Socialized Medicine

stop with the "socialized medicine" all ready

its called public health care and a portion of your tax money goes to that system allready.

your system is just idiotic and your getting screwed along the way the end.

its just a word play thats been put over your eyes so you miss the real point of it all ,

either you pay taxes and you get the full benefit of your system or that tax money is going to someone´s poket and your not getting the treatment your goverment owes you.

i have never in my life had to use my insurance for illness or sickness or broken limb/s thanks to the public health care system and the way the goverment over here uses the tax money it gets.

i almost broke my back a couple of years ago , luckily i only tore a disk and am still recovering , the whole treatment has cost me well under a hundred bucks so far and that includes all check ups and medicine during these 5 years.

now the only benefit i would have had of using my insurance at that time was if i was unable to continue working and the insurance would have payed me the salery for the time i was "out of service" but luckily i can work from home with minimal unnessecary movement.

its all a word play ,

if your public health care system is broken then so is your country
and it has nothing to do with fasism or socialism.

your just being conned.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
Not only that but health care will go from what the best treatment is for you to what is cost effective. In not so many words there will be some bureaucrat sitting up in Washington looking at what treatment you should get and will tell the doctor what to do.

You are completely clueless. Do you know any doctors? Have you watched Michael Moore's Sicko?

My father is a dentist, I have a good friend who is a doctor, and I know that the above statement is such non-sense, it almost hurts to respond.

First of all, right now, if you have insurance, there is a BUREAUCRAT at some insurance company that is there to make sure that the company is profitable for its shareholders so he/she is paid to decline your doctor's request for treatment, tests, etc...

If you do not have insurance, try paying for a simple procedure. It can cost hundreds, if not thousands.

Most doctors/dentist are lucky to get paid for half of the treatments that they submit to the insurance company. I know of certain medical professionals who determine that (A) is the best course of treatment for a patient, the insurance company says NO, do cheaper, ineffective alternative (B). Medical Professional still does (A) and has patient pay the difference.

This is insurance fraud. Its stupid, but the doctor needs to earn a living, the patient needs the treatment, and the insurance company refuses to pay.

Another scenario, as a criminal defense attorney I am privy to this information. In a dental office, patient need restorative work, i.e. bridge, implant, cap, crown, etc.... The insurance company says no pull the tooth. Dentist does restorative work, has patient pay some of the price difference, and dentist finds some other creative ways to bill the insurance the difference. Again insurance fraud, but is it really? the dentist provided the most relevant treatment rather than leaving the patient toothless.

The system we have is designed so that individuals and their employers pay huge premiums to the insurance companies so that they can turn mega profits while patients get substandard care and doctors have to be very creative in their billing to make a living.

In England for example, doctor decides the best course of treatment, and the national health insurance pays for it no questions asked, and the doctor does not have a pecuniary interest in going for the most expensive treatment because he is salaried.

This whole anti-nation health care movement is the result of years of brain washing by the government (in the pocket of insurance company's pockets) politicians.

As an attorney, I worked for an insurance defense law firm. I can tell you that they look to decline coverage at every chance possible. You pay your premium for years, and when you need coverage, they search for a way to decline coverage and cancel your policy.

WAKE UP AMERICA, YOU ARE BEING DUPED!!!!

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by mental modulator

 

BTW it the right via REPUBLICANS that keep downing cheaper drug import via CANADA

Tell the fool headed partisan this point again - my family in on $1.5 million for a cancer bill.

Uh huh, thanks for proving my point of who the partisan is.

This is why this is a pointless conversation, because people like you base your politics off of emotion. You have illogical and irrational view points. You are unable to think critically.

We have a big government now and you hate it, but yet you want a different big government because the one we have now doesn't fit your indoctrinated view point.

That sucks your family is on the hook for a 1.5 million dollar cancer bill, but if you read the universal health care provision in the stimulus package some bureaucrat in Washington could decide that it isn't worth treating the cancer

call me names for your lack of intelligence.

EMOTIONS??? Emotions negate intellect

Your views are illogical - the rich are getting richer - the poor are getting poorer - the rich just got a $1,000,000,000,000 tax cut - lets give the rich more... to help maintain our dying middle class

Thats logical for sure!


And it is clear you are getting you information on universal healthcare from FOX... Maybe PECK????

The universal health plan will be modeled after GB - a board of regents ( same group that handles hospitals now will be in charge ) - the fed will handle dues and negotiate
pricing, care will still be delegated to similar bodies. Individuals can still seek private insurance BTW.

And yes I am partisan - and you are ideologue as am I.

Additionally, if the current US health care system provides such high quaility medical services, then why are we ranked 45th in the world in life expectancy?

List of nations' life expectancy

Edit to add, people in Bosnia live longer than we do in the US for crying out loud!

[edit on 27-3-2009 by finemanm]

yeah socialized medicine is horrible here in a canada.

when i cut off a finger, i dont have to pay 35,000$ to get it sewn back on.
its terrible, i hate it.

when i break my wrist, i dont have to pay 5,000$ to get it reset and cast. man...we are getting ripped off here.

-------------------------------------------

taxes going through the roof? yeah... that would suck, if our minimum wage wasnt nearly 10$/h. yeah...move up here and make 9.50$ working at mcdonalds, compared to your.... 6.00?

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the reason you dont have socialized healthcare is because your doctors want 3 cars and a porche instead of 2 cars and a porche.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by 30 Seconds]

fineman

You are completely clueless. Do you know any doctors? Have you watched Michael Moore's Sicko?

Right, now you want me take anything you say seriously after asking if I watched a propaganda flick? You just lost all credibility with that right there.

Yes, I have watched it. I know plenty of doctors too, An every single argument made for socialized medicine is due to the insurance system which is regulated by guess who... The government.

I guess you failed to notice that that there is a higher sampling size of people in America compared to other countries? Notice has China and India both have lower life expectancy, and the EU is only .64 years more?

WHO the hell is destroying AMERICA???? IT you rigid board headed fellows who are entirely to self absorbed. Quite frankly your ideology lost this go around, so quite frankly I could care less about what you think, hows that? THE rich have had their pockets lined in the last decade, that is the core of what you guys want and you got it.

I hope when you read about cured cancer for $32 out of pocket and an AMERICAN who is at a 1.5 million tab you think...

Anyhow have fun gnashing yer teeth these next four! cheers!

Yea, that is why Obama is currently funelling billions more to the same banks right? That is why is Obama topped the list of AIG campaign contributors at number 2 right? That is why Obama has 3 executives of unions on one of his advisory boards, these unions, mind you, that have millions and billions of dollars worth of assets that are pushing to unionize every business they possibly can right?

My ideology didn't lose just because some inexperienced president won an election, and it definitely didn't lose because I'm the only one in this thread expressing an alternate view point.

You have no idea what I know about cancer drugs and cancer, and I'm not about to tell you, but I can tell you one thing I wouldn't come close to having any of that crap injected into my body.

I'm not going to be gnashing my teeth for the next four years, I'm going to be laughing at the partisans like you while we are all getting bent over. I'm going to be laughing and when the next 4 years comes around and he gets kicked straight out of office and the country is in shambles I'm going to be right here telling you we told you so.

EMOTIONS??? Emotions negate intellect

Your views are illogical - the rich are getting richer - the poor are getting poorer - the rich just got a $1,000,000,000,000 tax cut - lets give the rich more... to help maintain our dying middle class Thats logical for sure!

And it is clear you are getting you information on universal healthcare from FOX... Maybe PECK????

The universal health plan will be modeled after GB - a board of regents ( same group that handles hospitals now will be in charge ) - the fed will handle dues and negotiate pricing, care will still be delegated to similar bodies. Individuals can still seek private insurance BTW.

And yes I am partisan - and you are ideologue as am I.

Yep, you just proved how pointless of a conversation is when you are trying to debate somebody that is indoctrinated into a view point. More irrational name calling dribble. You have no idea what my ideologue is the only thing you know about me is based off of two or three topics. You have no idea about how I feel about other things. Meanwhile while you are trying to group me into the completely different group of people that doesn't even match what I think you keep on spewing your partisan talking points.

The universal health care model here would be based off of Daschle plans, who said, "the elderly will have to bare the pain." And a Board of Directors over a hospital doesn't decide what treatment you get, your doctor decides that. Unless you have some really super serious disease in which your doctor will then collaborate with his colleagues and then decide what the best route to go is.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife An every single argument made for socialized medicine is due to the insurance system which is regulated by guess who... The government.

Sorry, I just don't get it when Americans tell me that they are incapable of running a Universal Health Care System.

And if you'll forgive me saying, you shouldn't take umbrage at folk making certain assumptions about your ideology when your nic is "Hastobemoretolife" and your avatar has a hand gun.

It likely ain't all blue skies and happy unicorns...

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife An every single argument made for socialized medicine is due to the insurance system which is regulated by guess who... The government.

Sorry, I just don't get it when Americans tell me that they are incapable of running a Universal Health Care System.

And if you'll forgive me saying, you shouldn't take umbrage at folk making certain assumptions about your ideology when your nic is "Hastobemoretolife" and your avatar has a hand gun.

It likely ain't all blue skies and happy unicorns...

HOW bout you and that feller trade places???

I think the bottom line is that the government honestly does not care about our well being and no matter what they say they couldn't care less!! no matter what our population is it is tied into some of these statistics that say we have the largest immortality rate, so you cant say that is the reason, the reason is people here can not afford there medications, surgery, check ups, everything!!!and due to the evil little thing called money they die!! and the government could care less. but I bet if it were there mothers and fathers and children getting sick they would get the best health care known to man no questions asked. but yet I feel they still would not change there money hungry,selfish minds about universal health care.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


I am not an Obamamaniac!

I just know that the current insurance system is a complete BS money making scheme and not about health care.

A lot of doctors are scared of nationalized health care because they think it will put a dent in their pockets. Many of them would like to continue to the play the insurance game because they know it. Sure, most doctors in nations that have nationalized health care don't make as much as American Doctors, but this system is broken.

Give you a simple personal example. I have a relative with a heart condition. He already had a triple bypass, and a subsequent stent.

He had an issue and went to a cardiologist that he was unfamiliar with because his doctor was out of town. This cardiologist wanted to perform tons of tests on this relative of mine. He was oprehensive and instead decided to wait until his usual doctor returned.

When he spoke to his usual doctor, he was informed that the above-mentioned cardiologist wanted to do all those tests in order to bilk the insurance company. Some of the tests could have possed a serious threat to my relative's life.

As for Michael Moore, I know he is a propagandist, but he has some valid points. I believe the part of the movie where he meets that doctor in London who drives and Audi and lives in a really nice home. I am sure that doctors in nationalized health care systems do just fine financially, just not as well as American Doctors.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


Hey, you spurt out RONALD REAGAN... You are a complete ideologue yourself.

Once again I AM A PROGRESSIVE LIBERAL - I admit it.

However you are a righty are you not? RR track record? come on...

Anyhow I think the current healthcare system in AMERICA is a scam - We pay for the fire department to extinguish a char-broiled motorist but not the ambulance ride?
I think that is backwards? I have never experienced a fire personally. Anyhow
you will learn when illness strikes close to home unfortunately. I will see the sick practice of the current system where life and existence becomes a matter of dollars and cents. The government is the PEOPLES house, the people have chosen to change this scam created by NIXON and KAISER.

Personally speaking I received better healthcare in NZ and MEXICO - faster. more intensive, personal and virtually free for me in comparison.

As far as indoctrination... How is it that you are not indoctrinated? YOU follow GLEN PECK, a shill for big business, I follow my conscience and my brain ( even if you disregard its potential). I do not follow MSM, I do not categorically defend the DEMS - although I do hate the GOP.

YOUR stance is not pro AMERICAN in this argument - YOUR stance is pro STATUS QUO
- if not please govern set me straight? Because as I see it YOU are on the front line in a partnership with BUSINESS, comprised of foreign nationals and god knows who. You support the pillaging of our pockets, via this business.

YOU are fearful of the future... I hope for all of our sakes I get my way - you can still seek private care and nothing is set in stone in a democracy.

I'm just a lowly Chef & Musician here in America & my wife works for a major Hotel Chain, we both have health insurance & we both have each other on on our policies. Our insurances both pay high percentages of the total cost, & we have never ever since we've been married have had to pay any monies out of our pockets for Doctor visits/Hospital stays/Emergency Room visits. Our Prescriptions have never ever cost either one of us over $5 to $10, we are absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt happy with our coverage. We also both have Dental & Eye care plans that pay the same amount of high percentages of the total cost, & we both have each other on those policies as well & yes, we have the the same $0 amount coming out of our pockets for those type of Health Care too which is $0. We're neither rich nor privaleged we just have jobs where the powers that be don't **ck us in the ass with Pine Cones.

[edit on 28-3-2009 by smokehouseslim]

Originally posted by smokehouseslim we both have each other on those policies as well & yes, we have the the same $0 amount coming out of our pockets for those type of Health Care too which is $0. We're neither rich nor privaleged we just have jobs where the powers that be don't **ck us in the ass with Pine Cones.

You are indeed fortunate, then. I'm not sure if you're saying that you can use your wife's insurance against yours and vice-versa...up here we can't 'double-dip' like that (At least I don't think so). It's either her's or mine. Actually, both would be cool. That's drugs, dental, vision care and such.

Still have to lay out $30 for a PSA test if you aren't covered by private insurance...or already have prostate cancer. For all the good in our system...that blows!

Thanks for the input.

Just read "Medical Nemesis" and "Disabling Professions" both by Ivan Illich and you will begin to understand why people have a right to refuse Healthcare and a right to not be forced to use medical services, under socialized care the choices are made for you, for efficiency, etc.

Originally posted by bubbabuddha
Just read "Medical Nemesis" and "Disabling Professions" both by Ivan Illich and you will begin to understand why people have a right to refuse Healthcare and a right to not be forced to use medical services, under socialized care the choices are made for you, for efficiency, etc.

I'm not going to go enter into a debate called "Health care based on efficiency is a positive thing"...but I'd rather it be based on efficiency (as in the most efficient way to conduct treatment), than by an insurance company apparatchik whose roll it is to provide the shareholders with a 10% return this quarter.

And I don't think that you'll be selling mainstream America with Illich anyway. In fact, I'd say his quote:

'The medical establishment has become a major threat to health'

certainly doesn't single out insurance companies as rescuing angels.

haha, i cant believe that Hastobemoretolife bought that garbage propaganda about "we pay here in the US for the cheap medicine around the world". He must believe everything those corporate hacks put out to excuse their rape of the american people. Especially after it came out that last year the pharmeceutical industry spent 3 times as much on ADVERTISING as it spent on research into new drugs and treatments. The actual pills themselves only cost cents each to make, and that includes the massively expensive (when sold to public) ones as well.
So if anything, americans are getting raped by high prices to pay for..... ADVERTISING TO AMERICANS! seeing as DTC advertising is not legal anywhere else. If you want to talk about reasoning and logic, just once more look at the fact that we are ranked 45th in health world wide, with EVERY SINGLE industrialized nation with social medicine coming in ahead of us for things like Life expectancy, Infant mortality, Levels of disease, etc. These are the stats, and if you dispute them you are going off ideology, NOT reason and logic.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by smokehouseslim we both have each other on those policies as well & yes, we have the the same $0 amount coming out of our pockets for those type of Health Care too which is $0. We're neither rich nor privaleged we just have jobs where the powers that be don't **ck us in the ass with Pine Cones.

You are indeed fortunate, then. I'm not sure if you're saying that you can use your wife's insurance against yours and vice-versa...up here we can't 'double-dip' like that (At least I don't think so). It's either her's or mine. Actually, both would be cool. That's drugs, dental, vision care and such.

Still have to lay out $30 for a PSA test if you aren't covered by private insurance...or already have prostate cancer. For all the good in our system...that blows!

Thanks for the input.

Yes you are correct, say for instance that I have incurred a medical bill they take my cards first to cover & then take my card I have through my wifes plan & that covers the rest. Now there was one time that she had to pay out of pocket on one of her bills ( she is borderline diabetic) but if memory serves me right it was around $10 or $15 & that was for a whole lot of tests that they were doing for some diabetic/pediatric work, still you can't beat that with a stick.

Wow, I understand some of you all...namely the ones who are in support of Universal Health Care. The ones who are vehemently against it, clearly, have never lived in any other country or experienced any life outside of their own comfort box. FYI, google (or use your favorite search engine) world healthcare ratings for 2008. You can also search for the past decade if you want. The U.S. rates 37th consistantly. Canada isnt that far above,but nonetheless,is better. The best two countries are France and Italy and if you have ever been to either one you understand why. If you are sick you are treated like royalty,including inexpensive meds (not cheap! they are all top of the line name brands) they are the same companies that make the meds for good ole U.S. of A.
Folks, I am a simple working american who has had a few blessings in life. One of which is an acute sense of responsibility and common sense. I am not a lawyer,doctor, or politician. I do,however, believe that any person when they put aside scepticism can find the truth within any subject,which is why I am here on this website. Reality is, folks, you already have elements of socialism at work. Fire,Police,ambulance,your representatives,road dept,SOCIAL security, these all are based on the same principals as universal health care. You pay taxes and expect that you will have a policeman show up if you have a breakin or a fireman to put out your fire. Why is it so far fetched to think you can have healthcare when you are gravely ill. God forbid, a physician who cares mor about treating you than wether or not your insurance is going to cover something. Befor you reply to my post DO THE RESEARCH. Dont just come at me like you know it all because a rich man told you so on the news

If only American government wasn't so money hungry and selfish maybe we could do socialized medicine and maybe they will one day, but I think the greediness has gone on for way too long it will be hard to convince them.