Judaism

Guys please Chill out - I can feel the Hate coming through my Computer Screen - Is this what Religion is all about - Hate? Maybe this is Satan's Plan.

I always thought that Spirituality was about Enlightenment & Raising your Conciousness?

Quote: "Christians persecuted both Jews and Muslims in Christendom Europe."

Actually the People who lead the Inquisition Tortured not only Jews but PAGANS ("Witches") & Gnostics & any sort of so-called "Unbeliever" - or Anyone that was not just like them - i.e. Kissing thier Butt. That was about Empire not Religion - That was NOT Christianity - nor was the Holocaust of Jews by Nazi's in WW2 "Christian". Jesus Christ taught PEACE & LOVE!!!

Actually, if you look at the date(s) of the last posts, you'll see they have both been "chilled out"..last year.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Guys please Chill out - I can feel the Hate coming through my Computer Screen - Is this what Religion is all about

Where have you been the last 2000 years.....this is so what religion is all about. It's not what religion is supossed to be about...but more wars and killing and hatered has/have stemed from religion than any thing else

Toltec----------

Tsk Tsk Tsk. You should really be ashamed of yourself by this silly post.

Your unforgiveable ignorance of many important facts pertaining to the formation of the Israelitish traditions ("Judaiesm") which modern archaeology has uncovered over the past 100 years is nothing short of ghastly.

You repeatedly fail to mention the wholesale borrowing of many aspects of the cult of YHWH (and much of the traditions of later Rabinninc Judaism) from Israel's older and more sophisticated neighbours, much of which was taken over during times of Exile (e.g. Egypt and Babylon, but also Persia and Greece).

You seem to be under the Rosy Coloured Impression that the whole Religion "of Judaeism" just magically wafted down from the sky on its own accord.

The truth is somewhat different, I'm afraid.

There are several key points you have conveniently omitted altogether and you are incorrect on many basic points of fact which even new converts to Judaism know already.

You also seem to believe the blatant propaganda in the Hebrew Bible versions and seem ignorant of Graf Wellhausen source documentary research over the past 120 years which makes Mosaic Authorship of the Torah impossible.

Can you even read Hebrew ?

Where did you get all this Sunday School Nonsense about �G-d� talking to Moses and Abraham, and �chosen people� (sounds like Hitler�s Master Race to me) completely omitting the infinitely more complex history of the Israelitish amphytionies whose numbers don�t even match within their own traditions (read the Song of Deborah for 12 tribes with 4 new tribes with names like Machir who are not part of the socalled 12 tribes listed in Exodus).

Your gross overgeneralizations and mis-statement of facts is appalling.

You need to read ANET (Ancient Near Eastern Texts ed. By Pritchard: it might open your eyes to all the various cults of YHWH and the true origin of �Judaieism�)

The term "G-d" is used in this essay to respect the Jewish prohibition against spelling the name or title of the deity in full.

Dates listed which are prior to the 4th century BCE are approximate.


YOU WROTE: "Circa 2000 BCE, the G-d of the ancient Israelites established a divine covenant with Abraham, making him the patriarch of many nations."

Divine Covenant? What on earthy are you talking about? !

(You seem ignorant of the fact that all those "stories" revolving around �Abram/Avraham� are legendary midrash written in late Hebrew around 480 BC and are clearly not "history" in the modern positivistic sense.)

Abraham (according to Middle eastern Legends) was supposed to be the father of both Israelites and the Arab clans: Ishmael according to the Muslims had 12 sons and was the one who was sacrificed by Abraham on Mt Moriah, not Isaac as the Jews and Christians believe---

YOU WROTE: "The book of Genesis describes the events surrounding the lives of the three patriarchs"

You've left a lot out here: The Book of Genesis has 12 chapters of Myths which are adapted but based on the more ancient Babylonian Hymns of Creation told in terms of the Jewish Clan god Yahweh: these myths occur in the text before the Patriarchal narratives (which are post exilic renditions of haggadic midrashic legends of these �founders� It is NOT just about Abraham Isaac and Jacob: it is a collection based on THE THEME OF EXILE, i.e. a result of the the Babylonian Captivity during which time these accounts were set in writing, and why YHWH allowed this to happen to the Israelites if they are the chosen Race on earth�).

ALSO: THERE IS NO ONE TEXT OF GENESIS OR OF THE OLD TESTAMENT: THERE ARE UP TO FOUR TEXT FAMILIES ALL CLAIMING TO BE CORRECT BUT WHICH DIFFER FROM EACH OTHER MORE THAN 20% OF THE TIME

There are THREE major versions of Genesis:

The LXX Vorlage (the Hebrew underlying the Septuaginta Greek of BC 270)
The Samaritan Pentateuch (dated around 510 BC) The Masoretic Text (used by Jews and Protestants today), based on a single MS in Leningrad, c. AD 860

There is also the Pe#ta (Syriac) and the Targum Aramaic Paraphrases which date from c. 100 to 400 AD)

These text families DO NOT MATCH in about 30,000 places (i.e. roughly 20% of the text is different between them). So there is �no final version of the Book of Genesis� or of the Torah or Writings or Prophets for that matter. Just hundreds of contradictory manuscripts that have scribal marginalia, additions,deletions and re-wordings, most of them deliberate.

The discovery of some of these alternate texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls (e.g. the Hebrew versions of the Tanak which underlay the Septuaginta Greek of BC 250) was a big shocker to both Jews and Christians who spend a great deal of time NOT talking about it. )

YOU WROTE: "MOSES RECEIVED THE LAW FROM G-D"

Curious.

You failed to mention that the texts in question are not FROM "GOD" but from YAHWEH THE CLAN GOD OF THE ISRAELITES, i.e. a local Canaanite deity, who hates the Amalekites and wants as the Jebusites exterminated.

The word MOSHE does not mean �drawn out� but means �SON OF� in Egyptian (e.g. Ramoshe = son of Amun-Ra is usually written out as Ramses etc.) Moses and his immediate circle all had Egyptian names (e.g. Miriam, Phineas, Aaron etc.)

What the Jews call �The Torah of Moses�is a patchwork compilation ofdifferent cultic and societal laws which was written and collected by different priestly families in different cult centers in Canaan, and heavily adapted over a 500 year period.

They did NOT come from any clan god from atop any mountain top.

Even the very idea of MONOTHEISM derives from Anhkenaten in Egypt whose new religion in 1550 BC was brutally supressed by rival priestly cults.

Toltec, you seem ignorant of so many "Israeliteish" borrowings from other pagan cultures!

Most of them are borrowed from the 47 Negative Confessions of Egypt (BC 3000 or earlier) and the Code of Hammurabi (BC 1756), all of which PREDATE MOSES by several centuries. Marduk the clan god of the Babylonians and Shamash the Sun god is seen in the steles in Babylon (BC 1700) giving the Tables of the Law to Hammurabi ATOP A MOUNTAIN�sound familiar?

YOU WROTE: "After decades of wandering through wilderness, Joshua led the tribes into the promised land, driving out the Canaanites through a series of military battles. "

The Racist-Zionist genocidal militarism which condones RACIAL ExTERMINATION in the heinous "Book of Joshua" (which also is quite a different text tradition in the LXX Vorlage and the later Masoretic Text especially in the final chapter--- for those of you who do-not-know!) is one of the Warts on the Nose of the Jewish Bible.

It makes one seriously wonder if Hilter's MEIN KAMPF is any worse than the words placed into the clan god of Israel with respect to the inhabitants of AI and JERICHO.

I would strongly urge all people on this thread to read the book and decide this issue for yourself.

Toltec, you've also conveniently left out the fact that preExilic Jews worshipped a variety of gods, even Solomon (read 1-II Kings for a taste of non Yahwistic worship was like in Israel BEFORE the Exile when they decided upon a SINGLE Clan god, YHWH: i.e. Yahweh is our clan-god, YHWH alone...in Deut chapter 6)


You also left out the fact that the Invasions of Assyria destroyed several of the northern non Yahwistic cults in 722-701 BC: Hezekiah destroyed even more (around 670 BC) and Josiah destroyed the remainder in (621 BC)

Also: of the 24 Priestly families that were exiled into Babylonia, only 4 ever came back so the number had to be filled in by Gentiles in 480 BC

YOU WROTE: "Orthodox Jews date the Babylonian exile from 422 to 352 BCE"

These socalled Orthodox Jews (whoever they are, and whatever that means) are confused about their dates and follow only the Masoretic late Hebrew texts to derive this fictitious numbering.

From the archaelogical digs since 1850, the socalled Babylonian Exile must have occurred somewhere between 587BC to 521 BC : Babylon couldn�t exile anyone in 422 when the Persians controlled their country:

Don't forget : the 3 main text families of the Hebrew Bible viz. the Masoretic text, the LXX Borlage and the Samartian Pentateuch all use different date schemas in Genesis through Chronicles, each reflecting different groups with different political aims.

So there is NO ONE SINGLE TEXT that can be used as "authoritative"..

YOU WROTE: "Alexander the Great invaded the area in 332 BCE. "

But you left out the LXX translation of the Vorlage in Egypt---a text which later Christians canonised as "authoritative" and used by Catholics today.

It was during the Greek period, the Jews in Alexandria no longer spoke Hebrew and had the OT texts translated into Greek so they could read them: this text is called the LXX Septuaginta, and DOES NOT MATCH the Masoretic text used by Jews and Protestants today in about 21% of the material)

You also LEFT OUT THE MACABBEAN REVOLT AND THE OUTLAWING OF JUDAIESM IN JERUSALEM UNDER THE SYRIAN GREEK ANTIOCHUS THE 4th...

Some historian you are !

YOU WROTE: "In 63 BCE, the Roman Empire took control of Palestine."

But you failed to mention that the Persians had control of Palestine for 200 years at which time various Persian Zoroastrian ideas were introduced into the cults of YHWH, e.g. LIGHT/DARK, the idea of SATAN (Shaitan) which originally meant "enemy" and had been previously used to describe the Philisitines, HEAVEN/HELL and RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, all of which percolated into Christianity and Rabinnic Judaeism.

(Th Roman General Pompey invaded Jerusalem and went in search of the golden statue of YHWH but found only an empty golden room: 100 years to the date of Pompey�s invasion, R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean led yet another revolt against Rome, and was executed in AD 36 as an armed seditionist (Luke 22:18) during the reign of the Emperor Tiberius)

YOU WROTE: "Four major (and some minor) religious sects had formed by the 1st century AD: the Basusim, Essenes, Pharisees and Sadducees. "\

But you failed to distinguish between them. The Essenoi for example called themselves SONS OF ZADOK (Tzadukkim, or "Saduccees" etc.)

You also left out all the other sects of Judaeism which sprang up before and during the failed Jewish Revolt against Rome in AD 66-72, the Zelotim, Secarriim and also the break off sect, the Samaratim who worshipped on Mount Gerazim, not Moriah, but who still called themselves Jews)

ONE CANNOT SPEAK OF JUDAIESM IN THE 1st CENTURY: ONE CAN ONLY SPEAK OF JUDAEISMS, all WITH DIFFERENT TEXTS THEY CONSIDERED INSPIRED...

YOU WROTE: "Christianity was established initially as a Jewish sect, centered in Jerusalem. "

But again, you failed to distinguish between the TWO aspects of early Chrsitianity: viz. the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians:

The two main sects of Christianity emerged AFTER THE JEWISH WAR in AD 66-72.

The Nazorean-Ebionite Church founded by Jesus and his brother James who demanded allegiance to Temple Sacrifices (�salvation by works�) and the tenets of the Torah were wiped out by the REVOLT, : the other Pauline-Marcionite Churches WERE SPREAD OUT AROUND THE ROMAN EMPITER AND WERE VIRUTALLY UNTOUCHED BY THE WAY, and THEREFORE LIVED TO TELL THE TALE as it were----These newfangled "Christians" did NOT require kashrut or circumcision or temple sacrifices, and let gentiles freely enter into their congregations (�Salvation by Faith in the teacher� which they quickly made VERY UN JEWISH).

YOU ALSO FAILED TO MENTION THIS LITTLE FACT OF HISTORY: Saul of Tarsus, or �Paul� never met �Iesous� except in dreams and visions: yet he called himself an Apostle anyway, despite the fact that the Nazorean churches founded by Jesus and his brother denounced him as a heretic)

YOU WROTE: "Many mini-revolts led to the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 CE. "

You have UNDERSTATED the Horrific 1st Jewish Revolt against Rome in AD 66-72 which killed 2/3rds of the Jewish Palestinian population.

The Horrors of this Jewish Failed Revolt was vividly (if prejudiciously) recounted by an Eye Witness to many of the events, Josephus, the Jewish Turncoat who later fled to Rome to write about it: We can see at once that it was hadly a series of �mini rebellions� but a highly organized and concerted attempt among mainstream population to throw off the Yoke of Rome organized by Messianic movements within the country of which Nazorean-Ebionite Christianity was one of them, which resulted in the death of 900,000 Palestinian Jews�2/3rd of their population).

YOU WROTE: "Their religion was no longer centered in Jerusalem; Jews were prohibited from setting foot there. "

But you did not mention that this finally happened after the 2nd Failed Revolt against Rome in AD 136 under Bar Kokhba (Shimeon bar Kosiba) who was regarded as the Messiah by his followers, where another 100,000 Jews died.

The Emperor Hadrian razed the city again and built pagan shrines, and exiled all Jews from the area, renaming Jerusalem as �Aeolia Capitolina� (after his first name Aeolius) and the whole territory as �Palestina� after the Philistine Tribes who predated the Israelites. )

YOU WROTE: "The period from the destruction of the temple onward give rise to heavy persecution by Christians throughout Europe and Russia. "

YOU DID NOT MENTION THE KHAZARIAN CONVERSION OF MORE THAN 1 MILLION GENTILES TO JUDAEISM (AD 780-AD980) AROUND KIEV IN THE UKRAINE: a FACT WHICH LED TO THE CREATION OF THE ASHKENAZI WHO ARE NON-SEMITIC CONVERTS TO JUDAEISM.

YOU WROTE: "Unsubstantiated rumors continue to be circulated today. In the 1930s and 1940s, Adolph Hitler and the German Nazi party drew on centuries of anti-Semitism, and upon their own psychotic beliefs in racial purity. They organized the Holocaust, the attempted extermination of all Jews in Europe. About 6 million were killed in one of the world's greatest examples of religious and racial intolerance. "

Yet....the 6 million number of the Jewish Holocaust victims is of course famously disputed: we should think more along the lines of 3.8 to 4.1 million Ashkenazim converts to Judaeism: Hitler also gassed 1.2 Million Homosexuals and approximately 2.3 million �gypsies�, as well as 8 million Aryan political prisoners�let�s not forget those numbers either)

YOU WROTE:

"G-d is the creator of all that exists; he is one, incorporeal (without a body), and he alone is to be worshipped as absolute ruler of the universe. "

What utter nonsense.

The name of the post Exilic clan-god of the Jews became �YHWH� (or �Yahweh� ) AFTER THE EXILE and is a mixture of several local Canannite gods' attributes and is given several names in the Hebrew Bible (Eloah, El, Elohim, Yahweh, El Shaddai, El Elyon, ALLL ORIGINALLY WERE SEPARATE CULTS with their own priesthoods in temples scattered all around Palestine and worshipped FOR CENTURIES by various "Canaanite Jewish" groups people BEFORE THE EXILE, which was later codified into a single "god" AFTER THE EXILE WHEN JUDAEISM BECAME MONOTHEISTIC).

Before that time, the religions of the "Israelitish clans" was MONOLATROUS (you can worship other gods, but "none before my faces, saith YHWH), in other words, Yahweh in front of the others in the "Temple. "

YOU WROTE: "The first five books of the Hebrew Bible were revealed to Moses by G-d. It will not be changed or augmented in the future. "

This is utter nonsense considering the vast numbers of contradictory manuscripts we've discovered over the past 200 years.

Even the older more original texts are hardle a UNITY: The first five books of the Hebrew Bible was clearly written by at least 5 scribal groups (J E P and D with a Redactor living around the time of Ezra):

TOLTEC: YOU NEED TO READ: Who Wrote the Bible? By Eliot Friedmann for a general introduction to Graf Wellhausen�s Source Documentary Hypothesis which still is in effect after 120 years.)

YOU WROTE: "G-d has communicated to the Jewish people through prophets. G-d monitors the activities of humans; he rewards individuals for good deeds and punishes evil "

Again, more fatuous dribble: What one priestly group considered �sinful� in the eyes of the clan god differed from what other priestly groups considered �sinful��and the "god" of Israel is hardly universal: he is more interested in solving the internal political problems of his "chosen" people and exterminating the Amalekites (and measuring temple curatains for some reason---perhaps he's just a frustrated interior decorator !).

Just because a book claims to be speaking the words of a clan god, doesn't mean that the clan god even exists: it merely means the prieste who wrote this garbage wanted to controll their people religiously and politically:

The clan god of Israel is clearly a fake human construct of many gods and priesthoods "which projected into the heavens" the aspirations of a certain collection of tribes into a god which promised them everything they wanted: this was achieved with magical "prophetic words" weitten long AFTER the events they "prophesy" by powerful Levetical priestly families who placed these socalled laws and prophecies into the god's mouth e.g. such racist vomit as " go out and exterminate all the tribes of Amalek�.leave notning breathing�.men women children and the animals...�

Hardly the words of a Universal Deity, but rather the fabrications of local priests who were trying to solve their own internal political problems).

YOU WROTE: "The Jews are often referred to as G-d's chosen people. "

This is RACIST LANGUAGE which smacks of the ravings of Mein Kampf

Conside the Source: If the Hopi Indians wrote the �Bible� you can bet your last PeacePipe that the Hopi Indians would be God�s Chosen People and you�d never even have heard about �Jews�. It�s a lot like History is Written by the Winners.

AGAIN I REMIND YOU WHEN YOU READ ANYTHING WRITTEN BY ANYONE: CONSIDER THE SOURCE OF THE MATERIAL BEFORE YOU PONTIFICATE ON ITS CONTENTS i.e. NOTE ALL THE PREJUDICES CONTAINED IN THE WRITING ITSELF�.)

YOU WROTE: "The 613 commandments found in Leviticus and other books regulate all aspects of Jewish life"

Toltec you fail to remember that one can hardly OBEY even a part of the socalled 613 �commandments� since the Temple of YHWH was burned down by Rome and sacrificing oxen in the Back Yard can get so �messy� and neighbours tend to hate the smell...and besides there's no priests to do the work...

YOU WROTE: "The Ten commandments, as delineated in Exodus 20:1-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21, form a brief synopsis of the Law "

These contradictory versions of the Decalogue are all free borrowings and adaptations of the Egyptian Negative Confessions found inscribed over walls on tombs, from oral prayers dated between 3000 and 4000 BC e.g. I have never murdered, I have never stolen, I have never committed adultery, I have never profaned the holy days of the local gods, I have never dishonoured my parents etc. Sound familiar? Yet they all date 2000 years BEFORE �Moses�!!)

YOU WROTE: "The Messiah (anointed one of G-d) will arrive in the future and gather Jews once more into the land of Israel. There will be a general resurrection of the dead at that time. The Jerusalem Temple, destroyed in 70 CE, will be rebuilt. "

This is what the right wing fanatics like Dr Rabbi Baruch Goldstein believed before he opeed fire with an automatic weapon screaming verses from Hezekial chapter 8 and 9 and Deuteronomy chapter 13 and chapter 20, and murdered 29 Palestinians on their knees praying to "God" �facing the east� on Feb 25 1994 in the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron.

Here's a piece of their warped logic about the 3rd Temple: �A Day with YHWH as is 1000 years��after two days he will destroy us, on the third Day he will raise us up�� therefore these racist zealots believe that they will have the 3rd Temple of YHWH rebuilt in AD 2070:

NEWSLFASH: There�s a LARGE OCTANGULAR BUILDING CALLED THE DOME OF THE ROCK ESTABLISHED BY THE MUSLMS SITTING ON THE EXACT SPOT WHERE THIS SUPPOSED 3RD TEMPLE IS SUPPOSED TO RESIDE�

I could go on for another 100 pages, but this post is already too long. Please do not repeat such vapid arguments without bothering to recheck your data---you're confusing alot of people on this thread with your rosy-coloured view of Judaiesm and by masking the racism inherent in both the Torah and the Talmud---which shows absolutely no tolerance of difference....something we need to inculcate in our younger generation if they are to survive into the 22nd century....

Wow Amadeus - you must be a Genius. Thank you for Laying out the Truth & the Facts! Thank you for exposing Racism & for showing us what is really meant by the words "Anti-Semitic". Hmm... Lets See - supposedly
Islamic Extremists destroyed the WTC on 9/11/2001. So what is Next - does this give "Zionist" Governments the right to destroy the
"Dome of the Rock" so that they can rebuild the "Temple of David". Don't believe everything that you hear in the Media Folks - please be more Skeptical - all of the stuff that is going down now & has been going down for the last 3 years - has been planned for a very long time!!!

Hey amadeus. sad to say, but it's apparent that your "scholarship" is based entirely on your understanding of the writings of certain "academics" whose entire reason for writing what they've written is in order to prove their religious view that Judaism is wrong...a religious view with which you apparently concur. Why do you feel it necessary to prove to everyone that you're right and they're wrong? Sounds like religion envy to me...

-t