Freemasons - Another child fingerprinting scam/fair

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

We're not saying we know better. How did you surmise this? We saw a societal problem (missing/lost children), thought of a way to help with recovery, and created a problem. It would not have last this long if people didn't want it.

I didn't realize we had to use technology/techniques exclusive to us? Nor did I realize that techniques created/made/discovered by others were exclusively used by them? What is the purpose of that statement. The ceremonies are just a part of Freemasonry, not the entire thing. We are still a philanthropic organization. And CHIP products don't always take a DNA swab. In Idaho we put together a flier about how to make a home-made DNA sample and give it to the parent along with their packet of information.

Yeah, we're the condescending ones. [/sarc] The attitude shown to us by theorists like you is appalling.

Well, you keep using your second hand information and telling lies, I'm living a good life, doing good work, and striving to always better myself.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by KSigMason]

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Saying "conspiracy theorists like you" is an ad-hominem attack.

So you're allowed to attack us, but when we point out that you are a conspiracy theorist, it's an attack?

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Exactly, so where do they get the authority to tell you and me that a CHIP is the best way to recover lost children?

We never said it was the best way. Who ever said that? It's just one method of recovery that is out there for the parents to utilize.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Look up the word "speculative" and come back

Speculative:

–adjective
1. pertaining to, of the nature of, or characterized by speculation, contemplation, conjecture, or abstract reasoning: a speculative approach.
2. theoretical, rather than practical: speculative conclusions.
3. given to speculation, as persons, the mind, etc.

So what? Speculative = philosophical

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Saying "conspiracy theorists like you" is an ad-hominem attack.

Rubbish. Grow some skin, dude. It's not even an attack. Those straws you're clutching at are slim indeed.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Exactly, so where do they get the authority to tell you and me that a CHIP is the best way to recover lost children?

What authority are they exercising? None. Who's saying it's the best way to recover lost children? No one.

It's just a free service that they provide which, apparently, you have a problem with. Says more about your small-minded grudge against Freemasonry than anything else.

We have been advising parents since 1993 NOT to let anyone put private information of their children on any computer. At worst the information will surface as child porn as it did in Virginia. re: arrested head of Mason's ID program in Virginia.
wydailyarchives.com...

In the least it could surface with a Life Insurance salesman calling to sell the parents life insurance after promising that ALL information was deleted from the computer.

For many years the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children strongly advised parents not to give your children's information to any database. In recent years, tech firms have partnered with (help to support) the National Center and they no longer warn parents of the risks on data bases.

The head of the Virginia FreeMasons child ID program was recently sentenced to 7 years in prison for distributing child porn. www.tidewaterreview.com...

reply to post by arn58

This was one disgusting man. I don't know what system they use, but ours deletes all data and we are incapable of storing any information.

For many years the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children strongly advised parents not to give your children's information to any database.

I do believe that MasoniChip is endorsed by this center.

reply to post by arn58


While this guy is bad news, how did he use the identification pictures for porn? The article just said he was in charge of that program.

Originally posted by arn58
For many years the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children strongly advised parents not to give your children's information to any database.

Which is fine since none of the collected information goes into a database, it remains only with the parents or guardians.

As for the guy in your link I hope he ends up in prison for the rest of his life. Child pervs are the worst.

reply to post by arn58


What would be the point of making an account on ATS, post this, then disappear?
Since the article says nothing of how the man obtained the material, and knowing that none of the information from the child ID program is kept on the computer, I can only assume you don't know how the process works and just wanted to spread un-needed fear.

Please bring anything you have to explain this situation if you think this is more it appears.

reply to post by network dude


Here is a quote from Amy MacPherson of the Canadian Huffington Post in an article regarding the FreeMasons ID program and the collection of DNA. "There is no way to guarantee what happens behind closed doors and although they claim to delete sensitive information (the Canadian website states "No information is ever stored by the MasoniChIP program"), any computer savvy person knows that clicking an "x" isn't permanent unless you format the entire system." www.huffingtonpost.ca...

I do know that many parents are duped by a rather large insurance Co who claims to delete all child ID information from its computer and then make a sales call to sell insurance at the "childs" house.

As I stated previously, the National Center for Lost & Missing Children strongly advised parents for years NOT to put any private information into a database. They now have relaxed that stand as tech firms are supporting the Center with donations.

No, we do not have all the information from the Court records regarding the child porn case but I do know that the man was sentenced to 7 years in prison in a plea arrangement and thus we may never know the full facts.

The best advice we still offer is that parents beware of any program that stores any information into a computer.

reply to post by arn58

All the data entered on the programa is temporary and is immediately deleted by the program. The only data kept by the Masons is part of the release form with the parents signature on it which is a CYA policy.

The National Center for Lost & Missing Children also works with MasoniChip International.

reply to post by arn58


Thank you for replying. Although it would take some work to retrieve the data, of course it can be done. But it would be a harmless picture, as the parents are always present during the interview. In the end it comes down to trust, and the guy who was put in that position broke that trust. I can definitely see the point you make.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by arn58

 

All the data entered on the programa is temporary and is immediately deleted by the program. The only data kept by the Masons is part of the release form with the parents signature on it which is a CYA policy.

The National Center for Lost & Missing Children also works with MasoniChip International.

Yours is the 20th comment about deleting the info after it is provided to the parents but parents can only TRUST you guys on your word, nothing else. Don´t take it personal but i do not believe you and would not take part in such a program.

Luckily i live in Europe and we are not (yet) asked by any organization to provide our children´s personal information. We have AmberAlert here but we also probably have just a little bit more common sense than people over there (judging by the vast numbers of parents all across America who participate in your programs) .. because let´s say i got your package and my child goes missing one day. I call the police and they ask for information and issue an AmberAlert. The only thing useable in your package is the photograph which most parents already have on their phone or computer. Until (if) my child is found there is no use for DNA samples, hair samples, dental info or anything else from your package.

If god forbid my child is found dead all the information from the package can be obtained from other sources, it just takes a bit longer. So the only positive thing about the package is that parents will find out their child is dead a little bit sooner than without the package. What does that say about your program?

Thanks but no thanks.

Originally posted by Exitt
We have AmberAlert here but we also probably have just a little bit more common sense than people over there (judging by the vast numbers of parents all across America who participate in your programs) .

That's what I love most about you Europeans, your modesty.

Originally posted by network dude

That's what I love most about you Europeans, your modesty.

I know, I know
But just the fact there exists no such program in Germany, Sweden or let´s say Brazil or Japan
is extremely telling ya know. I´m sorry dude.

reply to post by Exitt


Do you know why masons took up this cause? To help. There was a need for this and someone had to step up to the plate and supply the cost and manpower.

I had my kids go though this years ago. they were very young, but the got ID cards, and all their recent info was in one pace. I know, you can get all that yourself. But if your child is missing and the cops come to gather up whatever info you have, are you going to be calm and collected so you can just flip through all your papers and gather up what's needed, or are you going to be a nervous wreck and fumble with everything you touch.

The masons could just as easily do nothing and keep the money and time they spend on this. But since there are enough people out there who aren't afraid of everything, there is still a genuine need and want for this program.

And just as you have the right not to participate (actually you cannot since it's not even offered in your country) the people here also have that choice.

As I said, the guy who got arrested and charged for child porn screwed up no only for him, but for everyone involved in this program. And I empathize with the trust that was lost here, but I still believe that the program itself is out there for a good reason and it's intentions are not nefarious.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Exitt

 

Do you know why masons took up this cause? To help.

I wouldn´t want you to think i am bashing masons so let´s pretend just for a second it was the Red Cross organization providing these programs and doing it just to help people as you say.

As stated in my previous comment the package is completely useless in case of a missing child. I have provided you with rational and logical arguments that if a child ever goes missing the only useful thing in that package is the photograph which most parents already have on hand. All of the other information about your child comes in handy after the police find a dead body.

So, the Red Cross organization provides you with a package, specifically wanting to help you with a Amber Alert-missing child scenario but the package is not really helping, is it?

Which in turn makes me doubt the whole ´helping´ story and i would like to find out if the information gathering is needed for some other scenario´s since we´ve already established that it is not really needed if your child is missing.

When do you really need that information who needs it and why..that´s what i´m wondering.

Originally posted by Exitt
I have provided you with rational and logical arguments that if a child ever goes missing the only useful thing in that package is the photograph which most parents already have on hand.

Actually:

[in]a test in Las Vegas in 2002...scent dogs were given a month old, dried [bite mark] wafer. The dogs were still able to locate the individual hiding in a paint closet on the basement floor of an eight-story building, all within 10 minutes.

Source

All of the other information about your child comes in handy after the police find a dead body.

Even assuming this is true (which we shouldn't given the above), that has value in itself, for closure and for the end of unnecessary expenditure in the search.

reply to post by Exitt


OK, your child goes missing. Been gone for 24 hours. The police ask you for anything you have that may help the investigation. What do you give them. And remember, time is very important. the clock is ticking.

edit to add:
I am not arguing just because I am a mason either, I happen to think this program is a good idea as a parent, and the fact that it's free to the family is also important. And my kids thought it was cool that they had their own ID like dad's drivers licence.

reply to post by Exitt

It's also a volunteer program so they don't have to come to us, we are providing a free service for parents, but no one is forced to do such a thing. Plus, I've let parents sit there and watch how we operate.

Honestly, I don't care that you don't believe me. Taking part in our program doesn't show a lack of common sense, that's just pointless rhetoric that your spewing out there.

I call the police and they ask for information and issue an AmberAlert. The only thing useable in your package is the photograph which most parents already have on their phone or computer.

Incorrect. Most programs use a CD that works directly with the Amber Alert system so it can immediately upload all information. It's a free program and if parents want they can come each year to have the information updated. The system I run in my state takes video/voice recording, photo ID, fingerprints, and biometric data (height, weight, eye color, etc). We also hand out pamphlets to give pointers to help prevent children or dependents going missing.

Until (if) my child is found there is no use for DNA samples, hair samples, dental info or anything else from your package.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

If god forbid my child is found dead all the information from the package can be obtained from other sources, it just takes a bit longer.

Having worked with Search and Rescue Units, I can tell you time is of the essence. Taking a bit longer could end up with a dead child. Thank you for your lazy indifference.

What does that say about your program?

That we're at least trying. What do you do to help?

reply to post by Exitt

No its not.

reply to post by Exitt

Our program does help and MasoniChip provides data about the difference we have made.

reply to post by network dude


reply to post by KSigMason


Ok.
So tell me how many missing children have been found or helped thanks to your CHIP program?