Rice: When the president approves it, it is not illegal

reply to post by Maxmars


To me the sheep dog analogy has some truth in it; and I find it embarrassing that for the most part people are sheep. Most people including most of my family fall into this category. Now for the sheep dog, well for the most part that is where the analogy falls apart - most cops are, I would like to believe, nice guys/gals but the ones that I know are a PIA. I would defiantly prefer that it was the cops that took things head on, but I know that the cops are there to only clean up and investigate.

I for one have looked at this situation about torture and then looked at myself and asked what I would have done. That is how I have judged it.

You seem to think you are above it.

For the most part I am pissed; angry about where we are and angry at those that put us here. Are you over 50? If you are you are guilty, my father is guilty. Why the hell did you allow this. Why the hell did you idiots vote these people into office, why are you still voting them into office? You sit on your high horse now and make proclamations about how those that have done this should be punished, even forced to prove their innocence (bowing to their level, so how much do your ethics shift?) - yet you put all these idiots with police records into office.

So they don't have your permission to torture... but you give your permission to leave someone in prison for life; you have voted for the pathetic entitlement system that is financial breaking this country; you have allowed the people that are in office to water down your rights by perverting what the constitution says about speech, religion, guns, private property, the power of the federal government; you have allowed all this and sit there and say they didn't do it with your permission. That is hypocritical. Take some responsibility.

We have to be the stupidest people on earth. We have used our freedom to put people into office to take our freedoms away. And we just go along and fall in line like sheep.

The truth is we have bigger problems to deal with then prosecuting the previous administration for war crimes because they tortured/killed a few terrorists. We need to clean the Congress, the White House, the Supreme Court; the entire three branches of government. But who cleans it? And if it is cleaned do we put people like you, the people that allowed this happen, in power? The truth is and the bottom line is: You sir are the problem. We are all part of the problem. We need to start by cleaning our own house.

Originally posted by Intelearthling
We've all got a choice here in the matter.
Waterboard these bastard terrorists; save you childrens' lives.
Use no enhanced interrogation methods; attend your childrens' funeral.
It's clearcut as black and white. There are no areas of grey.

It's pretty easy to see how some people buy into the propaganda campaign and believe the spin that behind every rock there's a terrorist waiting to kill them.

There musn't be much room behind those rocks anymore. With the perverts, paedophiles, rapists, terrorists, crack dealers, beggars, homeless, pimps, prostitutes and muggers all waiting to strike, you wouldn't want to walk out of your own front door.

The only thing that I would fear behind those rocks would be the waiting politicians, councilmen, police, alphabet soup agency goons and other contracted security guards...

[edit on 3-5-2009 by tezzajw]

What is wrong with these idiots is that the American people are too afraid to get together and recall all these people that are acting in a criminal manor and replace them with good men and women. We need to let them know we are serious! The problem is not with the politicians we can get rid of them, until they decide to change that too; the problem is ultimately with the American People and their inability to get together on things!

Originally posted by clcreek
The truth is we have bigger problems to deal with then prosecuting the previous administration for war crimes because they tortured/killed a few terrorists. We need to clean the Congress, the White House, the Supreme Court; the entire three branches of government.

Sorry but I think you missed the target here mate. Cleaning house is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Maybe you are one of those who thinks open rebellion is the only way to make the necessary changes, I personally do not.

Upholding the LAWS of our country and holding those in power who break them responsible is the FIRST and most important step in cleaning up the White House, Congress and the Supreme Court.

When our leaders realize we will not stand by and let them make a mockery of the laws of our nation then things begin to change.

But who cleans it? And if it is cleaned do we put people like you, the people that allowed this happen, in power? The truth is and the bottom line is: You sir are the problem. We are all part of the problem. We need to start by cleaning our own house.

You tell me, your the one preaching that all of us are doing something wrong as you see it, so enlighten us. What do we do? Clean our own house? Really? Because I do a pretty dam good job of maintaining my moral standards, and so does my family. It is MHO that we can bypass the deflection of blame and hold our REPRESENTATIVES accountable.

Originally posted by Animal
Sorry but I think you missed the target here mate. Cleaning house is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Great so we agree, not sure how I missed the target...

Originally posted by Animal
Maybe you are one of those who thinks open rebellion is the only way to make the necessary changes, I personally do not.

Open rebellion means many things. If your talking civil war then no I don't want it nor do I think that it is the only way. If you are talking disobeying laws that are unconstitutional or defending myself and family from oppression, then yes open rebellion is what I advocate.

Originally posted by Animal
When our leaders realize we will not stand by and let them make a mockery of the laws of our nation then things begin to change.

Sure, and if we quit building nuclear weapons everyone else will too. Sure, the crooks in office will quit being crooks if you tell them to. I am sure that all the serial killers out there will stop if we explain to them how wrong it is. Nice wishful think, it is laughable to think a dishonest person will be honest if you tell them. The only way to have a representative be honest and truthfully represent the people is to put an honest person in office.

Originally posted by Animal
You tell me, your the one preaching that all of us are doing something wrong as you see it, so enlighten us. What do we do? Clean our own house? Really? Because I do a pretty dam good job of maintaining my moral standards, and so does my family. It is MHO that we can bypass the deflection of blame and hold our REPRESENTATIVES accountable.

I am glad that you feel that you and yours have high moral standards and that your house is clean. If you haven't noticed it takes a majority vote to put people in office, therefore one can surmise that the majority that voted need some help.

The post was directed at Maxmars and his arrogant statement that the torture was done without his permission. Considering that all of the federal government was pretty much behind the decision to do it, it was in fact his representatives that allowed it - so it was done with his permission. It is really laughable that so many people are trying to take the high road and say they weren't apart of it. And then they get on here and get all pissy about how we need to punish those that did this 'horrible' thing.

The other thing that really ticks me off is that I get to inherit this crap (so thanks baby boomers, you really screwed things up... you had a chance to fix the problems your parents left you - but no, you had to go and make things worse). I wish my generation was really inline to fix things - but I believe that the majority of us are more twisted and selfish then the baby boomers are.

The only way I know to start fixing these problems is to start in my own house...

Originally posted by clcreek


Sure, and if we quit building nuclear weapons everyone else will too. Sure, the crooks in office will quit being crooks if you tell them to. I am sure that all the serial killers out there will stop if we explain to them how wrong it is. Nice wishful think, it is laughable to think a dishonest person will be honest if you tell them. The only way to have a representative be honest and truthfully represent the people is to put an honest person in office.

this contradicts what you said earlier and supports my point.

we obviously can not sit by and let crime go unpunished.

as idealistic as 'cleaning up our own homes first' is (it is a GREAT idea) it fails to uphold our LAWS.

these people HAVE to held responsible for their actions, just like I am held responsible for 'not wearing my seat belt' or driving '90mph in a 75mph zone'.

there are laws for a reason and they are enforced for a reason.

'cleaning up our homes' is a great idea, but it wont change the behavior of those in office now who see our lack of prosecuting officials as a message to 'do what you like i am busy cleaning MY house' ...

and as you said, asking nicely or explaining how it is wrong is not going to do a dam thing.

reply to post by Animal


If your 'contradiction' is with my first post then I think I see your point; but I don't believe it to be contradiction. I personally don't have a problem with the so called 'torture'. Yet I do have a problem with the corruptness of our government. I am grateful the the former administration did everything they could to protect us. The politics that played out between those in charge piss me off and I wish they acted more like a team and more decisively. And I wish they were honest and followed the constitution. I also don't believe that the rights of the constitution apply to non citizens especially those that wish to destroy us.

Originally posted by Animal
we obviously can not sit by and let crime go unpunished

So then you will have the "mafia" prosecute members of the "mafia" for crimes they committed with the "mafia's" permission.

It is laughable that you think it will mean anything to go after the former administration for torturing terrorist or anyone else that fell into their "terrorist" net.

You are completely missing the big picture and you have chosen this narrow little path to vent your frustration. If you really feel that prosecuting the former association will somehow put the fear back in the feds then you are kidding yourself.

If you really think that those that are guilty of allowing and torturing the "terrorists" needs to be brought to justice then, considering that all the feds were involved and can't be party to the investigation or prosecution without recusing themselves (if they are honest), then the 50 states need to set up a new federal government to prosecute the existing federal government. I think we all know this would lead to civil war.

I believe that the current administration is playing us. They are releasing little pieces of info that make the former administration look bad in order to distract you from looking at the big picture.

[edit on 4-5-2009 by clcreek]

[edit on 4-5-2009 by clcreek]