Jesus get's props from the Whitehouse! Amen?

reply to post by OldThinker


I have played "crazy golf" or "mini golf" if that's the same?


Peace anyway my friend.

No hard feelings....we all get heated in these debates.
It's all good.


We'll meet again I'm sure

reply to post by OldThinker



Originally posted by moocowman
Are you implying this verse is not relevant ?

Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

no did I say so???

It's what you implied by claiming it should not be taken at face value.

Corse its relavant!!!!!

Which part is relevant if it's not to be taken at face value ?

Just one of many on the subject....

Like this one ?

John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Are you also saying that the above verse should not be taken at face value ? If so, who exactly, told you that it should not be taken at face value ?

If so then we then according to your logic we should NOT take this at face value then ------

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

Any scholar looks at THE WHOLE BODY of work....

So when jesus spoke, he was only speaking to scholars ? Incredible OT please enlighten this thread as to when exactly, did jesus stipulate that the illiterate Jews he was speaking to should not heed his words without getting themselves a degree ?

Equally so, when jesus was ministering to the illiterate and uneducated, what "Body of work" should they have been looking at exactly , so as to interpreate what he was saying to them ?

Anything less is weak, dis-connected in reality....more of a distraction than anything....

Anything less than what exactly OT?

You are saying that, --
when GOD said to ignorant illiterate jews "Let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone" and they took what he said at face value and did not go off and study a nonexistent body of work in order to interpret what "Let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone" actually means.

These jews that god was speaking to "in person " were not the people that god should have been speaking to because they had no chance of understanding what he actually meant ?


OT, would you really stand in front of jesus and say something like " Well I really thought you didn't mean what you were actually saying dude " OR " Well I was too arrogant to think you had a simple message for "ALL" people to understand.

Or is it more likely it would be " Sorry jesus I had no faith that what someone wrote you said was true, so I tried to get everyone to do it my way" ?

C'mon OT you can do better ? Well to be honest I don't think you can OT I get the impression that your complete lack of understanding and belief of jesus and what he was teaching "SIMPLE PEOPLE" forces you to constantly set yourself up as some sort of keeper of the great wisdom.

You do not hold the keys to a great secret OT, your vanity is incandescent you imply that when jesus spoke to the poor he was throwing diamonds to pigs.

Perhaps you could learn something from what I try to teach my kids OT. If you don't know the answer be humble enough to say I don't know as we cannot know everything. Should we invent our own answer then the truth will always come along and make us look really ignorant and foolish.

reply to post by moocowman


moo...


deep breath ok?

I told you 2 yrs ago....I give you honor for the ways you love your kids,,,,


JC was teaching the disciples...in 31-ish AD about the power of prayer for them....THEM!

Hermanuetics 101....


ever notice the miracles the Apostles did....I guess it worked....


I take from the direct statement to a certain group of people...then...as an application to me, now...BUILD faith...WHEN YOU PRAYER...is that ok my man?

I can give you multiple answers to my prayers...in your arrogance, you discount? see...

The LORD Jesus Christ is my best friend…

I’ve talked with him every day……..for over 35 yrs......am I delusional?

I believe…

Ever smile, every laugh, every victory…comes from above. (from Him)

You know that feeling of relaxation you get just before going to sleep after a great day? A day full of successes…a day that the world, at least around you, recognized your ability?

That comes from above…

Or that joy you feel with your kids running and laughing in the yard, playing in the sprinkler? Or that business deal that just came through? Or that beautiful purple and orange sunset last night?

Or the hype felt after scoring the winning goal or touchdown? Or that majestic mountain range you looked over in the past?

That comes from above…

About 2000 years ago, a colleague of Jesus named James said,

“Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.”

You, too. can know HIM…

Thoughts?

OT

and this on BTS...

An ATS member just lost a loved one…

An ATS member just lost a loved one…

“Where, Oh death, is thy victory? Where, Oh death, is thy sting?" I Cor 15:55

Good question…

NOT HERE!!!!!!!

OT just found out 10 minutes ago…

That I have lost my best uncle!!!!!

He died tonight, after a long illness…

H e leaves a wife, children, grand children…and great grand children. Nieces, nephews and…

Many many friends from work!

You may think this odd…WE REJOICE!!!! He is with the Lord Jesus…where there is no time…he stepped out of time into ETERNITY!

OT knows you, too, will experience this…

We discuss, argue…at times over many issues…

BUT NO ONE…No ONE…says the wished they spent more time at work, or on ATS….on their deathbed!

When your time comes to experience this…I encourage you…to turn to Jesus-He is a friend that sticks closer than a brother!

The Apostle Paul says…for me to live is Christ, but TO DIE IS GAIN!!!!

OT Sad…but trusting in the Lord with all my heart, leaning not on my own understanding…

In all my ways, acknowledging Him…

And He will lead me straight!!! Proverbs 3:5,6

PS: We all speak confidently during good times…but it all could be done in a second…

Please take time to reflect…

PSS: Thanks to Kid Rock for this…

ATS-ers, listen to the words during the last part of the song…ok? music.aol.com...


Here’s are the words to the last part of 'Amen!'

“… It's a matter of salvation from them patience up above,
So don't give up so damn easy on the one you love, one you love
Somewhere you got a brother, sister, friend, grandmother, niece or nephew
Just dying to be with you
You know there's someone out there who unconditionally, religiously, loves you
So just hold on 'cause you know it's true
And if you can take the pain
And you can withstand anything, and one day
Stand hand in hand with the truth

I said amen, I said amen
I said amen, I said amen…”

mooo, ru ready ready to judge and deny this?


there s more to life than winning an arguement...agree?

Originally posted by blupblup
reply to post by OldThinker

 

I have played "crazy golf" or "mini golf" if that's the same?

Peace anyway my friend.

No hard feelings....we all get heated in these debates.
It's all good.


We'll meet again I'm sure

me too, fun....


nah, its an arcade game...GOLDEN TEE....google it...what a riot!!!!

OT ready for CAVS to make it 8-0!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by moocowman

Just one of many on the subject....

that you forgot to respond to, right?

OT love the WHOLE COUNSEL...

Thank you, OT, for seeing that I'm not attacking anything here but the idea that a christian government would be a bad idea.

You have faith, and I am very glad for you.

Now....

Are you really denying EVIL? And its source?
Are you telling me that you have proof of the source? I mean proof, not something once written down at an abbey somewhere. So all negative influence is the result of this angel fellow?

Evil and any other name you might use for negative influences is not just a christian thing. The devil/satan is.
You said that those arguing against christian influence were working for the devil.
Are you suggesting that we are being evil?
Am I considered EVIL for denying the existence of a deity?
Shouldn't there be a law against me being like that?

Christianity seems to claim everything for its own, even when logic would prove otherwise. It's not the only way, it's a way of doing things.
Compelling others to live based on your 'notions' is offensive.
Let's say I firmly believe that everyone should wear a flower pot on their head at all times. Plus, I read an old book that says I'm right.
Would you appreciate my getting that passed into law? Or would you think it ridiculous? Chances are, it would be the latter. Why, then, can you not entertain that there are people who don't want to live based on a book that 's been edited numerous times based on the 'politics' of whomever could afford the edit. It's as ridiculous to us, as wearing a flower pot would be to you.

As for your myriad quotations of people stating they like the ten commandments, great. Good research.
Yep, ten commandments all over the place (at public expense, ahem).
Still only two of them are law. So eight of them are pure decoration.

If Jefferson etc. thought the ten commandments were the epitome of law, they should have found a way to enact them. They didn't. Why?
If the people of America all agreed that the bible is right in every aspect, why did they opt for secular government? They had their chance.
I think "coveting" is the national past-time, so that one obviously doesn't get passed into law.
Idols? Well, Elvis didn't help there.

The other thing I don't really follow is why the first bit - 'I am the one true god. You will have no others.....' seems to hint that there's a point to be made. Are there other gods? Why would you be so so emphatic unless there were. What's up with them? Oh, right, he's a jealous god.
Jealousy. Kind of like coveting, no?

The Bible, which you would refer to as 'the word of god', is so inconsistent and sometimes contradictory that it would not stand up to modern criticism were it to suddenly appear on a bookshelf.
It certainly would not be used for passing law.

Originally posted by Badgered1
The Bible, which you would refer to as 'the word of god', is so inconsistent and sometimes contradictory that it would not stand up to modern criticism were it to suddenly appear on a bookshelf.
It certainly would not be used for passing law.

B, thx for recognizing my research...sweet!

Very intellectually pure you are!!!!

I'mwatchin the CAVS game for the night....gotta go for now...ok?

Here's some insight on me, as to why I believe...

see: www.abovetopsecret.com...


more here:

“Jesus was a liar!!!!!”

That really is a logical option…please read on…

First of all, the longer I live the more I realize I don't know. Life is a bit more complicated than I thought it would be when I was in my 20/30's. I am a Christian, by that I mean I have chosen to believe that I am imperfect and needed His intervention.

I have come to this conclusion primarily upon LOGIC, not faith. Faith is one of those enigma's in today's vocabulary that has lost its meaning or has been interpreted differently by so many. My journey to this conclusion has a few factors that I will share with the forum/thread.



Point 1 ---- Again before I go on I will try and be LOGIC-based and not bring in a bunch of Christian-eze mumbo jumbo.

Remember Back to the Future and the Delorian (sp?) Imagine if you were Micheal J Fox and someone asked you to go to five (only 5) different time zones/geographical areas and meet one person in each time zone/area and ask them, "please write a book about God, I'll be back in 5 years to collect it."

Five years later you went and picked up the five books. Logically speaking what are the chances those five books would agree? What are the chances those five books would build upon one another? What are the chances you could make any semblance out of them...to live by or the like? Snowballs in your know where, right?

Different people! Different cultures! Difference Time frames! Different Premises! Different World view! etc...

Logically speaking you would have five unconnected books with five different perspectives, right?

Well, the Bible (torah, prophets, gospels, epistles, revelation) are not 5 books by five authors, but 66 books by 40 authors...who did not know one another, did not live in the same town, did not live in the same time line...authors were of every occupation and financial status........yet......the Bible is a one-themed, continuing story.

Doesn't prove it God's Word yet though...just something that might warrant another look.

Point 2 ---- Here's an undisputable fact (I believe at least after examining) Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God, his followers claimed He claimed to be God...and...non Christian journalist (such as Josephus) claimed He claimed he was God. Doesn't appear here to be different agendas going on. He said it, His followers said He said it, third parties said He said it and even his enemies said He said it (Sanhedrin, Pharisees, etc)

SO...with all that said...we have only two LOGICAL outcomes. No religious double-talk here) Either you BELIEVE or you REJECT. Really no other options right? If you believe, then to you HE IS LORD. If you REJECT there are really only two options for you.

1) JC knew he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LIAR

2) JC didn't know he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LUNATIC.

That's the only three logical outcomes...LIAR, LUNATIC of LORD. There is no room for him being a good guy and all, no room for him being a prophet as every other religion on the face of the earth calls him.

Because prophets don't lie and they are not usually in psych wards.

Point 3 ---- Most direct followers were killed for believing in JC. If they had stole his body and the Romans excused, at least one of them would have squilled just before their execution right? I would have...

but NO-All these ordinary folks were willing to die for what they saw…

You thoughts ATS-ers?

Originally posted by Badgered1
The Bible, which you would refer to as 'the word of god', is so inconsistent and sometimes contradictory that it would not stand up to modern criticism ...

I dunno?

There's alot of those linguistics folks out there that recognise the Bible as God's word...


se... for one here... www.foundationsforfreedom.net...


pls research ok?

more...

Higher Criticism


Higher criticism started in the late 1700s. They appointed themselves to evlauate the contents of the Bible. Unfortunately, as a whole they did not believe the Bible to be true. They based their interpretations on a presupposition that the Bible is not divinely inspired and that a conglomerate of unknown authors and editors assembled and modified the Bible as they desired.

These Higher Criticism studies has been a large waste of time. Their bias against the Bible has so largely shaped their conclusions that their studies are not worthy reading.

For example, many of them would deny a literal Exodus. They think that the Exodus story is merely something the Israelites later created for a national story. They have no basis for their thinking. They know it is not true and therefore interpret the Bible in light of their presuppositions.

Many commentaries (all expensive) spend a large amount of their pages debating such theories. Not many of these supposed 'Bible scholars' really take the Bible for face value.

If you are shaken by their statements, just read between the lines and see what they base their theories on. You will see it is all conjecture and that their beliefs will be adjusted in another ten or twenty years by someone else's theories. It is interesting to read older commentaries and see how ridiculus some of their conclusions are in light of modern discoveries.1

Bottom Line
We can accept the Bible as it presents itself. Noah really existed along with the ark. Moses really did serve in the Egyptian court. There was language back then. Jericho really had walls that fell inward and we have proof that it did.

higher criticism for sure....some LOWER as well...

Lower criticism also developed from an unbelief in the inspired scriptures. They evaluated the Bible just as any other book.

We need to be very careful of the assumptions of those who do these critical studies. Westcott and Hort in the 1800s were scholars indeed, but with a bias. They did not believe in God's authoritative Word.

Many others of the Liberalism persuasion follow their trail and do not believe in the inspiration of the original autographs (see inspiration).

We have spoken of their bias. Is there any value in their methodology then? We think so.

The methodology needs to be separated from their assumptions. They thought that only a few major texts were old and and so based their conclusions on only a few manuscipts. They claimed to be ecletic but in fact were rather prejudiced.

Today we have others who do hold to the veracity of the scriptures and fine-tune the research on determining the original text.

We need to remember that most of the text is not in questin. We are not 'recovering' a lost text. The biblical text is in the majority of cases clear and unquestioned.

Today's studies focus on seeing if we can through research detect which variance was actually the original.

Bottom Line
In fact, the major result of the Lower Critics has produced a better understanding of the reliability of the Biblical texts.
We acknowledge that there are many variants in the thousands of manuscripts, but they are minor and inconsequential to the main meaning of the few passages they influence. These studies stand as proof that the original documents are not far from what we have in today's copies.

same site source...

synopsis, please read EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT (google it) for tight research...ok?

OT

[edit on 11-5-2009 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by Badgered1
The Bible, which you would refer to as 'the word of god', is so inconsistent and sometimes contradictory

????
Have you seen how it ranks up the theother work of the day?

Manuscript Evidence for Ancient Writings Author Written Earliest Copy Time Span # Mss.
Caesar 100-44 B.C. 900 A.D. 1,000 yrs 10

Plato 427-347 B.C. 900 A.D. 1,200 yrs 7

Thucydides 460-400 B.C. 900 A.D. 1,300 yrs 8

Tacitus 100 A.D. 1100 A.D. 1,000 yrs 20

Suetonius 75-160 A.D. 950 A.D. 800 yrs 8

Homer (Iliad) 900 B.C. 400 B.C. 500 yrs 643

New Testament 40-100 A.D. 125 A.D. 25-50 yrs 24,000


24K compared to 643 0r less?????


Where are all the HOMER Skeptics, really?

Isaiah 45:6-7 (King James Version)

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

So, there you have the source of evil.
Or do you disagree?

There's a very cool site here: www.infidels.org...

That lists some interesting other ones.

Especially Nephilim.
That one really does seem to baffle everyone.

"There were giants/Nephilim in those days and after."
Logically, they were on the boat (nope), they were annihilated along with everything else (nope) or god is fallible (only plausible explanation). We already know he is omniscient - although he often loses track of people and needs houses to be marked so he can recognize them....


1TI 6:20, 2TI 2:14-16, 3:1-7 Do not argue with an unbeliever.
2JN 1:10-11 Anyone who even greets an unbeliever shares his wicked work.
CN 4:5-6 Be wise in your behavior with outsiders. Let your talk be with grace, mixed with salt, so that you may be able to give an answer to everyone.
1PE 3:15 Always be ready to answer any man concerning your faith.

reply to post by Badgered1



B, I think the present copy of the Word of God is trustworthy...many skeptics believe that the Bible has been drastically changed over the centuries. In reality, the Bible has been translated into a number of different languages (first Latin, then English and other languages, see History of the Bible). However, the ancient manuscripts (written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek) have been reliably copied over the centuries - with very few alterations.

OT: How do we know the Bible has been kept in tact for over 2,000 years of copying? Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, our earliest Hebrew copy of the Old Testament was the Masoretic text, dating around 800 A.D. The Dead Sea Scrolls date to the time of Jesus and were copied by the Qumran community, a Jewish sect living around the Dead Sea. We also have the Septuagint which is a Greek translation of the Old Testament dating in the second century B.C. When we compare these texts which have an 800-1000 years gap between them we are amazed that 95% of the texts are identical with only minor variations and a few discrepancies.

NT: There are tens of thousands of manuscripts from the New Testament, in part or in whole, dating from the second century A.D. to the late fifteenth century, when the printing press was invented. These manuscripts have been found in Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Turkey, Greece, and Italy, making collusion unlikely. The oldest manuscript, the John Rylands manuscript, has been dated to 125 A.D. and was found in Egypt, some distance from where the New Testament was originally composed in Asia Minor. Many early Christian papyri, discovered in 1935, have been dated to 150 A.D., and include the four gospels. The Papyrus Bodmer II, discovered in 1956, has been dated to 200 A.D., and contains 14 chapters and portions of the last seven chapters of the gospel of John. The Chester Beatty biblical papyri, discovered in 1931, has been dated to 200-250 A.D. and contains the Gospels, Acts, Paul's Epistles, and Revelation. The number of manuscripts is extensive compared to other ancient historical writings, such as Caesar's "Gallic Wars" (10 Greek manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), the "Annals" of Tacitus (2 manuscripts, the earliest 950 years after the original), Livy (20 manuscripts, the earliest 350 years after the original), and Plato (7 manuscripts). see: www.godandscience.org... for more....

OT




[edit on 11-5-2009 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by Badgered1
So, there you have the source of evil.
Or do you disagree?

There's a very cool site here: www.infidels.org...

wooooo...

OT thinks arguing with the most high is a very very dangerous thing...

I want a good life...long, happy etc....

YOU SHALL NOT TEMPT THE MOST HIGH>>>>


pls re-evaluate and think that thru, ok?

OT

Originally posted by Badgered1
Isaiah 45:6-7 (King James Version)

Especially Nephilim.
That one really does seem to baffle everyone.

"

nephilim? Yep awesome...


Loved 300!!!!!!!!!


Just think they were real.....

reply to post by Badgered1




more....: answers.org...

Excerpts below....

How We Got Our Bible
The Bible is a collection of sixty-six books composed under inspiration of the Holy Spirit by many authors over almost 1500 years throughout the Middle East. Authors include adopted Egyptian nobility (Moses), a shepherd (David), a Babylonian official (Daniel), a tax collector (Matthew), a doctor (Luke), a philosopher/rabbi (Paul), and a fisherman (Peter). The Bible includes poetry, history, government records, prophecy, dialogue, parables, sermons, letters, and religious instructions. The Bible is written in three languages, Hebrew (Old Testament), Aramaic (part of Daniel), and Greek (New Testament). Despite this diversity, the Bible has been remarkably preserved, contains no contradictions, and is widely supported by history, archaeology, science, and philosophy.

As the books of the Bible were composed, they were recognized by God's people (first the Jews regarding the Old Testament, then the Christians, who also recognized the New Testament books) as God's Word. The books were tested according to the following principles:[3]


The book must be written by a person of God (e.g., a prophet, an apostle, a trusted associate of an apostle, etc.).
The writer and writings must be confirmed by facts and the acts of God (e.g., Moses said a prophet whose prophecy did not come true was a false prophet -- Deuteronomy 18:18-21, etc.).
The book must come with the power of God. Application produces godly transformation in believers' lives (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:17, etc.).
The book must be accepted by the people of God initially (see Peter call Paul's words "scripture" in 2 Peter 3:15-16) and over time (before the second half of the second century all of the main churches in the Roman empire accepted at least the four gospels, the Acts of the apostles, and Paul's writings as scripture[4]).
At the beginning of the fourth century the Christian churches generally agreed on which books composed the Bible and which books were excluded. This was the earliest time such a question had general significance. Emperor Diocletian Galerius decreed that Christians were to be persecuted and their scriptures burned. It was a matter of life and death to determine which books one would risk martyrdom for. By the end of the fourth century the Bible as we know it was formally recognized by all Christian churches.[5] It is important to note that the church recognized the scriptures, it did not determine or make up scriptures.

For many centuries the texts of the Old and New Testament books were copied by hand on papyrus, parchment, or vellum in scrolls or in codexes (books). Professional copyists, or scribes, were meticulous, skilled workers. Convinced they were copying God's Word, they could not alter it in any way. The remarkable preservation of the original texts is traced by comparing our earliest copies of books or portions of books with those of later centuries. Our oldest copies of Old Testament writings are from before the time of Christ, and our oldest copies of New Testament writings may date to before A.D. 70, contemporary with their composition. In addition, we have citations by other authors, collections of scriptures used in church services, and versions in other languages.

Critics point to the absence of the originals to discount the Bible, but biblical scholars like F. F. Bruce note, "there is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament." Slight variations among copies do not obscure the original, Bruce continues, "the wealth of attestation is such that the true reading is almost bound to be preserved by at least one of the thousands of witnesses."6 And although the copies of the Old Testament are fewer, their unique copying standards "give us ground for greater confidence than might be supposed," confirming "that no serious changes were introduced into the text of the Old Testament" through the centuries.[7]

Does the Bible Tell the Truth?
Most disputes about the truthfulness of the Bible can be grouped into three categories: (1) misunderstandings; (2) ignorance of the facts; (3) dislike of its teachings.

One example of an interpretive Bible problem is the common misunderstanding that "God of the Old Testament" is harshly judgmental while "Jesus of the New Testament" is lovingly forgiving. However, the God of the Bible is consistent from Genesis to Revelation in bringing judgment against unrepentant sin and forgiveness to those who repent.

Ezekiel 18 explains, "Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it. . . . But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. . . . I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. . . . I take no pleasure in the death of anyone . . . Repent and live!" (vv. 25-32).

Jesus makes the same kind of declaration in Matthew 23, pronouncing judgment against the Pharisees, calling them "blind fools," "hypocrites," "sons of hell," "full of hypocrisy and wickedness," "condemned to hell." But his loving desire for them to repent is evident as well: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing" (v. 37).

Interpretive (called hermeneutic in literary terms) problems range from misunderstanding the type of literature in a passage (confusing poetry with historical narrative, for example),through vocabulary, to confusing time and circumstance differences between two events. A good book for further information is Walter C. Kaiser and Moises Silva's An Introduction to Biblical Hermeneutics: A Search for Meaning.[8]

Ignorance of the facts concerning the trustworthiness of the Bible can be embarrassing for critics. For example, for many years doubters disputed the New Testament accounts concerning Pontius Pilate. No hard artifact evidence existed confirming his existence and position, and later extra-biblical historical mention of him and his position was suspected as having been improperly assumed from the Christian scriptures and later creeds. Then, in 1961, archaeologists unearthed an early first century theater inscription at Caesarea Maritima in Israel, dedicated from "Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judea," to "Tiberius Caesar."[9] What the Christians had preserved in scripture and creed had achieved hard artifact verification nearly 2,000 years later.

Finally, some say they distrust the Bible when they really mean they don't like or agree with it. However, the Bible has more supporting its truthfulness than does any critic. The historical and textual evidence of the resurrection of Christ from the dead, for example, would compel anyone who did not already discount the existence of God to accept its reality. When Christ endorses the Bible,[10] the wise man believes the Bible, even if he dislikes it. After the French Revolution, political factions attempted unsuccessfully to construct an alternative to Christianity. One individual complained to the prominent politician Talleyrand, who had been a bishop before he abandoned his faith. Talleyrand's response is telling: "Surely, it cannot be so difficult as you think. . . . The matter is simple: you have only yourself to get crucified, or anyhow put to death, and then at your own time rise from the dead, and you will have no difficulty

B, the Bbile is THE MOST researched book, in the world...EVER...


and its stood the test of time, skeptics, atheists, etc....

There are a lot of stories and they have some good morals to them, but they don't necessarily agree with each other. Sometimes they will absolutely contradict each other.
How does one live one's life according to contradictions?

Unless it's like having a 'get out of jail free' card. You cite the passage that works for what you are doing right now?

Matthew and Mark seemed at odds...

MT 10:10 Do not take sandals (shoes) or staves.
MK 6:8-9 Take sandals (shoes) and staves.

Either way, you win? Or do you lose? Remembering that your god is either a vengeful, spiteful god, or he is love - depending on which part of the book you like.

If they were in court about it, who'd be right? Those with sandals and a staff, or those without?

In this instance we'll assume that the source was sound. So we must assume that the disciples either misheard, misunderstood, or were not paying attention. Someone may have got it right, but which one? After 2000 years it's difficult to check on.

Just a very insignificant point in the story, but incredibly significant if you are offering the story as potentially affecting the laws under which I live.

If the Bible was the law, by not taking sandals and a staff you'd be breaking the law. If you did take sandals and a staff you would also be breaking the law. Not logical, but Biblical.

DT 30:11-20 It is possible to keep the law.
RO 3:20-23 It is not possible to keep the law.

Do you want the law of the land to follow this logic?

reply to post by Badgered1




please see the INTERNAL and EXTERNAL TESTS are passed by the Bible...

The Internal Test - Do The Writers of the Bible Claim Their Writings Are True?
In any document, we are justified in discovering what the writer of that document says about it. For example, this article is part of the web site of Elizabeth Church of Christ. It has been written by someone who is part of the Elizabeth Church of Christ. But this article is not the Word of God, nor does it claim to be. If there were a copyright statement, along the lines of "This article is God's Message to People on Earth", you, the reader, would be entitled to investigate. We can do the same with the Bible.

Many of the writers of the New Testament were eyewitnesses of Jesus. They saw him, knew all about him, and in some cases, were his followers. And they said as much:

The eyewitness to these things has presented an accurate report. He saw it himself, and is telling the truth, so that you also will believe.

From the very first day, we were there, taking it all in - we heard it with our own ears, saw it with our own eyes, verified it with our own hands.

We were there on the holy mountain with Jesus. We heard the voice out of heaven with our very own ears. We couldn't be more sure of what we heard - God's glory, God's voice.

Even when the writers were not eyewitnesses, they showed that their writings were not made up from thin air:

So many others have tried their hand at putting together a story of the wonderful harvest of Scripture and history that took place among us, using reports handed down by the original eyewitnesses who served this Word with their very lives. Since I have investigated all the reports in close detail, starting from the story's beginning, I decided to write it all out.

And since the New Testament was written between AD 47 and AD 95, there was just not enough time for myths and falsehoods about Jesus to grow. There were enough eyewitnesses of Jesus to challenge any historical errors, or blatant lies. Yet no-one did. The Bible passes the internal test.



The External Test - What Does Outside Evidence Say About the Bible?

Because the Bible is a collection of documents written within history, it contains references to history which can be verified by archaeology. It is interesting that before the 20th century, many critics of the Bible discredited it, due to lack of evidence for certain biblical claims. Yet, in the 20th century, archaeology exploded, and all such claims have been reversed. Archaeology has made astonishing finds which provide evidence for the claims of the Bible. Archaeology cannot prove the Bible, but every new find gives more weight to the historical accuracy of the Bible.

Here are just a few examples of the historical reliability of the Bible:

Critics once claimed that the Law of Moses could not have been written by Moses, since writing was largely unknown at that time (about 1500 BC). Then, the Laws of Hammurabi (1700 BC) were found. This showed that writing was definitely known at that time, and left no reason why Moses could not have written the Law of Moses.
For a long time, critics questioned the accuracy of Daniel 5, which mentions a Babylonian King named Belshazzar. Archaeological records show that Nabonidus was king at the time, and do not mention Belshazzar. Yet, in 1956, three stone slabs were found. These slabs showed that while Nabonidus went off to war to fight the Persians, he entrusted the kingdom to his son, Belshazzar.
Many critics have tried to discredit Luke as an accurate historian. So far they have been unsuccessful. A notable example is where Luke says that Lysanius is the Tetrarch of Abilene. Recently, archaeologists found two Greek inscriptions, which show that Lysanius was the Tetrarch of Abilene between 14 and 29 AD.
In the past, people have doubted whether Jesus even existed. Was he a historical person, or a made-up character? In fact, early Greek, Roman and Jewish sources make mention of Jesus. These include Tacitus (Annals), Suetonius (Life of Claudius, Lives of the Caesars), Pliny the Younger (Epistles) and Lucian (On the Death of Peregrine). As well, there is a letter from a Syrian, Mara Bar-Serapion, to his son. In it, he compares the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras and Jesus.
The Bible has no problem meeting the external test.

In fact, when the bibliographic test, the internal test and the external test are applied to the Bible, the Bible emerges as a completely trustworthy book. This is even more amazing considering how many different writers contributed to the Bible. It points to a "common author", God, and shows how God not only gives a message to us, but also takes care to ensure that we can trust that message

more here: www.newchristian.org.uk...


OT out....

reply to post by Badgered1



Concerning the seemingly difference between the OT and NT....remember in the OT he was protecting ONE NATION, to bring about a geneology to protect ALL PEOPLE.....


Could he be percieved as a racist in the OT? Yes, certainly...but it was for mankinds good...


pls see here for more in explaining the evolution of God's dealings with man ok: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Background:

I am a follower of Jesus Christ…for over 35yrs

I am a statistician…by trade

I am a believer in the secular-influenced-Lawrence Kolberg, and his theory of Moral Development…built upon Jean Piaget’s Cognitive Development…both behavior scientists of the mid 1900’s.

To summarize Kolberg…every decision/perspective/rationale and ultimately BEHAVIOR…is a result of the their PRIMARY stages of development…

Here’s an overview…

Stage 1 – Decisions/perspectives….based on REWARD and PUNISHMENT…this is the most basic (immature)…another way to say it…the ‘stick’ (ruler) or the ‘carrot’ (sweats)…or from a religious perspective…..‘heaven’ and ‘hell.’

Stage 2 – Decisions/perspectives…based on EXTERNAL Influences…another way to say it… “RULES.”

And

Stage 3 – Decisions/perspectives…based on INTERNAL Influences…another way to say… “PRINCIPLES.”

Here’s an example to bring it to life…

“A woman was near death from a special kind of cancer. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to produce. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $1,000 which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said: "No, I discovered the drug and I'm going to make money from it." So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man's store to steal the drug for his wife.”

The question to ask…to determine…their (current) stage of development is…

Q - “Should Heinz have broken into the laboratory to steal the drug for his wife? Why or why not?”

A – Stage 1 – “I don’t steal…because I’m afraid of being ‘caught!’

A – Stage 2 – “I don’t steal…because it’s ‘wrong!’

A – Stage 3 – “I don’t steal…because I respect others and their property!” But LIFE is more important…and I’ll pay the price, but a life will be saved!”

Kolberg’s theory is right on, in my book…

His approach, in my mind, is a reflection of the TRUTH documented in the Holy Bible…

Stage 1 – Reward and Punishment – Torah - “...If you eat from this tree, you will surely die…” Genesis 2:16

Stage 2 – Rules - All those old testament commandments…

Stage 3 – Principles – The new testament writers review when the Lord Jesus was asked, “…which is the greatest commandment?” He responded… “…it’s the principle of love…Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind, and your neighbor AS YOURSELF.” Matthew 22:36

“ALL the OT rests on this!” Matthew 22:37

So to bring it home, to answer your poignant questions…I try and surround myself with principle-centered people…people who have worked thru the first two stages but are ‘living’ in the third…

By the way, Kolberg explains, that the transitions from one stage to another…is predominantly achieved through asking…”why?” and that’s what ATS stands for!!!

I’m gonna side with blupblup here. Come right out and say atheist if that’s who you’re addressing OT. It’s not a dirty word. You’re talking belief in an anthropomorphic god not a person with general disbelief.

I’m a secular humanist (atheist if that pleases you but it doesn’t adequately define me) with Christian tendencies and I for one was very disappointed in Obama’s showing on the National Day of Prayer. He fell back on historical quotes for his own response. That doesn’t cut it. His constituents elected him as a devout Christian candidate as that is how he portrayed himself. He doesn’t appease anyone except for the Islamists he has previously bowed to with this private approach. That Chicago church was not a place for quiet contemplation of God’s plan. And so some might think he is either downplaying his Christianity or hiding Islamist leanings. I think he is neither. He is a Marxist and an atheist. Government is his god and so for now he rides the fence. If he were to respond truthfully in these circumstances he would piss off nearly everyone concerned and so he doesn’t show his hand. And for the record BO is merely one in a long line of atheist US presidents. No, not Regan and Carter but they were mere puppets controlled by others (Bush Sr., Zbigniew Brzezinski among others). And that folks is the unspoken truth.

Obama's Religious Ruse

There are evil people that hide behind religion and there are good people that refuse to hide behind religion. The evil pretenders are typically forgiven the undisguised good are scorned or destroyed.

reply to post by OldThinker


JC was teaching the disciples...in 31-ish AD about the power of prayer for them....THEM!


Clearly not OT Jesus says "Anyone"---

NET © I tell you the solemn truth, 1 the person who believes in me will perform 2 the miraculous deeds 3 that I am doing, 4 and will perform 5 greater deeds 6 than these, because I am going to the Father. NIV © biblegateway Joh 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. NASB © biblegateway Joh 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. NLT © biblegateway Joh 14:12 "The truth is, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father

It is clear from the above that, in over 2000 years not one single xtian has actually believed jesus, or he would have accomplished what jesusyahweh god promised. Unless of course you can provide testable evidence to the contrary.

ever notice the miracles the Apostles did....I guess it worked....

Well no actually OT there is no evidence to support such claims.

I take from the direct statement to a certain group of people...then...as an application to me, now...BUILD faith...WHEN YOU PRAYER...is that ok my man?

Well no it's not ok actually my man, jesus yahweh god stipulated ----

Matthew 17:20 : For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

GOD is clearly stating how little faith you actually need we all know how small a mustard seed is dude. There again It's kinda hard to build faith you either believe something or you don't, to imply that the apostles were supposed to be the sole recipients of this message is clearly incorrect.
After all what was the work that the apostles were meant to do ?
Correct my man, spread the message not keep it to themselves, .

I can give you multiple answers to my prayers...in your arrogance, you discount?

You can give me as many answers as you want OT but it remains hearsay and untestable. If you only need faith as a mustard seed, well hey forget moving a mountain why not simply walk into your nearest pediatric hospital and cure a child with leukemia. Come to think of it why don't 2 or more xtians get together and ask jesus to eradicate leukemia altogether ?

Clearly not a single xtian has either asked jesus to do this or don't believe what they read, or perhaps jesus lied.


There are millions of children with amputated limbs, why don't xtians take jesus up on his promise and get their limbs regenerated ?

The truth is, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works

Thats stupid everyone will be praying for different things so it wouldnt work