Where's the common sense and logic?

I look at the most recent posts, like most users probably do, and lately I see a lot of December 21, 2012 threads. I guess my question is to those believers that think the Bible is junk.

One copy of one Codex that may or MAY NOT be correctly translated , MOST ASSUREDLY written by men and you believe it, you prepare for it, you talk about it as if it were real. Even though every Mayan expert says it is NOT the END of the World it's an Astrological alignment and the next day starts another Baktun, 10 or 13 I forget...

KJV Bible was translated from over 2000 copies gathered up from many nations in over 200 languages that spanned some 3000 years, and there were no differences in them. Some may not have contained every book that the others did but everyone of them that they collected no matter what language, how old where the books were the same were IDENTICAL. The Torah today is the same as the OT in the KJV Bible WORD FOR WORD outside the added words to transliterate from Hebrew to English.

So is it logical to believe that ONE COPY of one MAN WRITTEN PICTURE BOOK that may or may not be translated and transliterated correctly over the KJV Bible. Which again was put together from so many identical copies, in fact no other book can claim what the Bible does. Even the Dead Sea Scrolls, although they contained some OTHER texts had IDENTICAL WORDED complete book of Daniel and others.

Could someone please tell me how this is LOGICAL or DENYING IGNORANCE? I aint flaming anyone, particularly those that believe neither. But you can not say one Codex written by ancient ma is Prophecy and correct and then claim the other with it's multitude of copies s written by ancient man and is crap, that is IGNORANT in my opinion.

There were TONS of errors and discrepincys between the differnt copies of the bible. Why are you so ignorant of this... must be selective memory. Your devine being "GOD" does not exist. He does not listen to your prayers. None are cured and none are healed. So many lies told in churches to those pittifull ignorant people in the congregation. Babies waiting to be fed.

Just do some searching for yourself. i doubt you will though... wouldnt want curiosity to send you to hell.

reply to post by theindependentjournal


People believe what they want to believe.
There's rarely much logic involved with such beliefs, just faith.
And that faith exists because the person wants it to be real.
This is the same with the Bible as well, so I really don't see the difference.

One fable can be copied a thousand times and another just once, it doesn't make the first more accurate...

reply to post by theindependentjournal


I understand what you are asking, and in some scases i would have to think of the way ANY quote, reference, or part of the bible reference is being used.
Some would be acceptable, others would not.
I think its true that parts of nything can and will be lost in translation, espaecially something that old, and contributed by so many nations and langauges.
200 countries, and 2000 contributors, im sure its safe to say some parts are going to vary.
What it boils down to, i guess, is where your stance with then bible originates.
If it starts wityh faith, its blind.
If it starts with fact, obviously it will be biased, because you would be taking it like the bible is fact.

reply to post by Wertdagf


Oh no, is it true? but myself and billions of us thought God was real.
Can we worship you instead because of the great wisdom that you have.
I'll get the word out.
Thanks Wertdagf.

reply to post by theindependentjournal


Actually, you may want to do more research. No Bible Translation or Version were based on original writings. Just copies of copies thousands of time over.

There is much information out there if you truly want to know.

With that said, it doesn't mean the Bible wasn't inspired. But "why" it was - is the question to ask, and why it wasn't recorded accurately. But there are true very worthwhile nuggets in its verses worth researching in a different light.

Originally posted by jon1
Oh no, is it true? but myself and billions of us thought God was real.
Can we worship you instead because of the great wisdom that you have.
I'll get the word out.
Thanks Wertdagf.

Just because many people believe doesn't make it more valid.
Many children believe in Santa Clause...
Many people once believed in Zeus...
Many people once thought the Earth was flat...
Many people once thought the Earth is 6,000 years old..


“The only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history.” Friedrich Hegel

reply to post by TruthParadox


Hey, buddy, I'm with you on this one, i can' believe iv'e had the wool pulled over my eyes all this time.
I should have gone with the minority on this one and took no notice of all the things that i have seen over the years.

Perhaps the matrix is real after all.

The first and only mistake the OP makes is assuming that the topic of 2012 has to do solely with the Mayan calender. Do your research. I don't want to have to list all the possible topics related to this even that is about to occur. ATS has a few thousand threads on this. Nobody claims there will be an end of the world. Again, do your research.

You're selectively taking just one piece of evidence and using it to base your claims. Imagine if your hair was found in a crime scene, and even though there were hundreds of other forensic evidence to prove that you were innocent, the cops went ahead and convicted you of murder, solely based on that single piece of hair. Would that be right?

Don't base your claims solely on the Mayan calender and compare it to something like the Bible. I'm not even going to go into how inaccurate the Bible is about scientific details, because there are a few billion sites out there on that topic. Similarly, there are a few billion sites out there which explain why 2012 is significant.

Research.

[edit on 22-3-2009 by prophetpiggy]

Your OP started me thinking about an old Star Trek episode,

where Enterprise discovered a semi-literate & semi developed colony of people.
I think they were the children of survivors from some pre-Federation space
journey or wishful pioneers.

Kirk & the crew finally figured out that this semi-educated group,
was actually worshiping a text document but they did not pronounce the words correctly, & it sounded nonsensical...
but when Kirk finally got to read the original (to the group) sacred document...he immediately knew it was the 'Constitution'...

With the beginning words "We the people...".,
ol' Kirk began to recite the 'holy' words from memory.. and all the members of this newly found neolithic civilization were amazed with Kirk
& began to think he was some sort of prophet or lord....


the terms similarities & juxtopositions come to mind,
with that TV episode and the 'holy' words of the Bible that many through history have given credence & honor & shed blood for.
(rightly or not, is for yourself to decide)

[edit on 22-3-2009 by St Udio]

Originally posted by jon1
Hey, buddy, I'm with you on this one, i can' believe iv'e had the wool pulled over my eyes all this time.
I should have gone with the minority on this one and took no notice of all the things that i have seen over the years.

Perhaps the matrix is real after all.

Sarcasm for the win!
Not quiet...
I was only pointing out that just because billions of people believe in an invisible deity doesn't mean that deity exists.

It's not about the minority or majority, it's about the truth, and the truth has no allegiance to anything but itself.

You've seen things over the years. Great.
Any person of faith can say that.

reply to post by TruthParadox

You've seen things over the years. Great.
Any person of faith can say that.

Hey, tell me about it.
How was i to know that being a christian would turn me into a compulsive lier.
I mean, i have so much to gain by coming out with these statements, like all the respect and nice things people will say to me.
Someone has a lot to answer for, i tell yer.

Originally posted by jon1

You've seen things over the years. Great.
Any person of faith can say that.

Hey, tell me about it.
How was i to know that being a christian would turn me into a compulsive lier.
I mean, i have so much to gain by coming out with these statements, like all the respect and nice things people will say to me.
Someone has a lot to answer for, i tell yer.

No... you misunderstood.
I'm not saying your lying.
When I was a Christian, I also hand an arsenal of personal experiences.
I wasn't lying about them either, I was just mistaken about the cause.
Believing in anything to such a high degree will have psychological ramifications.
You start pinning everything to God, sometimes even imagine things.
You pray 1,000 times - 1 of those prayers happens to come true, you ignore the 999 and hold that 1 time as absolute proof and then magnify it in your mind.
This is all part of psychology and it's very real.
This is why I say any person of faith can talk about personal experiences.
Just do a google search of personal experiences from Zeus to the boogeyman. Do you think all those people are lying?

reply to post by TruthParadox

No... you misunderstood.
I'm not saying your lying.
When I was a Christian, I also hand an arsenal of personal experiences.
I wasn't lying about them either, I was just mistaken about the cause.

Frozen joints being fully functional instantly after prayer.

A neck with hardley any movement left or right but ten mins after prayer 100% movement is restored.

severe backpain vanishes instantly with prayer

Many, many instances of lesser ailments being cured within minutes of prayer.

Countless cases of inner healing that people have given witness to after prayer.

Depends on what sort of personal experiences you have had.
Me, Iv'e had all the above and more, some are so crazy i won't even mention them.
Demons, entities, Who said that?

The mind can sure play tricks on you.



[edit on 22-3-2009 by jon1]

reply to post by theindependentjournal


Really seems to me that you have an interesting version of biblical history to run with there. Where did you get this idea that there were identical versions in over 100 nations spanning 3000 years? That does not even make sense but anyway...The bible is the most edited and re-authored religious tome there is. Where did you study?

reply to post by jon1


Google "placebo effect".

Also, you say you've had prayers answered, but how many have not been answered?
Are you just picking coincidences of minor things that seemed to work and ignoring all the countless times you prayed and nothing happened?


On a side note, if Christians such as yourself with healing abilities wanted to save lost souls, I wonder why no one has had such events documented in a scientific setting where the patient can be observed and the accuracy can be measured...
I say "save lost souls" because if these things were scientifically documented, there would be many people such as myself who would be far more likely to believe, and then not have to spend eternity in Hell...

Oh well... that's wishful thinking...
People with these abilities will continue to stay hidden for some reason.. wonder why...


[edit on 22-3-2009 by TruthParadox]

reply to post by TruthParadox


OK that is fair and I would agree with you on the faith is faith thing. The point maybe I aint getting across here is the faith, believe as you see fit, but don't be hypocritical in your words or illogical in your thinking.

Believing one item written by men while calling another item written by men as fallacy and hogwash and such is hypocritical and there is no common sense in it as a way of thinking. I don't care if one believes in the Mayan prophecy, but to then say the Bible is hogwash written by a man is oxymoronic, or vice versa.

Both take faith in what is essentially the writings of man or men. And I was not incorrect on how the KJV Bible was put together, I think someone mistook that as there is only one Version of the Bible today, that was not my point. There were basically two versions, the letters and scrolls that were carried to all corners of the globe and carefully recopied when one got old and worn. And there was the Alexandrian Text which the Roman Catholic Bible is based on. The Authorized King James Version was put together very meticulously in that it took many texts from all over the world in many languages and took the common books together into what we have. There were some texts that weren't included either because there was so few of them.

I would never tell a Mayan prophecy believer that he was an idiot because he believed something written by man. I may try to tell them that their clock was round and they thought in cycles and that 2012 just starts another cycle, but I wouldn't throw their belief out because it was written by a man and then claim the Bible absolutely true. How could I and not look hypocritical and moronic?

I aint pushing one religion belief or anything over another here, I am just trying to decipher this train of thought and where it contains any logic. Like I said if you believe neither then good for you, or if you believe one good for you. I am not trying to down anyone's beliefs I am just trying to understand.

I do personally think that this 2012 thing is getting out of hand, and it does come from one copy of one codex as I stated. Again that don't make it wrong but everyone must admit there is only one Dresden Codex. I have a grandson who is only two, I sure hope that 2012 isn't something some are predicting, I want him to have a nice long fulfilling life as I am sure all parents and grandparents want for their young ones.

Search online for 2012 survival packs, LOL you might be surprised. It seems quite a few are taking this seriously and I have noticed a dramatic increase in threads on that topic in here. And it is popping up on lots of tv and other media too all of a sudden.

So no one feels flamed or degraded in any way. I just want to know how it is logical to say one book written by men can NOT be true and another written by men can only be TRUE.

I am sure one can see I am a Bible believer from my posts. I often see in threads on the Bible in ATS people saying it's just a book written by men and I put to much stock in it as a source. Yet I see Mayan Prophecies and Nostradamus and many other things written by men that are then touted as good sources by the very same people who denounce the possibility of the Bible. Those that take NO stock in anything written by men that requires faith are at least not hypocritical in their thinking. I hope that cleared it up for those that didn't get it.

reply to post by theindependentjournal


I agree, there's really no proof for any of it, so one belief is not above another.
As for the 2012 thing, I don't buy it, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a major terrorist attack between now and then (probably just my paranoia talking) - there's nothing wrong with being prepared at any rate .

Actually, the whole bible is true and here is why.

If anyone of you were to actually read the Hebrew and Greek you would understand that the bible is your story.

The names in the bible for instance are names to the English reader, but not so in the texts they were penned in. The best way I can put this is the names are exactly like American Indian names. They are verbs, not nouns. God has no respect for individuals, only actions and that is why it is said. "Those who DO my will are my people". When you do his will, you are his will. His will is that you first love your whole body mind and spirit (him) and make him holy...which means Healthy. Second is you love your neighbor as yourself...see first commandment.

The names read as actions in the penned languages. King James took advantage of the printing press for political reasons not so that people could be set free but the opposite. Kings always know the power of media. This is apparent in the King James Version, as God always leaves a way out that men usually don't see.

Have you never asked yourself why only key words in the bible are "through translated" such as "Golgotha=The skull" or "Emmanuel Louis" Webster with us....? Sorry, couldn't resist. Another is Talitha koumi meaning "little girl" or Eloi, Eloi lama Sabachthani meaning "my god, my god, why have you forsaken me? or even Rabbi meaning Teacher.

These marks were left for you to see and not pass over, but to make you go..."Hey, I wonder what the rest of the words mean?"

God teaches here a little there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept....Baby steps...just like Bob.

The books are sealed to the average reader as Jesus says, "to those on the inside it is given to know the secrets of heaven, but to those on the outside everything must come in parables."....So it does. Read the English alone and you are getting the parable and will never know what is actually being said. You'll get the Lucifer version, the guy on the cross and the one who is Marking you well. That's the side of Jesus he warned you about...I'd listen to him...after all, he's you. You bare the light till you see it and call it good.

Just like every thing else, all the things you need are right in front of you. You just don't recognize them. It doesn't matter how many english copies match, you will never get the meat, just the pudding and you can't have your pudding if you don't eat your meat.

As every believer has heard, it is serious not a joke, you are to beware of the scribes and pharisees (lawyers and religious separatists) yet people pay no attention and blindly walk off the cliff...God said it, I believe it because ignorance and self righteousness is bliss....Blind Faith is still Blind, faith or not.

Here is one source I use if anyone is interested. scripture 4 all Skeptics, check out a chapter and see for yourself how this story is about you, not people in the past....it's the LIVING WORD...Timeless, but only in what it was written down in. At least, the closest thing we have to it, but the difference will set you free, because as I said, Blind Faith isn't Faith...it's blind.

God is true. If it can't be seen, touched looked at and not hidden, it isn't true. Christians, wouldn't it be nice to actually be able to tell some one about God and not be embarrassed having to argue with people about non existent things? Read the word in the languages they were penned in and you will never be embarrassed again. You will want to shout it to everyone, because Christianity has nothing to do with Christ, just an Idol and a debt you are going to pay, after all you've sent a man to death and God requires your blood for that. Don't be fooled anymore...

Some are going to feel this is some sort of New Age thing and I just can not for the life of me understand why someone would not want to know what someone was actually saying in trade for the loosest translation that can't even express the original thoughts AT ALL. Knowing the English will speed you along in understanding the original, but not knowing the original will send you to your deaths...He never came to you if you know him, only to those who didn't know him does he show Grace. If you say you know him, yet don't know his word...you will be held accountable and you will learn doctrine...just a matter of time and that you can not escape, just ask Captain Hook...tick....tock....tick....tock....that old alligator.

Peace

For those who keep repeating that the bible is the most edited book ever printed, have you heard of the dead sea scrolls? Some of those texts date to pre-AD and are very close if not word for word in some cases with the "published" versions of the bible.

While it is true that the romans removed some of the books before creating the bible and pushing it as it is today. The fact is, it is a close representation of the original texts minus the missing books.

The Dead Sea Scrolls (the revised complete translations) shows these books and other additional texts not in the bible. One difference in them is that some of the stories have more details than the bible versions but the song remains the same.