CIA Official: No Proof Harsh Techniques Stopped Terror Attacks

Mod Edit: Keep it Civil. Cheers -alien

[edit on 26-4-2009 by alien]

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
If you consider smacking someone, and pouring water on their head to be torture, then you have obviously lived a very sheltered life indeed.

If you think water boarding to be smacking someone and "pouring water on their head"... then you are far more sheltered than I had imagined any human possible!

Originally posted by johnsky

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
If you consider smacking someone, and pouring water on their head to be torture, then you have obviously lived a very sheltered life indeed.

If you think water boarding to be smacking someone and "pouring water on their head"... then you are far more sheltered than I had imagined any human possible!

He was obviously simplifying it for people here. It's apparent that any use of communication that isn't dumbed down to the level of a 5th grade goes straight over everyones heads.

By the way, have you ever water boarding anyone?

Of course there is no proof that it stopped a terrorist attack. You can not prove a negative. In other words you can not prove whether or not they stopped it unless it actually happens.

Torture is torture, and it only hurts. Torture does not help in anyway shape or form.

"this is America! We do not torture!!!!"

We are supposed to be the greatest country in the world. We are supposed to be the country that sets an example for all other countries. Well no wonder the world is so screwed up. Everyone is following our example!

Originally posted by logician magician

By the way, have you ever water boarding anyone?

I can't really tell you that until you tell me if you've been water-boarded.

Tell me when, and I'll tell you if I did it.




Have I mentioned I love shallow thinking humans?

[edit on 26-4-2009 by johnsky]

Mod Edit - Keep it civil. Cheers-alien

[edit on 26-4-2009 by alien]

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
Of course there is no proof that it stopped a terrorist attack. You can not prove a negative. In other words you can not prove whether or not they stopped it unless it actually happens.

It's not a negative. They apparently knew where and about when the attack was going to (supposed to).. i.e. predicted to happen (like a birthday, or a rape, is predicted to happen)

They could probably prove it if they wanted to, but it's safe to assume that the intelligence reports are classified, the methods are controversial, and the means have to do with national security.

In other words, you can prove a terrorist attack didn't happen because it didn't happen.. as long as you know where it was supposed to happen and an approximate time frame.

Torture is torture, and it only hurts. Torture does not help in anyway shape or form.

Torture helps. It helps big brothers get information out of their little brothers. It helps cops get information from suspects, and it helps governments get information out of terrorists.

We are supposed to be the greatest country in the world. We are supposed to be the country that sets an example for all other countries. Well no wonder the world is so screwed up. Everyone is following our example!

"The greatest country" ?

Sounds like you've been brainwashed.

Originally posted by logician magician

Torture helps. It helps big brothers get information out of their little brothers. It helps cops get information from suspects, and it helps governments get information out of terrorists.

mmm, can't agree. I've subjugated plenty of others to psychological forms of manipulation that could easily be defined as torture in the past... I've never gotten an ounce of honesty from the subjects.

As such I have long since given up on hopes of honesty from torture.

"The greatest country" ?
Sounds like you've been brainwashed.

Now THAT I can agree with.


No sense of greatness can ever be applied to a divisible section of the human race, they are all scum.

[edit on 26-4-2009 by johnsky]

CUE STANDARD MOD SPEECH

Hi People,

I've deleted a few replies in this thread - and issued, as you will see, a few Warns in the process.

While this may well be a subject that is quite provocative for many - please, at all times, remain civil in the discussions.

Theres no need for the sidejabs and attacks.

Also - if anyone takes a shot at you then please alert that reply rather than respond in kind or you will also receive edits/Warns for the same.


Cheers,
ALIEN
ATS SuperModerator

I said this before in the CIA stoppped attack on LA thread.

Just a bunch of lies from the Counter Intel Agency.

"It is the function of the CIA to keep the world unstable, and to propagandize and teach the American people to hate, so we will let the Establishment spend any amount of money on arms."-- John Stockwell, former CIA official and author

Enough said...

Worked for the Spanish inquisition - look there is not a single heretic left - the whole world woke up to the fact it is a ruse - and those that didn't are so moronic they are the perfect muppet.

Leto raises a vital point.

In Kantianism, we have an inbuilt threshold (think of it as moral Darwinism), which draws the line between what is acceptable and what is not. Problem here, is that right/wrong is defined as absolutes - it's wrong to murder, it's okay to torture to protect America, etc. Kant states that this threshold will shift dependent upon the unique situation presented.

An analogy often made is that torture in gitmo is portrayed to be equal to the torture used in the show 24. In reality, the two situations are quite different.

Since, the context of torture is an important factor, any agent using torture must justify it's use. The use thereby of torture to obtain general intelligence and not to counteract a specific and identifiable threat, is wrong.

I would suggest that if CIA agents are solely reliant upon torture to obtain intelligence, then they probably need to get another job.

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen

Torture is NOT "Torture", "whatever way you spin it", as there are in fact lines which we do not cross.

This of course is contrary to reason. I can scarcely retort beyond that. But I think, it may suffice to say, it appears that you believe that the elements of torture can be enumerated and cataloged into a set of 'rules'.

If you consider smacking someone, and pouring water on their head to be torture, then you have obviously lived a very sheltered life indeed.

You must be denying that what constitutes torture is not up to the 'interrogator" it's up to the subject of the experience. Repeated bitch-slapping, referred to as "the anger slap", or suffocation-terror, which is the result of many techniques, including the popular "water boarding", may not be torture to you; but I suggest the experience might make you change your mind. In the end it's about the horror and anguish of the experience, and not whether you can take a beating, or endure pain.

The rationale is similar to 'harassment,' it's not about what you did or didn't intend for the subject to feel that defines it; it's about how the subject was affected by it.

Frankly, why not just 'truth serum them up' prop them on a polygraph, monitor their brainwaves (as is finally reaching the public's attention), and ASK them.

Most people want these people, who we have little knowledge about to begin with, to be punished, a priori. That is not part of justice, it's part of revenge.

I myself have been through tougher aspects of a physical and mental nature, yet you do not hear me running around screaming of agony nor abuse.

Then I suggest you weren't professionally 'tortured.' What did they want you do say, admit, be part of. Was the only way to make it stop to create some guilty concept for them to act on? Were they 'pressed for time?' Did you spend all you time confined enduring no personal freedoms?

Only the weak minded, and those of pathetically degraded fortitude, are complaining about American "Torture", while completely ignoring what occurred eight years ago, and while utterly turning their backs upon the actions of our enemies.

You are absolutely correct! NEVER - EVER forget the atrocity that occurred. But..., there is still some doubt regarding disclosure of those events, so; let's take first things first and determine exactly what happened. Facts seem to indicate that even at it's most basic level, those 'collected' for questioning, had nearly nothing to do with the event. Unless you are aware of some other facts that I am unaware of.

If you and other such individuals care so much about "Torture", then why are none of you out in the streets protesting against the Public Beheadings courtesy of the Taliban?

Because our first civic duty is to ensure our own house is in order; otherwise we would be hypocrites. Besides, our 'representatives' are the only one's empowered to protest authoritatively to a foreign government. Are they not doing that?

Where were you when we began planning the takedown of Saddam, and his Sons, who both reveled and lavished in absolutely barbaric physical abuses and extreme torturous fetishes? What of the Iraqi Insurgents who mutilated, burned, and then proceeded to hang the bodies of American Service Personnel? Need I mention the beheaded Americans at the hands of Al-Qaeda? You complain about our War Effort, yet you fail every single time to acknowledge the pure evil against which we have fought, and do currently fight.

I was serving my country, many were. Not all of us see things as absolutely as you do. I understand your angst, but you don't seem to understand my reservations. Nor do you seem inclined to accept that there are easier, and more importantly more effective ways to make people reveal what they know than by brutalizing them.

You need to seriously work on setting your priorities straight

Indeed. Perhaps we all should.

[edit on 26-4-2009 by Maxmars]

i think it is clear that the US government, under the direction of the bush administration made a conscious decision to draft documents in an attempt to MAKE torture legal.

i also think it is fairly obvious that the bush administration KNEW that it is understood that torture does NOT produce legitimate information, rather it produces faulty information that in the case of the bush administration was exactly what was being sought.

it appears that bush-co was looking to FORGE a connection between al-quida and iraq to justify the invasion (an invasion bush was openly talking about on TV 10 months before the 2000 election).

the torture was being applied to forge phony links between these two 'enemies' to justify the phony rational for attacking iraq.

water boarding is without a doubt torture according to the laws of the usa. do not forget we tried and executed japanese soldiers after WWII for water boarding our troops.

if it was bad enough to execute over back then i see no rational for it being 'less than'' torture today.

while i can completely understand the drive to WANT to torture to protect our nation i am still firmly opposed to it. the usa was once upon a time a beacon of justice n the world. we were this beacon because we did not do things like TORTURE.

it is the exact same line of logic as 'WE DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS' regardless of the costs we may pay....

besides now it appears that dick cheney's claim that torture some how kept us safe turns out to be like so many of the things he said, lies....

reply to post by iamjesusphish


This is becoming old news really fast. ATS members are really wear this issue out.

Everybody that thinks waterboarding is not torture then sign yourself up for the interrogation technique and we'll see if you still think it's OK after you've had it done to you repeatedly, along with all the other stuff(Standing positions,etc,etc.

You guys that support this are saddists.

You are all discussing the guilt of people rgarding something that EVERYONE disagrees on...

What is torture?

Everyone seems fixated on waterboarding. Is that torture?

What about "stress positions?" google "Burmese cross."

What about "sleep depravation?"

What about "Loud noise?"

What about cold rooms?

As a group most of you have decided "US tortured...people must go to jail."

Did ANY of you ask yourself "What is torture?" The decision that we tortured is NOT ANYTHING THAT WOULD PUT A SINGLE PERSON IN PRISON! No court would convct a single person on that statement other then a third world kangaroo court.

Define torture...that is the ONLY arguement for now.