on those who don't think homosexuals deserve the same happiness as everyone else? They do deserve happiness, but what you need to understand that many christians, like myself, would see that passing this law would be like giving them a ticket to hell, and throwing in a free drink. I'm not a bible basher, and no, i don't go to church every sunday, but the reason we think these things, or at least christians who are preaching through love, not hate, is because we LOVE these people, and in no way would we try to HELP them sin, we want to help them so that hopefully someday they will stand at the pearly gates.

[edit on 27/5/09 by CherryDuck]

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

You want to help them get rid of their sin, so that they can go to heaven, in the afterlife.

Till now I haven't really felt the slightest condescension for anyone on ATS at all, but you, my friend... wow.

You are Christian. I absolutely respect that.

But to treat someone IN THIS LIFE with the thought of ensuring he goes to someplace well AFTER THIS LIFE... that's just priceless.

I've heard of "planning for the future", but this is ridiculous. They are living IN THIS LIFE. Treat them as they are IN THIS LIFE. Don't hope for them to stand in front of the pearly gates. I think they would rather take their chances with this gay-hating God than take their chances with a population of gay-"helping" people like you.

You are living IN THIS LIFE. Fair enough, if you're Christian, that you're doing things for the hope that you will go to Heaven once you're dead. But that DOES not mean you completely neglect what you SHOULD be doing for the other people who are existing IN THIS TIME and IN THIS PLACE, who may be Christian, who may not be Christian, who may want to have equality for ALL, who may just want to be happy about their status.

Don't give excuses for your viewpoints. We are ALL different, and that's what makes us homo sapiens. If you find gay marriage ridiculous and stupid a concept, just say so. Don't hide it behind religion. If that's a factor, good. But then, name more.

[edit on 28-5-2009 by KarlG]

Originally posted by Decoy
Oh SO, what's gay rights to do with this site's fundamentals?

Dallas

It's 'rights' and 'oppression'.

ATS, and its members, are against the oppression of rights.

At least, I thought so, until now.

reply to post by KarlG


i have pride in my religion darling, and i have no need to hide behind it. Also have you actually taken the time to read my other posts in this topic, here i do view my different opinions (besides religion) on this topic? Maybe you should do hat before flaming this 1 post.

[edit on 31/5/09 by CherryDuck]

Well this thread was obviously going to boil down to a "god" vs the rest of the world scenario.

And I, a gay man, somewhat agree with the Christians on this. I don't believe it should be called "marriage". Marriage IS, regardless of how much time has changed or how people are treating marriages, a religious institution.

It's a religious practice. We have no right to take that away from them. We really don't care what it's called, so long as we receive all of the benefits aloted to straight couples.

There is no reason to have things done otherwise. It's the governments right to force churches to "marry" homosexuals. Just like it isn't the right of the church to dictate who receives benefits and who doesnt.

This whole thing has been blown completely out of proportion. To the Christians who have said they want to help people get into heaven, that's not your job. It's our own responsibility to account for our actions and strive to ge the best person we can be.

You guys should let God judge us for our sins, and leave your opinion out of it. You could be wrong, don't ever forget that.

Any other argument against Gay Marriage other than the one I have listed above about it's religious background are completely baseless and without merit.

My love for my husband is no different than the love of a man and a woman. Parts are optional in love.

Furthermore if you aren't a homosexual, then why does this affect you? It certainly doesn't. The ones who say taxpayers have a right to say where their tax money goes. Who asked you to go to war? Who funnels your money and gives it away to other nations who use that money to oppress other cultures?

Your government has never asked you where you want tax money to go. You just think they do that right thing because you have "elected" officials that work for "you". We all know this isn't the case.

I'm beginning the think this conflict is ongoing because certain people on both sides of the aisle are making alot of money with this fiasco.

~Keeper

Double post.....


Sorry mods..

~Keeper



[edit on 5/31/2009 by tothetenthpower]