The UFO enigma and high strangeness... you want truth?

Hello everyone,

This thread is intended for those who truly seek the truth as to what may be behind the UFO enigma. Im not talking about the mainstream conclusions or generally accepted public/consumer preconceived notions...Im talking the hard-core, stark, flat reality behind and involved in the phenomenon.

These views are not "popular" or even widely accepted because they do not fit into a shiny, marketable little package that can be sold to Joe Schmoe to turn a buck. Thats not why Im here... I do not make a living or more to the point will ever receive any monetary gain for my interests in this field.

I am here merely as a student or researcher who is trying to gain knowledge and figure just what these UFO's are or represent, because of an experience I had concerning this very subject.

There is a phenomenon being witnessed by people from all walks of life that cannot be easily defined or explained yet is continually packaged as something that the general population has been conditioned to accept for the last 60 years... (and perhaps much, much longer..) "spaceships from other planets" and "aliens"...why?
Because they sell.... they permeate our pop culture and can be seen from movies to our children's cereal boxes. It is a huge marketing cash cow and many people make their living off of it.

It also just happens to make a convenient "cover" to test and develop experimental craft. Much easier to blame it on "spacemen" or the ambiguous guise of the UFO.

There is a grossly unexplored or just plain ignored side to this phenom that relates to para-normal or "high strangeness" that cannot be denied if one truly wishes to ascertain any type of understanding as to the "consciousnesses manifesting" these anomalies. There is something about this phenomenon that cannot be explained by conventional Newtonian principles... something elusive and intangible, yet as real and solid as the keyboard in front of you.

In a previous thread titled Ok, so UFO's are REAL...now what? I took a tally. I offered an opportunity for people to state what exactly they thought UFO's are or represent. The results were expected .... but none the less shocking as to the margins of widely accepted or "believed" opinions. As to be expected the most commonly held opinion was that UFO's are extraterrestrial in nature or that the ETH (extraterrestrial hypothesis) is the answer.
This view was closely followed by the belief that most sightings were of experimental craft, developed by the worlds Governments

For brevity's sake I will post a reply to that thread made by a friend of mine that completely mirrors my own opinions.

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr Jeff Ritzmann:

"State what you think they are."

I don't know.

Best guess based on experience and data available? A consciousness that has been around as long if not much longer then we have. They are a manifestation of a something, that doesn't (as we do) depend on physical reality to "exist" in the classic sense. They *can* be real, but they don't have to be.

They do, however depend somewhat on us to manifest themselves as something we can perceive, and that perception is tailored to the individual perceiving it, and current cultural views.

I feel that they are an external force, but not so separated from us. They are as far away as distant galaxies and closer then we dared think, or for that matter, closer then we'd probably be comfortable with.

What are they here for? I don't know. It could be that they're trying to influence our minds to evolve, to suggest ideas, and evoke discussion that will change us.

Scary when we don't even know who they are.

The ETH is a comfortable theory, but it doesn't match the presented phenomena. This has become the common answer, the easiest scenario...however we are clearly not dealing with an easy enigma. This is one far more complex then it's given credit for. However, in the capitalist society, spacemen sell. I have no doubt, that what the public or media calls "top researchers", have been holding out on you. I know this for fact by the way, not hearsay. There is a "paranormal" aspect to the UFO that mainstream researchers won't address, because it becomes unpalatable to the consumer.

It's convoluted enough right? No need to add that high weirdness stuff to it all. The issue is the general public doesn't have an accurate portrayal of the UFO/alien phenomena...and has summarily adopted a theory that doesn't pass the filter of complexity.

Now, you get where we stand today, where the phenomena is shoved into a very earth-bound pedestrian answer and accepted out of hand because dammit...people want answers, right.

Talk to some of the elder researchers worth their salt. They'll tell you after 50 some odd years of study, this ain't about ETs. Few of them will admit it publicly, because they've built a reputation on an ETH platform. A platform of belief, not theory, that has yielded NO answers, NO physical proof, and no progression on answers. But it's yielded plenty of fakes and charlatans.

This phenomena has not become more explicit. It has remained elusive and on the edge of our perceptions. I would suggest that the true "alien" is SO alien it'll will make your jaw hit the floor. It's not to be marginalized.

That high strangeness issue no one addresses, is where at least better questions lay, if not a possibility of answers.

Lets look at one aspect: the shape and "design" of the "craft". Different aren't they? As varied as we are. And I would contend, because we help in some way to manifest them based on expectation and perception derived from current culture mindsets.

We are already being informed that Newtonian physics is in for serious revision. Reality existing based on the observer. We may have more to do with "reality" then we care to know. Everyone is so quick to dismiss the psychological - when perception, experience, and our very concept of reality...is ALL psychological.

So the question ultimately becomes for me, when we say "real", what do we mean. Exactly.

This is to me, where the solution to the UFO issue might be.

The purpose of this thread is to open peoples eyes and shed the old stigmas.
I cannot express the importance of this "opinion"... that has been tempered with personal experiences, and combined research.. that these views must be explored if anyone sincerely and objectively wants to get to the TRUTH of the enigma...

Great post. I tend to agree. However, I don't think it's an 'either/or' situation - "either they are physical ET's from somewhere in the ohysical universe or they are interdimensional nonphysical beings". I suspect the phenomena we observe derive from both and that they overlap at times.

Further, experience leads me to believe that we are both physical and nonphysical (we are both 'classically physical' and 'quantum physical', is another way of saying it, perhaps) and a greater, fuller, understanding of ourselves would lead to a greater understanding of the type of UFO phenomena you describe.

And you are right, this perspective is not popular, which is why so many 'experiencers' and those who propose direct contact through meditation etc. are dismissed and ridiculed at ATS.

[edit on 25-5-2009 by Malcram]

Star and Flag, simply found what Mr Jeff Ritzmann had to say as astonishing and made me re-evaluate what I have read on various forums, or even have seen on TV. Taking it into that concept of having more to do with reality than we once thought it reminded me of something I once read, where it stated that "Our perception of the external reality is created within' ourselves." I also remember this from my philosophy class last semester where it was more or less a thought at first (from Hume I believe?) I'd have to go back and double check; we were moving so fast through two books at the end I was starting to mesh a few of them together.

Anyway in the context that they are closer than we think, yet appear so far away and appear to be "moving in and out of reality" Haven't a few people stated that before at least on this forum?

reply to post by Malcram


Thank you for your thoughts. I tend to think that the sheer complexity of the enigma is part of the reason there never will be a full "disclosure". No one has a full grasp on how multi-faceted this subject is and that it may in fact span the bridge across many genre's and realities. For example this phenom may in fact be closely related to ALL things para-normal and in fact may include spiritual and physical worlds. There seem to be physical trace evidence of some of these happenings

reply to post by Gigantea Rosa



It is my belief that this is where the focus should be. . are these UFOs/aliens physical or spiritual manifestations of our own thoughts? Just what they represent and what are causing them remains to be determined. We may in fact effect our perceived realities much much more that we imagined or dreamed.

I know for my own personal CLOSE encounter of a UFO, I was driving to work with my girlfriend early in the morning... the last thing on my mid was UFO's. In fact I had never given the subject much thought at all before that encounter... so who's to say.

I believe it needs to be delved into much more seriously and with the same academia of physical evidence cases or reports... thanks for your thoughts!

reply to post by Alter-Ego


Excellent discussion!! This is a much needed and broader perspective on what is happening right now.

In one sense, there do appear to be advanced, intelligent "beings" interacting with us at all levels (physical, non-physical, etc.), and in myriad ways (sightings, so called "abductions," face to face contact, conscious, or subconscious communications, etc.).

But also tied in with these "contacts", whatever the source, are myriad other phenomena that people just seem to be lumping in with ET / ufos, because we simply don't have another category for all of this stuff.

Gigantea Rosa said it too, in a sense, that our realities - each of ours - is "created from within"; meaning, it is also not just somewhat subjective, but also that we literally create our realities, or our experience of reality.

I see so many different and amazing accounts of bizarre, paranormal and supernatural experiences on the increase - and all often so vastly different - that the only conclusion one can come to is that reality itself is shifting; and it's different for every individual.

There has been a lot of supernatural / paranormal / scientific, etc., talk about what we're experiencing now. The only two palatable answers or explanations that have been proffered are the easy "ET / ufos" and "2012" - BUT WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

People are experiencing sightings, contacts, psychic experiences and abilities, and more. Certainly, all of these things are related, but they don't easily fit in one category.

When you consider the possibility that this is more than just a contact situation, but something that means an alteration of physical reality as we know it, you are going to get some people to start "going out of their heads." The thought is very much like an acid trip - but it's reality.

There are people who haven't explored this stuff much, so as things continue to "test" our perception of reality, these people are going to become unwound first.

The universe is changing; and for those who cling too tightly to a rigid, strictly limited and physical vision of this existence these changes will literally be maddening.

I am experiencing odd things myself, which are clearly NOT "normal" given our current understanding of the laws of physics, and I am seeing them completely sober and in broad daylight.

I should also say for the record that I do not take drugs (prescription or otherwise), and I haven't had an alcoholic drink in months (no, I'm not on the wagon...Just not a big drinker).

The notion that what we are outwardly perceiving possibly originated from "within" us (given the very limited understanding we have as to our own origins, or what we truly are) is probably part and parcel of what is occurring.

It is also clear, however, that there are intelligent beings who are communicating with us simultaneous to this process, and are, to some degree, guiding us through this process.

It's possible that the shift that is occurring is also making these contacts more possible, and not the other way around.

Put simply, it appears that we are growing - very, very rapidly, into a greater understanding of our reality. And that reality is multidimensional, and NOTHING like the hard, physical reality we've taken it to be for so long.

It's a mind trip, to be sure. One that I'm anxious to continue to the next level.

Is it all "ET and ufo". Clearly the answer is no. They are a part of it, however, and as things progress, also, apparently, a part of us...

Thank you for starting this discussion. Looking forward to seeing where it goes...

Thank you all for your replies. Unfortunately the vast majority of people who frequent this board are sold on the main stream convoluted "nuts and bolts" platform, and to further the frustrations.. there are so called ufologists who the masses listen too... perpetuate this agenda for their own personal gain and not to actually gain an understanding of this phenom.

"Spaceships" and "aliens" sell.... it all boils down to the mighty dollar. What these people dont get is that fact is indeed sometimes stranger than fiction. The truth behind this enigma would probably blow all our minds and most people want to live inside their own little blind bubbles.... safe and stupid.

For those of you who know there is more to this than we are spoon fed, or who have experienced an actual encounter with this phenomenon, there is an element that cannot be readily explained by "craft/beings from another planet"... there is something else afoot and famous researchers like J. Allen Hynek and Jaques Valle' knew this as well..

This subject reminds me of a quote by Hynek :

When the UFO reports continued at a steady pace, Hynek devoted some time to studying the reports and determined that some were deeply puzzling, even after considerable study. He once said, "As a scientist I must be mindful of the past; all too often it has happened that matters of great value to science were overlooked because the new phenomenon did not fit the accepted scientific outlook of the time."

Hynek credentials were impeccable. He received a B.S. from the University of Chicago. In 1935, he completed his Ph.D. in astrophysics at Yerkes Observatory.

He joined the Department of Physics and Astronomy at Ohio State University in 1936. He specialized in the study of stellar evolution and in the identification of spectroscopic binaries.

During World War II, Hynek was a civilian scientist at the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory, where he helped to develop the United States Navy's radio proximity fuze.

After the war, Hynek returned to the Department of Physics and Astronomy at Ohio State, rising to full professor in 1950. The man really knew his stuff..

He headed up projects with the ambiguous names like Project Sign and Project Grudge and the infamous Project Blue Book.

Early in his career his mandate was to debunk UFO claims and he was even the individual for coining the phrase "swamp gas" as an explanation to possible UFO sightings. Through careful and rigorous scientific examination of thousands of cases, his views changed dramatically on the UFO subject.

After literally decades of research for the U.S. Air force and near the close of his career he made some very interesting and even startling statements:

Late in his life, Hynek was critical of the popular extraterrestrial hypothesis, and began expressing his doubts to theories that UFOs were physical spacecraft from other planets. As Hynek himself said in October 1976: "I have come to support less and less the idea that UFOs are 'nuts and bolts' spacecrafts from other worlds. There are just too many things going against this theory. To me, it seems ridiculous that super intelligences would travel great distances to do relatively stupid things like stop cars, collect soil samples, and frighten people. I think we must begin to re-examine the evidence. We must begin to look closer to home."

He went on to say in a paper he authored to the Joint Symposium of the American Institute of Aeronautics & Astronautics in 1975...

"If you object, I ask you to explain – quantitatively, not qualitatively – the reported phenomena of materialization and dematerialization, of shape changes, of the noiseless hovering in the earth's gravitational field, accelerations that – for an appreciable mass – require energy sources far beyond present capabilities – even theoretical capabilities, the well-known and often reported E-M (sc. electro-magnetic interference) effect, the psychic effects on recipients, including purported telepathic communications."

Why was this well educated and "in-the-know" scientists views, findings and research just swept under the rug? Because his beliefs were not "popular"...because people want to believe in "nuts and bolts" craft because we live in a 3-d "nuts and bolts" world.

It is my contention that it may be BOTH... physical AND non-physical. For the sake of argument, I'll say non-physical with the ability to MANIFEST physically. Its a shame that more serious researchers dont delve into the UFO reality... where physical boundaries are blurred and science and spiritualism overlap... unmistakeably.


References:

1. ^ "The J. Allen Hynek for UFO Studies". www.cufos.org...

2. ^ ISBN 978-1-56-924782-2 THE UFO EXPERIENCE: A scientific inquiry (1972)
3. ^ a b Schneidman and Daniels, 110
4. ^ a b Clark, Jerome (1998). The UFO Book: Encyclopedia of the Extraterrestrial. Visible Ink. pp. 305. ISBN 1578590299.
5. ^ "Chapter Three: The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects". NICAP. www.nicap.org... Retrieved on 2007-08-27.
6. ^ Druffel, Ann (2003). Firestorm: James E. McDonald's Fight for UFO Science. Wildflower Press. pp. 155. ISBN 0926524585.
7. ^ Vallée, Jacques (1957-1969). Forbidden Science: Journals. Berkeley, Calif.: North Atlantic Books. pp. 426.
8. ^ Vallée, Revelations: Alien Contact and Human Deception, 290
9. ^ Fuller, Curtis (1980). Proceedings of the First International UFO Congress. New York: Warner Books. pp. 156.
10. ^ "Dr. J. Allen Hynek Speaking at the United Nations, Nov. 27th 1978". www.ufoevidence.org...

Your thread fits quite well with its content to my resolution of about two years ago which through spirituality consciousness and the new theory of everything binds a lot of stuff together to make sense. Its the extension of "The Secret"
that many think to contemplate until they/we evolve through it and see that its far bigger than initially conceived, and so on the next day.... but only when you stop and have a thought over things within the new picture in your mind to further progress.

It is interesting how the mind takes brakes before coming up to the next step.
The meantime just flows carelessly until ready to progress through this in consciousness which is a strange thing indeed all by itself.

I hope this is not just some crazy yada dada to most of you...


p.s. i never read the book that outlines some secret....... I ' ve heard of what it talks about when i was allready there... more or less

EDIT: To add the following vid which for some reason i think i must post here..


I guess it will make a different impression on different people, but such is art. Different people see different things through it depending on how deep they look.

[edit on 27/5/2009 by GEORGETHEGREEK]

After years of personal study and research, and a childhood full of strange and mysterious memories, I would have to say that you are right on the money here. There are too many similarities between reported spirit, ghost and demon activity and alien encounters for there not to be some connection. Forget their "outer" appearances, these phenomena have the same central agenda. I believe they are most definately beings that exist outside our realm of understanding, not material, not nuts and bolts, but a shadowy force as old as time, that is capable of manifesting itself in our physical dimension.

Look at ONLY the facts, forget everything you've heard, every movie you've watched. Forget the new age crap about them being here to guide our evolution or whatever... They are NOT who or what they say they are.

I like how you are challenging the accepted and the norm, and I applaud the obvious effort you're putting into this. S&F for sure!

[edit on 27-5-2009 by mostlyspoons]

I have been on a short hiatus, but would like some fresh ideas or schools of thought concerning this topic. Many new people join ATS every day.. so if you are tired of the "same old ..same old".. do a little research of your own on this aspect of the UFO enigma. I encourage all "believers/skeptics" to join together for a common goal.

I truly believe that it represents several of the above mentioned theories. To re-cap.. I do not believe that it is a matter of do UFO's exist.. there is just to much evidence that supports something anomalous is in our skies.. the real question we should be trying to answer as a group is "what are they?"

Originally posted by Alter-Ego
To re-cap.. I do not believe that it is a matter of do UFO's exist.. there is just to much evidence that supports something anomalous is in our skies.. the real question we should be trying to answer as a group is "what are they?"

The difficulty may be that there are an almost endless number of possibilities of what UFO's might be.

If it turns out that we live in an endless see of infinite possibilities where everything that can happen has happened, is happening and will happen, all at the same 'time', across overlapping multiverses, and all that jazz, then the answer to what - out of all of the almost endless number of explanations - is happening, might be: EVERYTHING!

If the the question is "Is is answer this, this, this, this or this?"

The true answer may be "Yes!"



Another way to put may be that to look for "an answer" is a "classical" response, whereas the truth may be "quantum", and cannot be encompassed in "classical" terms, if you get my drift?

"The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao", etc. The truth may not make for interesting discussion.

Further, we may discover that the explanation is whatever we decide it is, because the observer affects what is observed by the act of observing. In which case, we may never 'discover' the truth of anything, but inadvertently determine it.

[edit on 24-10-2009 by Malcram]

look...it's very simple, people don't believe because they have been fooled in the past. that's why the scientific method is used...to establish credibility. the sometimes disasterous results that have beleagured people who have trusted other people to tell them the truth, is the driving force in non-exceptance. the phrase used on this board quite often "the larger the claim, the larger the proof" applies here.
the faith needed for religous belief is the largest example.

Originally posted by Alter-Ego
Unfortunately the vast majority of people who frequent this board are sold on the main stream convoluted "nuts and bolts" platform, and to further the frustrations.

This sounds like Dr Steve Greer talking about consciousness and so forth that is rather very philosophical and subjective, but non the less interesting.

There is also far more evidence to prove that UFO's visiting our planet have left marks of radiation which certain entail a proof that the craft was mechanically operated through an entire journey, do you see where I am getting?

If one was to believe in a UFO phenomena original posted by the OP, than surely one is very likely to believe in the phanomena of demons which if you refer to some Christian ,Islamic and Budhist writtings. It is said that these so called entities are capable of manifesting into physical forms for example orbs that would appear far more technologically advanced than us. For example Christian referred to them as Nephlims or better known as fallen angels, the Muslims refer to them as Jinns.

Now if I was to accept such point of view totally, then the closest yet most reliable source that I'd be inclined to trust is the religious context of books since they have been preserved for such a long time.

But you see this is a very deductively primitive idea that I have troubles grasping it logically.

Originally posted by Alter-Ego
I truly believe that it represents several of the above mentioned theories. To re-cap.. I do not believe that it is a matter of do UFO's exist.. there is just to much evidence that supports something anomalous is in our skies.. the real question we should be trying to answer as a group is "what are they?

We will never be able to answer that question since there is a possibility that UFO's could potentially be of a spiritual form, physical like us or even mechanical form, transformers any one? As great as your idea sounds, I agree but I am afraid such qualitative research would last eminently and in the end we'd have famous books pertaining this subjective matter sorted into a philosophical book section. Therefore bring on the truth, there is only a minority that truly believe in the true UFO saga yet majority who claim they believe are probably just curious and nothing more, who else would not be curious since we are confined to this little despicable world we live in.

Originally posted by krystalice


We will never be able to answer that question since there is a possibility that UFO's could potentially be of a spiritual form, physical like us or even mechanical form, transformers any one? As great as your idea sounds, I agree but I am afraid such qualitative research would last eminently and in the end we'd have famous books pertaining this subjective matter sorted into a philosophical book section. Therefore bring on the truth, there is only a minority that truly believe in the true UFO saga yet majority who claim they believe are probably just curious and nothing more, who else would not be curious since we are confined to this little despicable world we live in.

Thank you for your thoughts and while I tend to agree with you, if we adopted this approach .."We will never be able to answer that question since there is a possibility that UFO's could potentially be of a spiritual form".. we might as well not even be here discussing this subject.

Truth be told.. we may not ever "know" or figure out just what the UFO phenom represents or is. Keeping that in mind I believe it is human nature to try and gain understanding or complete enlightenment on a given subject. Everyone loves a great mystery... this represents one of the best. It reaches as farther back than recorded human history.. and is sure to be around far far into the future...the question is, will we have a solid level of understanding now... or ever? I think Jeff summed it up best:


"I feel that they are an external force, but not so separated from us. They are as far away as distant galaxies and closer then we dared think, or for that matter, closer then we'd probably be comfortable with."