Guru Dialogues III (Ego, Schizophrenia, Enlightenment)

Originally posted by blujay
This comes at an interesting time for me. Since my spiritual awakening a bit over a year ago, many strange things have taken place, I'm sure most here can relate.

Recently, however, I find myself clutching my bag of stones as the water rises .. my fear of letting go is only because I have to stay 'sane' in order to survive in society.

I sometimes imagine and meditate on letting go of the bag, and it is wonderful, but ending up in the loony bin is where that will get you.

Tough conundrum, really. Great post, too!

edit to add that I feel like I am attempting to live in two different worlds at the same time.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by blujay]

Hi...fear of the loony bin is a very comon thing...I've had it many times. But when we realize that what we call "insanity" and "sanity" are both though-based states, concepts, ideas, unrealities, we see more clearly that there is nothing to be afraid of. Really, what you fear is only yourself, your true nature, which is nothing other than an infinite expanse of love. You are not unkind, or evil, or devious, or a killer, or anything which can be pointed to only by categorizing the world and carving it up into individual thoughts. You are much much more than that. As long as you are not buying into more thought, you are moving towards what is, and there is nothing to fear in that.

[edit on 19-5-2009 by Silenceisall]

Originally posted by mr-lizard
I don't trust anyone who calls themself a guru.

To claim enlightenment and then have the hypocrisy to claim that we are all the same and that only the weak minded creat division is what troubles me.

For the so called 'enlightened being' has already created division between the enlightened and the former.

I don't trust anyone who claims to be enlightened, because just who decided who or what enlightenment really is? On what scale can we truly measure or consciousness, or subconsciousness and our ego?

If one man sitting around offering free advice is more enlightened than the man who risks his life on a daily basis rescuing children from burning homes, then i'm afraid i just don't buy it.

To claim that we are all the same, removes individuality and creates a kind of 'void', and that is exactly what is happening to western society.
We are becoming drones, because we are applying eastern philosophy to a western culture and as such the results are unpredictable.

In regards to schizophrenia, for a so called Guru to say that 'all schizophrenics' just need to stop fearing their own madness and accept, is very easy for them to say, but believe me, schizophrenia is seriously bewildering (not just for the sufferer) but for those who surround the sufferer (friends and family)....

If a certain type of medicine can help someone who suffers from schizophrenia overcome their living nightmare then surely that is not a bad thing?

Great thread though and some interesting angles here.

Hi...this is an excellent post...I'm glad you made it. My unfortunate use of the word Guru should probably be revisited. I do not claim enlightenment nor guru status, and anyone who does should be looked on with a proper amount of caution. Realization is a humbling experience not a self-aggrandizing one. Anyone who tells you that they have answers which you yourself do not have access to does not know what they are talking about. Anyone who sets themselves up as in any way superior to you has not realized. There is an egotistical side to spiritual awakening that all must be aware of. The ego reasserts itself in a position of spiritual dominaance or superiority over others, and this is more dangerous than an unawakend individual could ever be.

...and of course...sitting under a tree, or being up on a stage, or having followers, or not having followers, or not sitting under a tree, and all of that has nothing to do with what I am trying to point to.

As for the void, which you seem to be comparing to a kind of conceptual emptiness, nihilism, etc, this is not the nothingness I am pointing to. The nothingness I am taking about is only nothing in so far as the mind is not able to grasp it. The source of true kindness, generosity, love, etc, is that very nothingness. However, when "good" works are only the result of wanting to "get into heaven," or to be "well regarded," or to atone for "sins", etc, then the source is the ego and mind: fear, competition, greed. These undo the good deed before it is even made.

Thanks for your important post.



[edit on 19-5-2009 by Silenceisall]

reply to post by Silenceisall


First of all, there is a link of schizo-type personality and a tendency for fantastical thinking or a pre-occupation with the super-natural. There are a large number of schizo-type personalities in the general population and this does not infer mental illness.
Second to that, schizophrenia is a real illness, it is becoming quite clear that there are many links to certain specific proteins missing in a large portion of those suffering from schizophrenia, this news will aid in tailoring and specifying regimes of treatment and medication types as well as improve early diagnosis or risk whilst also setting more defined concepts of the term schizophrenia, which covers broad symptoms and presentations of illness. So when you simply say that "Schizophrenia" is linked to spirituality, you are in-fact casting a very large net that involves complex cases that differ greatly from individual to individual.
Thirdly, I often hear people criticising the medications that treat schizophrenia, sadly this is because the medications only treat the symptoms and do not cure the disease itself. Unfortunately that is currently the best we can do.

I enjoyed the OP but I think it is important to note, that Spirituality or practices of such will not cure Schizophrenia. The fact that schizophrenia has such a disastrous effect on perception, the senses, inspiring false beliefs, paranoia, hallucinations of a visual and audio nature make it almost impossible for some individual to carry out the kind of sincere self introspection you speculate a schizophrenic would need to do to over come the hurdles you seem to believe are linked spiritually. The topics are linked IMHO, but this is linked due to the abstract and fantastical matter involved but to suggest causation is purely speculation. Speculation is fine, but to promote this as a possible cure is dangerous.

Schizophrenia is not a gift.
It is a severe and debilitating mental illness that robs people of reality, their lives, their loved ones. In many cases people lose themselves entirely. The medications prescribed are not to inhibit people but to enable them. They are not to damage but to help salvage some semblance of life without the prison of psychosis. They are not a spiritual barrier but an aid to regain that which is taken, the very person inside that once was. Unfortunately, we just don't know enough to do this without having negative side effects. But we are still trying, working, researching and breaking new ground.
Spirituality, as far as I know, has broken no new ground ever, when we look at schizophrenia. As blunt as this is in relation to the OP, it is the truth.
Remember, spirituality is a fundamental and intrinsic essence of ones self, with illness such as schizophrenia, that concept of the self, the way it is perceived, the way it reacts to all outside stimuli, is effected, distorted, sometimes falsely manufactured. Try asking a person trying to come to grips with all this, to consider their self and ego whilst contemplating any infinite"ness" or concept is beyond imagining.

On a cultural note, many cultures believe that there is a link. I know many nurses from other countries that have expressed a personal beliefs of a similar nature. But when we just don't know, are we filling in the gaps?

[edit on 19-5-2009 by atlasastro]

Originally posted by atlasastro
reply to post by Silenceisall

 

First of all, there is a link of schizo-type personality and a tendency for fantastical thinking or a pre-occupation with the super-natural. There are a large number of schizo-type personalities in the general population and this does not infer mental illness.
Second to that, schizophrenia is a real illness, it is becoming quite clear that there are many links to certain specific proteins missing in a large portion of those suffering from schizophrenia, this news will aid in tailoring and specifying regimes of treatment and medication types as well as improve early diagnosis or risk whilst also setting more defined concepts of the term schizophrenia, which covers broad symptoms and presentations of illness. So when you simply say that "Schizophrenia" is linked to spirituality, you are in-fact casting a very large net that involves complex cases that differ greatly from individual to individual.
Thirdly, I often hear people criticising the medications that treat schizophrenia, sadly this is because the medications only treat the symptoms and do not cure the disease itself. Unfortunately that is currently the best we can do.

I enjoyed the OP but I think it is important to note, that Spirituality or practices of such will not cure Schizophrenia. The fact that schizophrenia has such a disastrous effect on perception, the senses, inspiring false beliefs, paranoia, hallucinations of a visual and audio nature make it almost impossible for some individual to carry out the kind of sincere self introspection you speculate a schizophrenic would need to do to over come the hurdles you seem to believe are linked spiritually. The topics are linked IMHO, but this is linked due to the abstract and fantastical matter involved but to suggest causation is purely speculation. Speculation is fine, but to promote this as a possible cure is dangerous.

Schizophrenia is not a gift.
It is a severe and debilitating mental illness that robs people of reality, their lives, their loved ones. In many cases people lose themselves entirely. The medications prescribed are not to inhibit people but to enable them. They are not to damage but to help salvage some semblance of life without the prison of psychosis. They are not a spiritual barrier but an aid to regain that which is taken, the very person inside that once was. Unfortunately, we just don't know enough to do this without having negative side effects. But we are still trying, working, researching and breaking new ground.
Spirituality, as far as I know, has broken no new ground ever, when we look at schizophrenia. As blunt as this is in relation to the OP, it is the truth.
Remember, spirituality is a fundamental and intrinsic essence of ones self, with illness such as schizophrenia, that concept of the self, the way it is perceived, the way it reacts to all outside stimuli, is effected, distorted, sometimes falsely manufactured. Try asking a person trying to come to grips with all this, to consider their self and ego whilst contemplating any infinite"ness" or concept is beyond imagining.

On a cultural note, many cultures believe that there is a link. I know many nurses from other countries that have expressed a personal beliefs of a similar nature. But when we just don't know, are we filling in the gaps?

[edit on 19-5-2009 by atlasastro]

Hi...yes, it's important to be aware of the difficulty and terror that those with schizophrenia experience and not to diminish it, or to imply that they are somehow less than because they have not realized that they are not their thoughts, and that the universe bears no fundamental realitionship to their thoughts. To say that a direct realization of one's true nature will stop the fear that schizophrenia inspires, is not to say that it is easy for schizophrenics to have that realization.

I am not talking about easy or hard, possible or impossible...only what is. The problem is that the moment of realization comes when the mind can be seen for what it is, and it may well be that the speed and fluidity of the schizophrenics mind makes this more challenging...but I would say that the realization remains open to all because it is what we are. I have seen people literally pull themsleves out of schizophrenia with the realization that all thought is illusory. For whatever reason, I have been surrounded by schizophrenics all my life, it has been a kind of theme--firends, family, and I have seen that this is possible.

Medication...very tough. Yes schizophrenics can live somewhat normal lives on meds, but you still see it in their eyes. The infinite expanse and the boggled thoughts, the confusion, is still very much there. They do nothing but make those who consider themselves normal feel safe, while taking the edge off the halucinations that schizophrenics experience. As such you may say they serve a purpose. I feel the only purpose they serve is to maintain a semblance of sanity for the sake of society and the comfort of the individual and their families. Is this wrong? No. Is this right? No. Is there another way...let's find out.




[edit on 19-5-2009 by Silenceisall]

Regarding Spirituality and Schizophrenia and how they are tied together:

When I went nuts and had a forced 3 day stay at motel looney bin they gave me drugs and within 24 hours "most" of my psychosis was gone, but it took awhile to really get rid of the voices and endless connecting of dots.

Anyhoo, after 24 hours I wanted to go home, but knew I had to "prove my sanity" to be released. I was trying really hard to pay attention to what the doctors wanted to hear me say. Thought I was giving them but alas, was still not released.

Then finally, it all hit me at once in a group meeting. We were all asked "What are your thoughts today?"

When it came to my turn, I said "I realize that I am the Master of My Own Destiny."

The Counselor leading the group had a big grin on his face and said "Good answer!"

I was let out and picked up by my family a couple hours later.

Now that was a bit over a year ago. I say that to myself all the time, but that realization in itself messes with me and interferes with my life. If I am the Master of My Own Destiny, why do I still make these horrible things happen in my life???

That is what bothers me the most. Why do I feel I can't be happy and secure? Instead I apparently "make" things happen in life to make me the opposite?

Oh, and I don't think that I can ever stop "connecting the dots", I just know now when I start to take it too far. Don't want a forced vacation again. When I think too much now, I jump on my Harley and feel the wind. It helps tons to ground me a bit.

Originally posted by wclv13
Regarding Spirituality and Schizophrenia and how they are tied together:

When I went nuts and had a forced 3 day stay at motel looney bin they gave me drugs and within 24 hours "most" of my psychosis was gone, but it took awhile to really get rid of the voices and endless connecting of dots.

Anyhoo, after 24 hours I wanted to go home, but knew I had to "prove my sanity" to be released. I was trying really hard to pay attention to what the doctors wanted to hear me say. Thought I was giving them but alas, was still not released.

Then finally, it all hit me at once in a group meeting. We were all asked "What are your thoughts today?"

When it came to my turn, I said "I realize that I am the Master of My Own Destiny."

The Counselor leading the group had a big grin on his face and said "Good answer!"

I was let out and picked up by my family a couple hours later.

Now that was a bit over a year ago. I say that to myself all the time, but that realization in itself messes with me and interferes with my life. If I am the Master of My Own Destiny, why do I still make these horrible things happen in my life???

That is what bothers me the most. Why do I feel I can't be happy and secure? Instead I apparently "make" things happen in life to make me the opposite?

Oh, and I don't think that I can ever stop "connecting the dots", I just know now when I start to take it too far. Don't want a forced vacation again. When I think too much now, I jump on my Harley and feel the wind. It helps tons to ground me a bit.

Thanks for your reply. Connecting the dots as a compulsive behaviour is indeed an important aspect of the schizophrenic's experience. The search for the real, the underlying essence. The problem is that this cannot be found by stringing concepts together with cause and effect strings (connecting the dots). You have a looking glass onto the infinite nature of existence. Why you have it, I don't know. But connecting the dots through infinity, where meaning is maleable, where everything is possible, where everything bleeds into everything else, is a futile and dangerous pursuit. Perhaps look at why you do this compulsively (yes we can point to neurological influences), but there is a reason you feel you must do this. I would say that you have glimpsed something very profound, the ultimate thing, and yet you do not realize yet that that ultimatel reality cannot be held and manipulated by thought. All you can do is stand in it, be present with it, and know that your mind cannot touch it. When you know this in your very core, it is the deepest realization you can have. Then the mind no longer has an engine to drive it.

I myself still have thoughts like the ones you describe all the time, and there are still moments when I get carried away by them. But the time it takes me to realize that I have been carried away by them is less than it has ever been. To be carried away by a thought requires your active participation, and there is a feeling of "making an effort" that you can actually sense. With enought time, this feeling to trying to think your way into infinity, of making an effort, may itself become an alarm that wakes you up and out of it.

You are indeed the master of your universe, but don't get wrapped up in the concept of mastery, or you, or universe. Know only that you are in control

[edit on 19-5-2009 by Silenceisall]

That is the most helpful thing anyone has ever said to me!

I am at a loss for words to describe how this has made me more calm.

You helped me quite a bit. Thank you.

This is why I come to this site, to find something to focus on other then the endless question/answer/question/answer fight in my mind.

Long ago, a friend told me to "just be", never understood it, but think I might be starting to get it now.

Originally posted by wclv13
That is the most helpful thing anyone has ever said to me!

I am at a loss for words to describe how this has made me more calm.

You helped me quite a bit. Thank you.

This is why I come to this site, to find something to focus on other then the endless question/answer/question/answer fight in my mind.

Long ago, a friend told me to "just be", never understood it, but think I might be starting to get it now.

You're welcome. You already know all of this to your very core.

Originally posted by Silenceisall

Originally posted by RRokkyy
reply to post by Silenceisall

 

Hi...Yes, altough the idea/concept of the levels of awareness that you write about can become a block to realization.

"All belief is a from of limitation."-John Lilly,MD

Realization is IMO mostly a matter of brain function once you have understood the basic concept of Real Meditation which is NoSeeking.
And very few people have the brain function necessary for Enlightenment. In fact almost noone has the brain function to allow for a fully open 4th or Heart Chakra. Most people will never meet someone at the 5th Chakra level.
Enlightened beings are very rare ,perhaps there is only One in the world.

You are the only person I have ever known to post anything true about the spiritual connection to SZ other than myself. No psychiatrist to my knowledge has ever made the connection,not Szaz or any other. The best thing I ever read about it in a psychiatric text was that the only way to make a diagnosis was by INTUITION.

I have known 2 other people with SZ who were cured by Radical Understanding. Also there is a person with a web blog called SKYBLUECURE who tells about his cure through psychotherapy with whats sounds like a very spiritual therapist.

Do you think you can cure anyone?

Originally posted by Silenceisall

Originally posted by mr-lizard

The source of true kindness, generosity, love, etc, is that very nothingness. However, when "good" works are only the result of wanting to "get into heaven," or to be "well regarded," or to atone for "sins", etc, then the source is the ego and mind: fear, competition, greed. These undo the good deed before it is even made.

Thanks for your important post.

[edit on 19-5-2009 by Silenceisall]

Thankyou for your reply, and may i say that above quote of yours is so very, very true. If only our religious and political leaders could think like that, then the world would be a better place.

I do like the concept of thinking from the heart, as the heart can hold no fear, whereas the mind is the source and root of all our earthly (and 'after-lifely' fears)

.



[edit on 19-5-2009 by mr-lizard]

My reply is the bottom half of the above post. I don't know why it looks like i've quoted myself .

reply to post by jackieps1975

I've had a couple of bouts of ah... psychotic experiences, and was hospitalized twice, no make that three times total (between 1996 and 2005)

I used to be a type of modern day prophet, and I suppose once a prophet always a prophet, but over time, the ego begins to dissolve, and you learn not to take yourself too seriously. I've courted the idea of becoming a stand up spiritual comedian, as I've found that boldy sharing the experience makes people laugh out loud. I think most people have courted insanity, but opt in the final analysis, for a more mundane "normal" outlook on things, you know, make money, spend time with friends, meet a girl, get laid, buy stuff, enjoy the moment, don't think too much.

But I wouldn't trade my "episodes" for anything. I remember every moment of it, and have done much studying since, to make sense of what I was experiencing and attempting to express.

One great truth or revelation I had, among many was this. The very hardest thing for a human being to do really well, is nothing.

It all started for me, after a deep reading and grokking of three books, The Road Less Travelled, A New Psychology of Love and Spiritual Growth by M. Scott Peck MD and The Dancing Wu Li Masters by Gary Zukov, along with another book by Zukov I forget the title now. When I'd digested these works, and let go, and got present to the power of grace, I went up, up up, and at one point considered myself "cured", even enlightened, and there was some evidence of power - but what goes up must come down as they say.

The problem involved having a profound spiritual experience with the ego attempting to lay claim to it, and to forge a system or a spiritual cosmology out of it, with me as the central character in a global transformation! (see, it IS funny!)

Now look at me - still at it with a monicur like "OmegaPoint"! oh dear..

But who's to say that I am not the OmegaPoint of a Global Transformation..? Someone has to be it, might as well be me!

[edit on 20-5-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to post by Silenceisall

This is brilliant btw, very very insightful and well presented. I will eagerly watch for your contributions from now on. You "get it". You understand something about the compulsion that drives a person to madness, which I think is curiosity, but for the schitzophrenic, it's distored by ego based fears and a host of accompanying neurosis which take on a life all their own. It all begins with a false assumption that absolute meaning must be assigned, to everything, with all things having a direct causal relationship. And in seeking this at all cost, reality itself will do some pretty tricky things to avoid getting wrestled to the ground and pinned down. It's not always the byproduct of a delusional mind. I've witnessed certain things happen, which actually happened and were not mere psychosis, though you probably wouldn't believe me if I told you.
Carl Jung knew a lot about the underlying precursors to this phenomenon.



[edit on 20-5-2009 by OmegaPoint]

"reality itself will do some pretty tricky things to avoid getting wrestled to the ground and pinned down. It's not always the byproduct of a delusional mind."

Absolutely!

That is what pushed me over the edge I firmly believe.

My life has always been, for lack of a better word, strange. But the couple years before my episode and especially the weeks before it I felt that I had finally "figured out" why my life has been the way it was/is. Because of this I felt like I was on top of the world! But like you said, what comes up must come down......

Within hours even more strange, inexplicably strange, things started happening. Reality was dissolving right before my eyes and being replaced by some really really scary stuff both audibly and visually.

Things I felt that even in my twisted mind I couldn't have come up with. Not one thing about it was positive, all highly negative. To sum it up I had to escape it, and the only way I thought I could stop the madness was to kill myself. I didn't want to die, and definetly SHOULD have with what I did, just didn't see any other way. Very glad by sheer luck or "something unknown" I made it out alive.

Thus, the stint to the looney bin.

Was not diagnosed with Schizophrenia, just Psychosis and a term I don't remember now but had something to do with not being able to adapt socially.

Only took the pills they gave me at the hospital. They worked in getting me out of that psychosis, but I knew I would never need them again. I learned alot by going thru that. Like you said, would not take the experience back.

Originally posted by RRokkyy

Originally posted by Silenceisall

Originally posted by RRokkyy
reply to post by Silenceisall

 

Hi...Yes, altough the idea/concept of the levels of awareness that you write about can become a block to realization.

"All belief is a from of limitation."-John Lilly,MD

Realization is IMO mostly a matter of brain function once you have understood the basic concept of Real Meditation which is NoSeeking.
And very few people have the brain function necessary for Enlightenment. In fact almost noone has the brain function to allow for a fully open 4th or Heart Chakra. Most people will never meet someone at the 5th Chakra level.
Enlightened beings are very rare ,perhaps there is only One in the world.

You are the only person I have ever known to post anything true about the spiritual connection to SZ other than myself. No psychiatrist to my knowledge has ever made the connection,not Szaz or any other. The best thing I ever read about it in a psychiatric text was that the only way to make a diagnosis was by INTUITION.

I have known 2 other people with SZ who were cured by Radical Understanding. Also there is a person with a web blog called SKYBLUECURE who tells about his cure through psychotherapy with whats sounds like a very spiritual therapist.

Do you think you can cure anyone?

Hi...I like the quote you began your reply with, although you then go on to advance beliefs about enlightenment. By saying that only a few or perhaps one person can attain full awakening (whatever that is), I think you are creating just the kind of beliefs that pose barriers to awakening. The mind is always doing this, and it does not matter what it turns its attention to. It is a concept machine, even when it is looking deep into a void. Even then it will find ways to structure that void, to create something that means something to it. This is futile, of course. My view is that all talk of chakras, auras, levels of awareness (while they may point to something that can be experienced) are limitations to awakening. Best to drop all concepts, all ideas of a path, of only certain people being predisposed to awakening, all of that stuff.

I think the link between spirituality (or reality) and mental illness is becoming more clear. A fully awakened teacher may stand the best chance of helping to push a schizophrenic towards self-realization. There are more and more of them around. This bodes well for the "mentally ill."

Thanks for your post

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Hi...when you wrote "reality itself will do some pretty tricky things to avoid getting wrestled to the ground and pinned down" I said a loud internal YES. That is it in a nutshell. Its like trying to wrap your arms around a wave in the ocean.

[edit on 20-5-2009 by Silenceisall]

schizophrenic tells the truth , humans tells anything but the truth.

Humans can only lie. Because he is conditioned to lie.

reply to post by nonthought


Hi...I'm not sure I understand. Can you rephrase?

OP,
This Guru/Student dialogue is right on the money. I myself have experienced the reality of what is said here.

If you hold on to the stones, you drown in schizophrenia.

If you let go of the stones, you are free, egoless, spiritually reborn. Only thing is, there no longer is a "you" who is free, egoless, reborn.

Yes you do swim, but then what is realized is that everything is one, without separation, "you" are no different than a chair, an ant, oxygen, water, dust, etc.

I suppose the schizo's are merely born into this oneness realization and don't know how to deal with it. Others gradually slip into this since the veil of ego is already tread thin from birth

reply to post by dominicus



Very nice summary.

You wrote:
"If you let go of the stones, you are free, egoless, spiritually reborn. Only thing is, there no longer is a "you" who is free, egoless, reborn. "

This is the spiritual catch 22. Although it is only a catch 22 from the ego's point of view.




[edit on 25-5-2009 by Silenceisall]