Scientology trial due in France

Speaking as someone who has benefitted greatly from auditing I'd like to say that it is a pity that such a helpful technique is in the hands of the Church of Scientology.

I'll give an example of how they manage to get money out of people.

I started out with 'book one' auditing which was very beneficial (and reasonably priced), but time consuming because it was conducted without the the use of the e-meter.

I was then offered an expensive course of auditing with an e-meter and because I was gaining so much from book-one auditing, I agreed to the new course.

I can't remember how much it was now, but it was several times more expensive per hour than book one auditing. After a few sessions it was suggested to me that there was a way to make this e-meter auditing cheaper.

If I bought another couple of courses I could add my original payment to the new sum of money and the cost would be spread out over the whole set of courses so each individual session ((even those I'd already had)) would work out cheaper.

I agreed to it because I was a) starting to feel a lot better in myself and wanted to continue and b) I was worried about the cost of each session and was relieved to find a way to 'save money'.

All would have been well but my auditor went away and no replacement was offered. I had a big fight to get what I had paid for.

They use some very nasty techniques to get themselves off the hook in this sort of situation, including accusing me of demanding a full refund when all I asked for was the outstanding balance of my money if they couldn't provide me with an auditor.

Another method was getting me to agree that I had received some benefits from the auditing - which I had. Then asking me why there was a problem since I had benefitted so much. Well, it would be obvious to anyone else. I wanted the rest of the benefits due to me as I had PAID for them in advance.

Another nasty experience - I was being 'interviewed' by some big-shot and was putting forward my complaints. He told me that I was like a holiday-maker who had booked into a 5 star hotel and then complained about the weather. Wrong! I was like a holiday-maker who had paid for a 5 star hotel and who was then expected to put up with a garden shed.

He used a technique on me that I couldn't quite accept had happened. I was in the middle of a long complaint when I suddenly shut up. Just like that - stopped talking. That happened to me another time too when I was arguing my case with someone else.

I felt too stupid to take this up with anyone because I thought I was being paranoid or 'making it up'. I've since found out that it is indeed one of their techniques. It's called Tone 40 or Level 40 and is some sort of silent command.

I know there's some controversy over the benefits or otherwise of auditing, but it worked very well for me, even with all the problems I came up against in dealing with the Church.

I'm not an inadequate person - far from it, I'm very capable and practical, but I did suffer from severe depression. Since I received auditing I've never, ever been depressed again. It makes me so sad that there are techniques available that could help people, but they are being overlooked because Scientology has got such a bad reputation.

reply to post by foxhoundone


A lot has happened since the days of the Templars, but that's not to say they still don't have their fingers in certain pies...

The French Revolution (1789–1799) was a period of political and social upheaval and radical change in the history of France, during which the French governmental structure, previously an absolute monarchy with feudal privileges for the aristocracy and Catholic clergy, underwent radical change to forms based on Enlightenment principles of citizenship and inalienable rights. These changes were accompanied by violent turmoil which included the trial and execution of the king, vast bloodshed and repression during the Reign of Terror, and warfare involving every other major European power. Subsequent events that can be traced to the Revolution include the Napoleonic Wars, two separate restorations of the monarchy, and two additional revolutions as modern France took shape.

en.wikipedia.org...

Liberty, Egality, Fraternity ... Vive la France

The Statue of Liberty (French: Statue de la Liberté), officially titled Liberty Enlightening the World (French: La liberté éclairant le monde), is a monument that was presented to the United States of America by the people of France in 1886 to celebrate its centennial. Standing on Liberty Island in New York Harbor, it welcomes visitors, immigrants, and returning Americans traveling by ship.
dedicated on October 28, 1886, commemorates the centennial of the signing of the United States Declaration of Independence and was given to the United States by France to represent the friendship between the two countries established during the American Revolution.
The classical appearance (Roman stola, sandals, facial expression) derives from Libertas, ancient Rome's goddess of freedom from slavery, oppression, and tyranny. Her raised right foot is on the move. This symbol of Liberty and Freedom is not standing still or at attention in the harbor, it is moving forward, as her left foot tramples broken shackles at her feet, in symbolism of the United States' wish to be free from oppression and tyranny.

en.wikipedia.org...

I hope that answers your question with warmth and colour

I detest Scientology as much as I do the British Nationalist Party both offend me, but we have to hang on to the little bit of democracy we have left. We cannot allow government to tell us what we can and cannot believe in.
My government banned Gert Wilders and Michael Savage from entering the UK, censorship by the back door.

In a democracy nobody has the right not to be offended.

reply to post by berenike


And for those who don't know what auditing is,
www.lrh-books.com...

You'll also find tone 40 there too, but just to help...

TONE 40 1: a positive postulate with no counter-thought--expected, anticipated or anything else; that is, total control. The name Tone 40 comes from the top position of the Tone Scale, which is Serenity of Beingness. From: London Congress on Dissemination & Help 2: a reference to auditing that uses Tone 40, the highest tone level on the Tone Scale, Serenity of Beingness. At Tone 40 one gives a command and just knows that it will be executed despite any contrary appearances. In other words Tone 40 is positive postulating. From: Clearing Congress 3: positive direction with total intention, considerations, start, change and stop. Tone 40 is defined in the lecture of 4 July 1957, "Definition of Control" in this lecture series. From: Freedom Congress 4: the highest point on the Tone Scale. Tone 40 means one is handling something in present time, directly and with intention without reservation. From: London Congress on Nuclear Radiation, Control and Health, London Clearing Congress

Originally posted by Elemensa
As much as i like many hate Scientology with a passion, if this cult is able to be banned whats to stop the PTB outlawing other cults such as christianty and islam. The ramifications of this one action could determine the slaughter of the freedoms we at ATS value so dearly.

Because these other cults don't force you into paying large amounts of money using the same methods that Scientology does.

APPLES AND ORANGES PEOPLE!


Nuance is lost on 98% of humans.

Originally posted by dizzylizzy
I detest Scientology as much as I do the British Nationalist Party both offend me, but we have to hang on to the little bit of democracy we have left. We cannot allow government to tell us what we can and cannot believe in.
My government banned Gert Wilders and Michael Savage from entering the UK, censorship by the back door.

In a democracy nobody has the right not to be offended.

Yes but we can allow gov to outlaw the methods used to extract money from believers or in this case people who don't even BELIEVE FOR CHRISTS SAKE!


APPLES AND ORANGES PEOPLE!

Can you spell nuance?

reply to post by berenike


It is indeed sad that a process which helped you is being promulgated by a group hell bent on power and control.


Too bad eh? Self righteousness will get ya everytime! Eventually maybe humans will learn....

[edit on 25-5-2009 by HunkaHunka]

A bit of talk in this thread about freedom and democracy isn't there?

Well, scientology isn't a real religion and a long standing history can't back it up with a belief system that embraces any kind of god so a democratic "stomp" is in order and as for freedom...do people also not have the right to be free of parasitic meglomaniacs more than freedom for scientologists to "work"?

I think the "ologists" will lose this one and being as it's a french system they're dealing with...all those fancy lawyers they can afford (with other peoples money) will be up against one on the most bureaucratic systems in the world.

Living in this system sometimes has it's democratic advantages. (I hope).

The french aren't that gullible and don't take "merde".

Edit- Opps didnt see your thread their Nerbot (that'll teach me not to read the bottom of the last page... but yeah what he said

Originally posted by Elemensa
reply to post by secretagent woooman

 

By all means i agree , my query is what will happen when a goverment outlaws one religion? Surely if this is succesfull any religion/cult that is thought to be dangerous to society will be shut down..

Im just worried about the freedoms of humanity.

The thing is Scientology isnt a religion heck i wouldnt even assign it cult status. How a people can still follow it when the founder of it according to his own family members admitted it was basically a fraud to see how many people he could fool... unfortunately it took on a life and greed of its own. Throw in egomaniacs like Tom Cruise and John Travolta who've basically gotten to the point where they believe their own verbal rubbish is gold plated and its unfortunately dug in for good.

Given the examples ive seen of how rabidly defensive its members can be they either know its a load of poop and just cant face the fact theyve spent thousands on it or their so brainwashed they snap at any sort of critical analysis about it.

Its groups like them that give other religions a bad light, sure other religions have their issues what dont, but that group of idiots give absolutely nothing back or to their own members.

A Fool and his Money are easily parted. Id personally leave the group alone to act as a honey trap for certain kinds of idiots.


[edit on 25-5-2009 by BigfootNZ]

Another link... www.independent.co.uk...

Scientologists in France go on trial for fraud
By Thierry Leveque
Monday, 25 May 2009
The Church of Scientology in France went on trial today on charges of organised fraud.

Gee, let's see. Who does me more damage, Scientologists or the US government?

On one hand, President Obama and Nancy Pelosi steal about 35 cents of every dollar I earn (I'm self-employed), and give me virtually nothing in return for it. Basically, this means I spend over 1/3 of each year (almost 800 hours) working as forced labor for the benefit of some political megalomaniacs like Pelosi and Obama. Who themselves have never worked an honest day in their lives.

On the other hand, Scientologists..........well, um........actually, they have no effect on me personally. As a matter of full disclosure, I did pay to see "Mission Impossible 2", but Tom Cruise did not, in any way, provide any undue pressure to make me do so.

I'm a committed, rational atheist. But frankly, I feel a whole lot more comfortable around Scientologists, Mormons, Jews, Evangelical Christians, Catholics, etc., than I do around socialists, progressives, greens or democrats. The various religious institutions can only ask for my donations; the political institutions represented by Pelosi and Obama take my money at the point of a gun.

Best Regards,
Riff_Raff

Originally posted by Elemensa
As much as i like many hate Scientology with a passion, if this cult is able to be banned whats to stop the PTB outlawing other cults such as christianty and islam. The ramifications of this one action could determine the slaughter of the freedoms we at ATS value so dearly.

We can only pray and hope. Don't be so melodramatic with that last line. It is good to get rid of con men who take everything that people have and in return promise them salvation or getting "clear". Besides Scientology kills.

By all means define a religion. While I truly think that scientology is NOT a religion more than a cult I can't help but think of this. Truly define religion then let's all jump on the wagon.

reply to post by Elemensa


Scientology is NOT a religion!! Please remember always that L Ron was a FAILED screenwriter who pushed some hokey BS onto some simpleminded fools who in turn spewed forth this amalgom of garbage on an unsuspecting public! Hiding behind the guise of "religion" does not make a bad idea any better!

Originally posted by Elemensa
reply to post by InfaRedMan

 

lol good point my friend. But the point still stands that its dangerous to allow a goverment entitiy to decided what we practise in our life be it a religion or anything else.

[edit on 26-5-2009 by gimme_some_truth]

Way to go guys. It is always good to see how open-minded everyone on here is when it comes to religious freedom and scientology.

A bigot is a person who is intolerant of or takes offense to the opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own.

And i know most of you think you are self proclaimed experts on scientology because you read some info on some anti-scientology web page. The fact is anyone can at anytime request ALL of their money back for services they have paid for. and they will be repaid quickly. Athiests don't like the chruch because it is a religion, and most other religions do not like it because it does not have anything to do with their bibles.
What has the church of scientology done to you guys to make you hate it so much? Is it people spending their money on somthing they want piss you guys off, do you wish you could "throw away" money like that?
People just like to talk online about the church like this because it is meme right now to hate the church. If anyone here was talking about how much they hate black people or jews the mods would be all over this, but sadly it's is okay.

[edit on 26-5-2009 by The Mack]

Originally posted by Gaspode
reply to post by Kaytagg

 

Most religions don’t require you to pay ridiculous amounts of money to "advance" or "be more spiritual" - unlike Scientology. With scientology the more you pay, the more you "advance".

Yes, most religions welcome money, but you don't need to pay a certain amount of money before you can read certain parts of the Bible or the Koran.

Perhaps you have never hear of the term "indulgences" that the Catholic church sells.... It boils down to you can buy time off of your sentence in purgatory buy buying overpriced little knick-knacks and candles from the church..

I am sick to death of this group and I seriously hope that France wins this case against them.

It will be a benchmark in which the rest of the world can afford some protection against cults such as this.

As much as i like many hate Scientology with a passion,

Scientology is a very dangerous cult. People who join them are very weak minded and insecure.

You are obviously all warm hearted open-minded individuals. you should all spend some time here and take some time to consider how your posts are viewed by others.


oh
noez
sooooooooooooooo
dangerous!!!!!!

Indeed, in many indigenous religions there is little belief structure, and some Eastern religions such as Zen Buddhism and Hindu Bhakti view doctrine as ancillary and even a hindrance to spiritual advancement. Moreover, how could anyone deny the religiosity of Theravada Buddhism and Jainism, which have no Supreme Being, when both predate Christianity by five centuries? What of the many Hindu sects which, while recognizing numerous gods, clearly subordinate them to the ultimate goal—union of the “Self” with the “Absolute”? And what of Taoism, which cannot be defined but only “discerned,” or Confucianism, where character is the goal and wisdom the path to attaining it?
Modern religious scholars now agree that the test for religion must be objective and cannot be based on concepts drawn from any one particular tradition. Use of a definition that is biased toward a particular religious tradition is certain to discriminate among religions, and has indeed resulted in varying levels of religious persecution. Rather, experts have broadened their view to achieve what Professor Bryan Wilson, Reader Emeritus in Sociology, Oxford University, calls “ethically neutral definitions” consisting of “elements [which] came to be recognized as constituting religion, regardless of the substance of the beliefs, the nature of the actual practices, or the formal status of the functionaries in their service.” In this way a religion’s beliefs and practices can be interpreted fairly and without bias.

[edit on 26-5-2009 by The Mack]

I'm surprised to see suggestions here that the government is interfering with our right to hold our own beliefs.

No-one is being ordered to stop believing anything. Scientologists can still believe aliens crawled into the brains of humans during a long boring movie if that's what they want to believe.
If I've got that wrong perhaps some scientologist here would like to clarify the exact belief. I'm sure we'd all be interested.

Scientologists can even keep believing writings such as this by their cult's founder:

The Science of Survival, Book I, Chapter 27, page 157

"The reasonable man quite ordinarily overlooks the fact that people from 2.0 down have no traffic with reason and cannot be reasoned with as one would reason with a 3.0. There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the tone scale, neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the tone scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes (reeducation, isolation, or relocation).

The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow. Adders are safe bedmates compared to people on the lower bands of the tone scale.

Believing in this crap is no more illegal than is believing you should molest little babies. You can legally believe whatever you like. But when these beliefs cause you to break the law, you have to expect to be treated like any other lawbreaker, and Scientology can expect to be treated like any other lawbreaking organisation.

Originally posted by The Mack
The fact is anyone can at anytime request ALL of their money back for services they have paid for. and they will be repaid quickly.
[edit on 26-5-2009 by The Mack]

You've made some very good points in your posts, which I appreciate BUT would you be able to tell me what I should have done to get my money back?

I only asked for the money I hadn't yet spent due to the unavailability of an auditor and was blocked at every turn. I even got sent to the ethics officer on several occasions and was asked to read some references in the books - all to make me feel as if I was at fault.

I got the distinct impression that the people I was dealing with were deliberately mis-understanding me.

This isn't a complaint against the ordinary people who were trying to learn and improve themselves through Scientology - just the people in charge.

Since I am making this second post I will add that I am fed-up of reading terms like: delusional, fools or idiots in relation to people who practice Scientology.

I am none of those things and nor were the majority of the people I met at the Org. They are just an ordinary mix of people with similar goals to everyone else who wants to develop and improve themselves. They just have a different way of getting there.