Leave your Bibles, Sciences books and Egos at the door, All welcome.

OK I see a lot of these two sided threads/arguments about Creation and Evolution and every time both sides seem to be banging their heads agents the wall.
Both sides resorting to nitpicking at posts and personal attacks and the threads never get to a productive point, just greathening the divide among yourselves.

Lets start off with a list of simple questions which I would like simple answers to
Without referring to your books of Religions/Sciences please. Lets here your own answers and try to use some logic.

1: how do you get a bunch of random atoms to (without intelligence) come together and form an inelegant organism?

2:how can you create something from nothing?

3:how did all that is come in to being without intelligent design?

4:Why are you alive?

5:What is your interpretation of alive?

6:If Aliens put life on earth, who made the Aliens?

7:If evaluation is correct who designed the process? (If you have difficulty answering this one please refer back to questions 1 and 2)

8:Is there the possibility of life outside Earth?

9:Which is more real, what your five seances tell you or the thoughts in your head?

10:If you put a bunch of free atoms in a vacuum and left it for say 50 million years what would you expect the atoms to have done?

That.s all the Questions for now. Try and answer as many as you can without making fun, then we will discus further.

First, I'd like to say you posted some great questions. If we use logic they are easy to answer. If we use theories they can be answered, though maybe questionably.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
1: how do you get a bunch of random atoms to (without intelligence) come together and form an inelegant organism?

No idea.

2:how can you create something from nothing?

You can't.

3:how did all that is come in to being without intelligent design?

Good question. I have no answer for this other than my beliefs.

4:Why are you alive?

I can only answer this from a belief standpoint, you asked we not talk about beliefs.

5:What is your interpretation of alive?

1 word. Consciousness.

6:If Aliens put life on earth, who made the Aliens?

No idea. We have the same issue with the question of God and the "Common Ancestor".

7:If evaluation is correct who designed the process? (If you have difficulty answering this one please refer back to questions 1 and 2)

If we are answering from the standpoint that evolution is correct, there is still no answer for this.

8:Is there the possibility of life outside Earth?

Yes, it's possible. Probable? Not sure.

9:Which is more real, what your five seances tell you or the thoughts in your head?

IMO thoughts, you can change what senses tell you with thought.

10:If you put a bunch of free atoms in a vacuum and left it for say 50 million years what would you expect the atoms to have done?

Nothing.


[edit on 26-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

It is ok to give answers based on your own beliefs based on your own experiences but not based on the works of others as this makes things argumentative and cloudy. But try to keep a link to common logic.

Thank you for your effort.

[edit on 26-3-2009 by ANTHONY33]

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
1: how do you get a bunch of random atoms to (without intelligence) come together and form an inelegant organism?

Nothing is random. Fractal structure of the world IS self evident on every possible level of existance.

Fractal world only looks random...

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
2:how can you create something from nothing?

Because nothingness has no capability to prevent something to come to existance at any given time...

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
3:how did all that is come in to being without intelligent design?

See No. 2

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
4:Why are you alive?

Because that is only possible state besides of being not alive.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
5:What is your interpretation of alive?

Anything which continues to exist and it's capable to improving the odds of doing so.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
6:If Aliens put life on earth, who made the Aliens?

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it, when we meet aliens we will ask, I presume.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
7:If evolution is correct who designed the process? (If you have difficulty answering this one please refer back to questions 1 and 2)

Yep, see numbers 1 and 2.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
8:Is there the possibility of life outside Earth?

Yep.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
9:Which is more real, what your five senses tell you or the thoughts in your head?

There is a consensus on the level of the species (or should I dare to say on planetary one) what is "real" based on both, senses and logical interpretation of those senses...

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
10:If you put a bunch of free atoms in a vacuum and left it for say 50 million years what would you expect the atoms to have done?

In perfectly isolated systems, as physics tells us, Entropy would occur.

Solar system is an perfect example of the opposite. Our Sun, as an enormous source of energy, gives the Earth constant influx of it for millions of years.

In system like this islands of organized matter are possible, should I dare to say inevitable

reply to post by ANTHONY33

1: how do you get a bunch of random atoms to (without intelligence) come together and form an inelegant organism?

My understanding is....

Only through knowledge...
But an "organism" is Not intelligent...

It acts according to the Laws laid down, in its make-up, and environment....

An organism acts in the boundaries of the rules applied to it and the rules of its environment....
But where do the rules come from and what produced these rules of Physics and Chemistry, and How ????

My understanding is that "Intelligence" is of the component called "Consciousness" (but Intelligence is only one of the components of "Consciousness") and not a bunch of atoms or an organism....

I understand Consciousness can exist and does without the Brain....

The Brain is a Encoder/Decoder between the Conscious World and the so called Physical manifestation, we call our environment or Universe....

2:how can you create something from nothing?

You can't (just from "Nothing" at all) but all, I believe has come from the root of "Nothing" including Intelligence.....

This can evolve from "Nothing" if "Nothing" is understood in its Full context...

This is another Subject, and is Not easy to grasp)

3:how did all that is come in to being without intelligent design?

Without ID I don't know!

4:Why are you alive?

If Consciousness is to be accepted as Life, or a part of Life.....
Then Living is perhaps an experience, or function of part of something else...

5:What is your interpretation of alive?

Being Conscious (even without Flesh).....

6:If Aliens put life on earth, who made the Aliens?

The same applies as in the answers to questions 1. to 5.

7:If evaluation is correct who designed the process? (If you have difficulty answering this one please refer back to questions 1 and 2)

Refer to the answers to questions 1. to 5.
Even if Evolution does exist, then there are rules that govern these changes, so evolution as we call it, may be just a small part of the whole story! ???

8:Is there the possibility of life outside Earth?

Yes.... Until it can be proven otherwise or verified as existing....

9:Which is more real, what your five seances tell you or the thoughts in your head?

These are two totally different systems....

Both are important with regard to this experience....

10:If you put a bunch of free atoms in a vacuum and left it for say 50 million years what would you expect the atoms to have done?

Nothing at all, but instead remain according to their original functions, as being inherent in their make up.....

Motivation and course of action and the existence of Time and change, are required for anything to happen....

Please Note these answers are only based on my understanding.....


[edit on 26-3-2009 by The Matrix Traveller]

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
1: how do you get a bunch of random atoms to (without intelligence) come together and form an inelegant organism?

You don't but your asking the wrong question.

2:how can you create something from nothing?

Dunno.

3:how did all that is come in to being without intelligent design?

By chance I'm guessing. Although considering the size of the universe, if anything can be, it will be... somewhere.

4:Why are you alive?

There needs to be a reason? Why does was it raining here intermittently? It just did.

5:What is your interpretation of alive?

MRSGREN

6:If Aliens put life on earth, who made the Aliens?

What a bizarre question.

7:If evaluation [evolution?] is correct who designed the process? (If you have difficulty answering this one please refer back to questions 1 and 2)

It's a natural process, they need to be designed?

8:Is there the possibility of life outside Earth?

Certainly.

9:Which is more real, what your five senses tell you or the thoughts in your head?

Both are just as real, but there are circumstances where both can be deceiving.

10:If you put a bunch of free atoms in a vacuum and left it for say 50 million years what would you expect the atoms to have done?

Depends what they are, how many there are and if they are radioactive. Likely nothing.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33


1: how do you get a bunch of random atoms to (without intelligence) come together and form an inelegant organism?

2:how can you create something from nothing?

3:how did all that is come in to being without intelligent design?

4:Why are you alive?

5:What is your interpretation of alive?

6:If Aliens put life on earth, who made the Aliens?

7:If evaluation is correct who designed the process? (If you have difficulty answering this one please refer back to questions 1 and 2)

8:Is there the possibility of life outside Earth?

9:Which is more real, what your five seances tell you or the thoughts in your head?

10:If you put a bunch of free atoms in a vacuum and left it for say 50 million years what would you expect the atoms to have done?

.

1) YOU don't. The theory of infinite makes it a possibility, however.

2)You can't. However, I wonder what your idea of nothingness is. There truly is no such thing, unless you are speaking of a total vaccuum. Everything has energy, even the air.

3)You ask us to leave religion/science at the door, yet all your questions are obviously religiously based. I can only answer this question with a question: How would some "intelligence" make this come into being?

4)That's the million dollar question, isn't it? Anyone who claims to have an answer is lying.

5)Not sure I understand this question.

6)Another fairly one-sided question. If someone doesnt believe people were "created", why would they possibly believe that aliens were?

7)The process of evaluation? Wow, just wow. I suppose you meant evolution, and your question is not valid. Evolution by definition is not a design, it is adaptation.

8)Possiblity? I think it is down right arrogant to think otherwise. You really think, at the very least, there arent microbial organisms out there in the infinite know as outerspace?

9)Neither is more real than the other, considering you cant have senses without thoughts to interperet them.

10) Once again, infinite and chaos tell us that you could not predict what would happen, and to have expectations is to make any findings invalid, considering that you would be predispostioned to look for one thing more than the other.

This is an interesting premise for a thread. Unfortunately, your religious beliefs are quite visible through the questions you ask and the way you word them, which makes it very hard not to come back at you with arguments against religion.

"Two hands clap and there is a sound; what is the sound of one hand" ~~~Hakuin Ekaku


... Do not confuse the pointing finger with the moon..............

1: how do you get a bunch of random atoms to (without intelligence) come together and form an inelegant organism?
Depends on the definition of "intelligence"... And Life as we know it isn't formed from "random atoms"; however, nobody knows how Life springs out of raw compounds. Science doesn't know, Theists don't know. Nobody knows.

2:how can you create something from nothing?
Think about it really hard until something materializes. That's the only way humans can create physical objects out of nebulous and fleeting ideas, so I would assume that's the way the Universe does it, too.

3:how did all that is come in to being without intelligent design?
Again, depends on the definition of "intelligence"... It's entirely possible that the entire Universe is conscious and simply thinks things into existence, just as humans do it. However, the Universal process may not resemble anything that we recognize as "intelligence."

4:Why are you alive?
Just happens to be the current set of circumstances. Everything is in transition either to Life or to Death. You could ask the same question of a piece of granite, for example, and it would eventually answer you, but you may have to wait several million (or billion) years.

5:What is your interpretation of alive?
"Alive" is that state of existence in which matter is capable of farting.

6:If Aliens put life on earth, who made the Aliens?
The Proto-Aliens? Who knows? Probably some ongoing cycle of panspermia dating back into the unknowable past.

7:If evaluation is correct who designed the process?
Once more, we're attempting to define cosmic and even perhaps divine processes using our human intellect. There may be no "designer" as we understand the term.

8:Is there the possibility of life outside Earth?

Excellent possibility, and even a very good probability. But we may not be able to recognize it as "Life" as we understand it.

9:Which is more real, what your five seances tell you or the thoughts in your head?
I've only been to one "seance," and I wasn't impressed. But if you're talking about the "five senses," there is no difference between your senses and your thoughts. It's all neurochemical circuitry. Our "senses" are just specialized antennae that serve to steer our thoughts.

10:If you put a bunch of free atoms in a vacuum and left it for say 50 million years what would you expect the atoms to have done?
Knowing what I think I know about this Universe, if I expect a specific outcome, there's a very good chance that my expectations will be realized. So, if I expect those free atoms to metamorphose into a chicken pot pie, it'll probably happen.

All questions answered in complete earnest. This is the way the Doctor thinks.

— Doc Velocity

These are good questions that I think anyone who has set beliefs should ask themselves. I could only provide a confident answer to these questions if I could find logical and supported data. But here's some blind theories..

1. I really can't fathom life forming unaided by some kind of intelligence.

2. I'm not really clear what the definition of "nothing" is in this question. If "nothing" means literally the absence of everything, existence as we know it being entirely void, it is a mathematical impossibility. The alternative would be accepting that there has never been a beginning. It's a paradox.

3. I like Doc's answer.

4. I would have to say that "Why" is the most important question anyone can ask. Great question!

5. Conscious existence. If I retain consciousness beyond my body then I would never refer to myself as "dead". That's my view anyway.

6. I have no idea but again, good question if the seeded-life theorists never thought of it..

7. Evolution is adaptation but I understand what you are trying to ask. It is another "why" question. Science isn't ready to answer these kinds of questions. Keep digging with a "why" for any question and you end up without an explanation or are forced to accept that why is ultimately irrelevant and that motivation is purely a human concept.

8. Unknown. No one can give a realistic guess without getting to the bottom of that "origin of life" quandary.

9. I would guess that your senses are more reliable than your thoughts.

10. All I know is that I would need a new vacuum. (I couldn't even guess).

I'm very happy to see this thread argument-free. It makes me want to participate more in these forums. You've asked some very good philosophical questions that everyone should take the time to really think about. There are so many more questions you could have brought up, though.

Egg or Chicken first??????

did God create man in his image, or has man needed to create his gods? Does it matter.......

1: how do you get a bunch of random atoms to (without intelligence) come together and form an inelegant organism?
Find out where we come from.

2:how can you create something from nothing?
Find out where we came from.

3:how did all that is come in to being without intelligent design?
Find out where we came from.

4:Why are you alive?
Find out where we came from.

5:What is your interpretation of alive?
Being able to LOVE and ask; "where we came from" (I can not answer this question for all other lifeforms).

6:If Aliens put life on earth, who made the Aliens?
Find out where we came from.

7:If evaluation is correct who designed the process? (If you have difficulty answering this one please refer back to questions 1 and 2)
Find out where we came from.

8:Is there the possibility of life outside Earth?
YES

9:Which is more real, what your five sences tell you or the thoughts in your head?
Both

10:If you put a bunch of free atoms in a vacuum and left it for say 50 million years what would you expect the atoms to have done?
See ya in 50 milion years!

p.s.
I wasn't making fun. I truly believe that finding out our origine, how ALL came to be, will answer practically ALL your questions with 100% accuracy.


[edit on 27-3-2009 by 2Faced]

Originally posted by ANTHONY3310:If you put a bunch of free atoms in a vacuum and left it for say 50 million years what would you expect the atoms to have done?

That depends what kind of atoms, how many and environmental factors.

If I filled a glass vacuum flask with oxygen and hydrogen atoms and put it on my window I would guess that the energy of the sunlight would slowly cause the O and H to form water vapor.

On the other hand, if I had a very large vacuum flask (say 1 Billion light years across) and filled it with hydrogen then after a long, long time gravity might make some stars!

"1: how do you get a bunch of random atoms to (without intelligence) come together and form an inelegant organism?

2:how can you create something from nothing?

3:how did all that is come in to being without intelligent design?

4:Why are you alive?

5:What is your interpretation of alive?

6:If Aliens put life on earth, who made the Aliens?

7:If evaluation is correct who designed the process? (If you have difficulty answering this one please refer back to questions 1 and 2)

8:Is there the possibility of life outside Earth?

9:Which is more real, what your five seances tell you or the thoughts in your head?

10:If you put a bunch of free atoms in a vacuum and left it for say 50 million years what would you expect the atoms to have done?"

1. No Idea.

2. See Above

3. Through forces we understand like gravity and forces we don't within the quantum universe.

4. Same reason as anything else.

5. Any organism that uses energy from an external source to fuel its growth whilst reacting to the environment around it to survive and pass on its genes. (I can't believe so many people think consciousness is what makes something alive. What about plants and trees?)

6. No Idea.

7. Why would someone/something need to have designed the evolutionary process. Why can't it be random?

8. Absolutely. Like Carl Sagan said it would be an incredible waste of space if Earth was the only inhabitable planet in the universe.

9. Both are as real as each other. Both are just as open to individual interpretation as each other. The correct way to ask the question would be which one should you use to view the world?

10. Depends on the atoms and the forces involved. There are too many variables to give a decent answer IMHO.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Egg or Chicken first??????

Easy one. The confusion arises only in the assumption that there have always been genetically distinct chickens. So, the egg came first. Here's why:

This question asks specifically about a species of bird that we call chicken. But the chicken was some other species before it evolved into a bird that was distinctly chicken. Let's say for the sake of drama that the earlier species had a 3-foot tail, which hindered the bird's survival to some significant degree.

New species evolve out of genetic mutation which occurs on a cellular level, and such mutation is made manifest during embryonic development.

One day the long tailed species of bird that was distinctly not chicken laid an egg with a mutated embryo, an embryo that for the first time ever contained the distinct genetic blueprint of what we call chicken. This mutation was born without a 3-foot tail, a characteristic that enabled it to escape from predators more efficiently, such that it lived longer, eventually passed on its mutated genes, and so established itself as a successful new species.

This was the first chicken.

So, in summation, a distinctly different species of bird gave birth to a mutant offspring that was the first genetically distinct chicken. This mutation was first made manifest in development of the embryo. Therefore, the egg had to come first.

— Doc Velocity




[edit on 3/27/2009 by Doc Velocity]

Perhaps you all may disagree, but I think the OP made some half decent points.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
1: how do you get a bunch of random atoms to (without intelligence) come together and form an inelegant organism?

Nothing is random .
We observe the reaction to better understand the cause.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
2:how can you create something from nothing?

Who knows?
Science AND God fall short of this paradox.
But who said there had to be nothing to begin with?
Why is it more plausible that there was once nothing rather than always something?

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
3:how did all that is come in to being without intelligent design?

How does coal turn into diamond without intelligent design?
Cause/reaction.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
4:Why are you alive?

To live.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
5:What is your interpretation of alive?

Functionality.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
6:If Aliens put life on earth, who made the Aliens?

Evolution.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
7:If evaluation is correct who designed the process? (If you have difficulty answering this one please refer back to questions 1 and 2)

Who designed evolution?
No one. It's a system of cause/reaction, just as our Universe is.
5+5=10
5+5 is the cause, 10 is the reaction.
Does an intelligent being need to write "5+5=10" for it to be so?

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
8:Is there the possibility of life outside Earth?

Absolutely.
There could be thousands of planets similar to Earth.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
9:Which is more real, what your five seances tell you or the thoughts in your head?

Whichever system is less flawed.
In most cases, logic.

Originally posted by ANTHONY33
10:If you put a bunch of free atoms in a vacuum and left it for say 50 million years what would you expect the atoms to have done?

Who knows? Ask the atoms .

I appreciate the motivation behind this thread but unfortunately I see no way of avoiding it degenerating down the same path as all the others in this forum. No matter how hard you try to present a balanced logical argument you will always be pidgeon-holed as being either religiously biased or scientifically biased.

In my opinion, the real question being posed is not whether you subscribe to creation or evolution, but whether intelligent input was required to result in what we have presently.

In keeping within the purpose of this thread, this question needs to be answered based purely on your own personal logic. Forget what religion teaches you, forget what science teaches you. Now this isn't the easiest thing to do, because most of the ideas you have are built using some degree of external input.

All I can do to attempt to answer this question within the personal logic boundary is to consider consciousness. If there is no consciousness, there can be no intelligence, therefore any changes that occur must be purely random. As soon as consciousness comes into being, so to does intelligence and with it, some sort of input in some capacity, to the direction of the change.

It is quite clear to me, consciousness exists now, therefore changes are intelligently guided to some extent at the moment. So at what point did consciousness come into being?

Do individual atoms have consciousness? If so, they must have the capability to control their destiny to some extent. Are they governed by rules dictating their behaviour in different conditions? How did these rules come into being? If rules exist, possibilities are limited and randomness is eliminated.

Food for thought.