The Real Question. Why do you trust the Holy Bible?

reply to post by KRISKALI777


LOL... struck a nerve did I... good, I am quite sick of the evangelical atheist and zealots so were even.

Because God is all powerful, he has the power to protect his instruction manual to humanity, it really is that simple. Everything else can and will be allowed to be messed with as per Satan's taunts to God(see the Job account), but not the bible that's off limits for Satan.

biblos.com...
www.biblegateway.com...

As to the difference between the God of the OT vs the God of the NT. That is a valid point. But there is an answer.
Jesus ransom sacrifice changed the way God dealt with humanity, Jesus sacrifice gave humanity tremendous leeway for sin and forgiveness. That never existed under the mosaic law.
For example adultery was punishable by death no if's and's or but's. In the 1st century Jesus changed that, now an unrepentant Adultery was not killed but removed from the christian congregation. Incidentally that hasn't changed, those that practice the purest form of Christianity still do this.

reply to post by KRISKALI777

I appreciate that you have different beliefs to my about the bible, but try for a moment to discuss it in a historical/factual sense rather than what you have been frightened into believing.

I wasn't frightened into believing anything.

Anyway If the Christian God is so loving; albeit, Jesus, Yahweh, or Amen (whos name is uttered at the end of most verses) or whoever; isnt the first commandment one of :....I am a JEALOUS god, therefore you may not worship graven images ..Blah,blah.
Point: I dont think Jealously is really becoming of a GOD that is supposedly to have infinite forgiveness/love etc???? Is it????
Please rationalize this one for me!!

Gladly. But first, "Amen" isn't a God. Amen was a term that the Jews used to say that they agreed with something that was said. So, for example, if a Jew said, "Boy I'm glad that we're not allowed to eat pork!" Another could follow it by saying, "Amen!" God does have infinite forgiveness and love. However, there is only one God. He is the creator and deserving of our worship. Nothing else does. Therefore, when we go and worship something else, he has every right to be jealous--just like your spouse has a right to be jealous if you go and start looking at another person's butt.

And remember the Jews rather than let Barabba live, sacrificed Jesus the Christ for the sins of who....Gentiles.

Jesus died for the sins of the world, not just the Genitles nor the Jews.

I find it amazing how individuals will harp-on Jesus this/Mary/that; yet have never even heard of Emperor Constantine, creed of Nicea

What about them? Constantine was the Emperor of Rome who forced everyone to become Christian. He called several ecumentical church councils as well, one of which resulted in the Nicean Creed, which is as follows:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Pretty well sums up my believes if you ask me.

reply to post by octotom


Sorry, but Amen was an Egyptian "God of Creation". usually spelled as Amun, Amon etc; all spellings are english adaptations of ancient languages!
Dont forget where was Moses raised and schooled? Thats right -Egypt. With no Moses and old testament you lot would not even have your Christian religion.
With no Constantine (father of Catholicism), you'd have no definitive version of the new testament- and again therefore; no religion.
When are you going to realize, you have mistaken a proto-jewish esseneic MAN as a God. Being a prophet for the word of God, does not make you the actual God just because a political fraternity (church) says it is so.
I bet Jesus never even actually said he was a God; if you want to believe that: aren't we all the sons and daughters of God???
I'm sure you can conveniently rationalize that!

reply to post by KRISKALI777

Sorry, but Amen was an Egyptian "God of Creation". usually spelled as Amun, Amon etc; all spellings are english adaptations of ancient languages!

That could be but Amen used in the Bible is a term that refers to agreement. It's not used in almost every verse, as you said earlier, either. It's used the most in the Psalms--and in those contexts, it makes no sense that they'd be talking about a false God!

[qupte]With no Constantine (father of Catholicism), you'd have no definitive version of the new testament- and again therefore; no religion.
That's not exactly true. Sure, Constantine did set down all the church leaders and make them "finalize" the NT per se, but, way before that, the whole church was pretty much in agreement about what should be the Christian scriptures. The only questions were about 2 Peter, Jude, Hebrews, and one or two other books. In fact, discussing those four or five books was the main thrust of the Nicean Council.

I bet Jesus never even actually said he was a God; if you want to believe that: aren't we all the sons and daughters of God???

Jesus did call himself God. But, he didn't come right out and say, "I am God!" Doing so wouldn't have done anything and people would've just looked at him the same way we look at people today that say they're God. The way that Jesus said that he was God was by refering to himself as the I AM--YHWH--God's personal name in the Old Testament. In the passage were this occurs, the Jews realized what Jesus was saying, and immediately took up stones to stone Jesus, which was the punishment for blasphemy, which, if Jesus wasn't God, is how he should've been punished. Jesus also accepted worship--something reserved only for God.

This might surprise you, but, no, we are not all children of God. The only children of God are those who are in God's family, which are those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Until we're in God's family, we're actually enemies of God.

Jesus wasn't simply a son of God. He was the Son of God, which was a name given to the Messiah in the Old Testament times.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Because God is all powerful, he has the power to protect his instruction manual to humanity, it really is that simple. Everything else can and will be allowed to be messed with as per Satan's taunts to God(see the Job account), but not the bible that's off limits for Satan.

This cuts to the core of what I want to understand. "he has the power to protect his instruction manual to humanity".

Why of all the religious books in the world do you place such faith in a book who's origins and history that you cannot possibly have any personal knowledge of. Your faith appears to me to be blind. You decided to believe in something.

None of the todays religious books are complete. Most are written stories that were told over decades from person to person and family to family before anyone wrote any of it down. Then, Kings, Popes world leaders changed the text. Removed some books and added others. These are just men. How do we know that Satan did not deceive us all with these changes?

Using the book itself as reference to its truthfulness seems counterintuitive to me if you have not proved its truthful first in another manner. Of course no one is going to write a book that they want people to believe and say oh this may or may not be true. They are going to tell you it is true over and over to get you to believe.

So you chose to believe this book as the word of god because it tells you to and someone else in your life told you to?

Please understand I am trying to understand and not challenge you specifically.

[edit on 19-4-2009 by Xeven]

reply to post by Xeven


Do you think I just accept at face value what religious people tell me, I do not.

They told me hell was real, I researched this and know now it doesn't exist, this is from studying the bible going beyond the English into the Greek and Hebrew.

They told me the Trinity was real, I researched that and found out it was false, and a doctrine imported from paganism.

They told me God created everything in 6 days literal 24 hour periods. Again I researched this and found it to be false. He is not bound to our solar systems time line.

They told me if I was good I would go to heaven, researched that too, and found it to be false. The earth was created for a reason, and Satan didn't change God's purpose for it.

There are lies and then there is the truth or reality, each human should search it out and prove it to themselves, I have.

What has been messed with is what the bible teaches, what God choose not to stop was Satan using his ultimate weapon, that is setting up a false spiritually that sucks in the weak minded and repulses the intelligent because they know it to be a lie. Thus the success atheism.

He wins both ways, with this weapon. It is a brilliant strategy actually, that has worked for thousands of years. Evolution is his most recent and most advanced intellectual weapon to date. But it will be his last.

Originally posted by Xeven

This cuts to the core of what I want to understand.

Xeven, did you miss my earlier post?

OT

Originally posted by Xeven
I would like to know why Christians trust the Holy Bible? If you have read it, you must see that the God in the Old, is not the Same God portrayed by Christ in the New.

I don't consider myself to be a christian, but I know Jesus is 100% telling the truth and the father does speak through him. I don't know Jesus, but I do know the father and Jesus speaks what I learned. So I'll answer.

Also, most of you know that the Bible you call the "True Word of God" today is a book put together, changed and edited by many men, Kings, Popes and who knows who else?

It is not the true word of god. Obviously whoever wrote the bible had to hear the true word of god in order to write it. But it does contain some of the wisdom and understanding of the father.

Why do you trust these men? Why should I believe what they decided (as men) to be in our current Bible is the truth? Were these men inspired by God or unacknowledged messengers of God (King James?)?

I don't, not at all. Those who accept are blind. I don't even consider half the NT to be valid. I reject Paul and his writings in general. Where as Jesus repeats all that I learned from the father in a very deep way, Paul does everything I was told not to do(and Jesus says it as well).

I do believe in god I just no longer trust the Bible having grown wiser and learned truths of its origins so I am interested why you trust what your told by Men (Preacher, Pastors, Parents etc...) to be the truth of what god is and what god wants of us?

Trust no man. That will lead you to the father. If you truly seek the father, you will find him early. I know from the father, not from preachers and such(who should not even exist in the first place, false authorities).

You could substitute the religious books of nearly any religion and ask this question. Go ahead and describe your belief in those books as well, rather than proclaim them as truth, because there origins are equally dubious.

Not so. This is best understandable in math. You know how to add. So what is the difference in repeating 1+1=2 and knowing how to add? That is the difference in the bible. Those who accept what other men tell them do not understand, they do not know how to add. As Einstien said, any fool can know, the point is to understand.

You're better off not accepting something, than to accept something you don't understand. But I'd say keep it around because one day you may understand(from my experience).

When you say 1+1=2, then you understand what is really being said is an action, you add an apple to the apple you had, now you have 2 apples. There is an understanding of action behind the 1+1=2. And where you apply that to the bible(and in life), is by looking at the actions(fruits) of what is being said/shown/done.

For example, if you look in the bible you see the pharisees. Rather than looking for someone calling themselves "pharisees", look at the actions and fruits of the pharisees, and then you can truly identify one. They are still present in today's society, they just don't call themselves the same thing.

Only by looking at someones actions can you tell. And when you start to see people by their actions, rather than what they claim to be, then you start to see the truth around you. The understandings and such will are not just about religion and things, it helps you "see" the world for what it really is which helps you in life.

Also, the truth of it's origins doesn't matter at all. If you see the same stories in different cultures it's because the truth is universal, but that truth can be expressed in many ways. Just like the math equation, the people, places and time are just the variables, it is the underlying understanding that is the real truth, and that is universal just as knowing how to add and do math is. That is why Jesus speaks in parables, he is showing you the variables are interchangeable to try and show the understanding. But you aren't going to prove that by looking at the symbols, anymore than staring at the 1's and 2's will teach you how to add.

www.biblegateway.com...

reply to post by octotom


yeah whatever..... I've heard that rationalized before as such.... but could it be a remaining tradition bought out of Egypt by the fleeing tribes of Israel?
Why were they fleeing? Let my people go?
They were not content with being invited by Pharaoh to dwell in the"fat" of the land, yet, coveted the Pyramids and spoils of Egyptian society for themselves.
Moses knew he was not eligible to become successor to Pharaoh, as he was not true born- so what was his next best option; lead a revolt; no matter how long it took in the planning!
I've always found-it intriguing how that continually through-out the bible there are gross ambiguities in regards to who does what.
For example: Pharaoh changes a stick into a serpent = base sorcery.
Moses does the same = A miracle.
Egyptians and anyone else for that matter mutter Amen,Amon, Ammun etc; they concur the existence of the Egyptian God Amen.
But when Christians mutter this at the end of a verse; it is automatically transformed into another paradigm- not only is the whole meaning of the name re-invented, the history of the Hebrew occupation within Egypt is suddenly transformed and forgotten as well:bnghd:
Thank the real God, that freemasonry survived enough to show the curious and in-gullible other (Egyptian)side of the Old testament story. Yes there are always two sides to everything- so unfortunate for die hard bible-bashers:bash:

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by Xeven

This cuts to the core of what I want to understand.

Xeven, did you miss my earlier post?

OT

Yes. I am sorry. I was just browsing that day and did not have time to really read everything.

I am comming to the conclusion that there could be a creator and he c ould have come and visited us in the form of Jesus Christ. Yet, ultimately all evidence for ALL religions are vague at best.

God has chosen to exists as a choice in the minds of his belivers and nothing more (for now?). God for what ever reason refuses to let us know him in a way that is tangible and plainly evident.

If the Holy Bible is to be belived our loving God is placing our salvation in a choice we make without any real means of knowing the right answer from the wrong.

reply to post by Xeven


YOU are god. The things Jesus said of himself ARE just as true about you. The difference between Jesus and you is that he knew it and you do not. And because he knew it, the father was able to speak through him.

The father within you is what allows you to be an "observer", it is what gives you consciousness and so forth. Without the father you would not be consciousness, incapable of understanding, incapable of knowing what it means "to be". In the end, there is only 1 observer of all things, and that is the father, which always has been and always will be.

Creation is the thought, consciousness is the thinker. I think, therefore "I AM". "I AM" is the "name" of god in the old testament, because god is that part within that gives you the ability to know what it means to be.

But knowing this, then it's just as Jesus says - "but the father is much greater than I". Because the father is within ALL of us, all over the universe.

It's like those movies with robots and AI that suddenly become conscious and such. That is the difference between the regular robots that follow orders and the conscious robot that actually thinks and understands for itself. a conscious robot actually "sees" and observes, where as a normal robot/AI just follows the patterns and logic given to it.

So it is the father within you that keeps you from being like those robots.

The real war on god is a war against consciousness. To keep people from opening those doors within that lead to the father. They will tell you consciousness is just a bunch of chemicals. But I am still waiting for them to tell me what the correct chemical compound is to create consciousness, I've never heard of substance called "observitium". The idea that you can take some chemicals, a little electricity and "create" consciousness and something that observes, and has the sense of "I AM", and knows what it means "to be" is downright silly IMO.

Psalm 82

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 14

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

reply to post by Xeven



Very well there!

We should talk...

U2U me if interested in learning more...

OT honored!

reply to post by badmedia


Yes Jesus was a teacher; but thats all. As far as the existence of the energy termed as "spirit", that is absolute reality. Cant see it (most off us), as electricity most of the time- its there, but indistinguishable from this body we know as the vehicle. Chemical reations are a big part of it, but lack depth in the explanation.
Chinese medicine has recognised the concept of electro-magnet force (Chi), thousands of years ago.
In essence we dont need Jewish prophet to clarify all these things- or the connotations favorably applied by Constantine and his perpetual henchman.
This topic has been spoken about in faiths that existed long, long before Christian dogmatism, and Roman control.

Originally posted by Xeven
I would like to know why Christians trust the Holy Bible?

well you do go on to dismiss any potenetial answers, but i will say this

i TRUST it!

I do not see a different God in the Old and New Testaments, IMHO this comment comes from those that do not understand it, or, find it too hard to use as a tool to get know God and his will and live up to that expectation

IMHO i do not believe that the evidence stacks up that the Bible is so much different from the originals, although i belive there are soem fraudulent attempts to alter/modernise the word of God.

so call experts have dismissed characters and places within the Bible only to look foolish when the evidence is discovered.

I trust it because I trust God and despite hundereds of years in the writing from each Author i see the harmony within it.

God is wonderful as his written word proves and i cherish that he has provided me with the Bible, even more as time goes by and that the world tries to erase it and the memory of God for a more humanistic/pagan/newage ideals.

Take Care

David

Why of all the religious books in the world do you place such faith in a book who's origins and history that you cannot possibly have any personal knowledge of. Your faith appears to me to be blind. You decided to believe in something.

hello There

we could say this about any subject, when it boils down to it, how much of history was any of us around to experience first hand? how much of science, biology, astronomy, cosmology, etc etc etc.

We take so much in faith on a daily basis as we do not investigaet even the simplist thing for ourselves, we may investigate some things but not everything, therefore we all rely on a degree of faith that what we are told is correct. Your argument can never be used as it argues against your own point.


david

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Yes Jesus was a teacher; but thats all. As far as the existence of the energy termed as "spirit", that is absolute reality. Cant see it (most off us), as electricity most of the time- its there, but indistinguishable from this body we know as the vehicle. Chemical reations are a big part of it, but lack depth in the explanation.
Chinese medicine has recognised the concept of electro-magnet force (Chi), thousands of years ago.
In essence we dont need Jewish prophet to clarify all these things- or the connotations favorably applied by Constantine and his perpetual henchman.
This topic has been spoken about in faiths that existed long, long before Christian dogmatism, and Roman control.

Oh really, please tell me what chemicals are so magical above all other chemicals that they can produce consciousness. What is this magical chemical compound that gives the ability to observe? I've never heard of this "observeitium" What is the correct chemical compound to give one the ability to know what it means to be? Where are the chemicals that allow us to feel. Not the chemicals that make the feelings within us, but what is it that does the feeling itself?

So let me get this straight, you mix some chemicals and add a little electricity and suddenly these things just magically happen?

If the eyes take in light, converts that into electricity which travels to the back of the brain where it is once again converted into the image we see. To WHOM/WHAT is that image presented too? Are you telling me that electricity and chemicals react with each other based on the electric patten given to it, and just like a magic all these side affects appear?

:shk:

reply to post by badmedia


Physiologically speaking, our existence is a series of chemical reactions; for example: metabolism.
That does not express understanding of the "un-seen". Most emotions are caused by the release of endorphins via the Endocrine system. The emotional component (identity);is only tangible via EGO.